Pro Football Focus… Bills now have number 4 oline in the league

[78thealltimegreat]

The Top Ten for the entire season so far is 

1. The Philadelphia Eagles

2. The Detroit Lions

3. Baltimore Ravens 

4. Buffalo Bills

5. Atlanta Falcons

6. Dallas Cowboys

7. Denver Broncos

8. Indianapolis Colts

9. Minnesota Vikings

10. Las Vegas Raiders

 

This the highest the Bills have ever rated out for a season on oline since PFF started their grading system. I’m sure Josh being as elusive helps but an honorable mention and hats off to Aaron Kromer guy can definitely coach an oline. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

They have really played well together.   Demonstrates lack of injuries and what continuity on the line accomplished. Thank GOD we actually tried to upgrade the guard position, next year Center has to be a priority.  

Edited December 29, 2023 by RoyBatty is alive

[dma0034]

Credit Kromer and the the fact they've been healthy all year for this.

 

O'Cyrus Torrence has been great in Year 1

[strive_for_five_guy]

PFF is really top notch

[boyst]

Baltimores line is very good but Lamar does wonders to keep that pocket dynamic. The way the line and Lamar work together is incredible!

[Virgil]

39 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

PFF is really top notch

We’ve never said a bad word about them!  High class organization over there 

[LeGOATski]

41 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

PFF is really top notch

Hey buddy.....one man's trash is another man's treasure 

[PBF81]

They've been very very good this season! 

 

A huge part of that is the chemistry, both week-to-week as well as overall.  

 

If we look at the Snap Counts for the 5 starting OL-men, they're all above 96%.  Those are the top-5 snap counts on the team, offensively, defensively, STs, anything.  

 

It's remarkable that they've all stayed injury-free.  

 

 

[Augie]

19 minutes ago, boyst said:

Baltimores line is very good but Lamar does wonders to keep that pocket dynamic. The way the line and Lamar work together is incredible!

 

Lamar and Josh must be HUGE advantages when it comes to grading an OL. 

[MrEpsYtown]

Not a PFF guy, the fact that the Browns aren’t up there is ridiculous.
 

But, Connor McGovern has been the key in my opinion. I loved the pickup and felt there was untapped potential there and he has been a perfect fit on the left side. His presence also helps Dion to a certain degree. Dion is having an awesome year. I thought they would out him on the right side, I was wrong there and his left side movements are very natural. 
 

I was very much against the Torrence in the 1st round idea, but in the second it was a no brainer. I think he has played very well, obviously has had some ups and downs, but really can’t ask for more from a plug and play starter. 
 

Whipping boy Spencer Brown has been excellent as well. Having Torrence next to him helps, but man Brown has really come around. 
 

Morse is the anchor and playing well, his flaws in the power game are still the same, but the fact that he is probably our worst linemen at this point and his play hasn’t changed much just goes to how how much the players around him have improved. 

I certainly have to give Kromer credit as well. 

[Warcodered]

17 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Lamar and Josh must be HUGE advantages when it comes to grading an OL. 

Right that last play against the Chargers much.

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

Numbers 5 and 7-10 means this does not correlate to well placed playoff position.

 

[Aussie Joe]

I was a big critic of Spencer Brown this last offseason … but he has been good this season and has justified Beane ‘s faith.

 

I thought for sure they would be looking at a Tackle early in the 2024 draft … but there is no urgency now …

 

Going to be interesting how the Tackle situation plays out beyond next season as both Dawkins and Brown are off contract …

 

I think Dawkins might have another 2-3 years left in him, and I assume he will give them a hometown discount …so hope he takes a 2 yr extension this offseason…

 

Hope Brown stays as well… as he probably hasn’t peaked yet…

 

What’s his price tag gunna be ? Will Mitch Morse money ($9-10m a year)  get it done? 

[Kwai San]

What the Bills need is an "identical" O'Cyrus type replacement for Center in this years draft.  Gonna be a hard pick @ 31.

 

Go Bills!!! 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

So now we like PFF again ?

[oldmanfan]

Never place much stock in PFF.  My own eyes tell me our line’s been pretty good, especially in the run game.  Still some issues in pass protection but having Josh’s mobility helps there.

 

I’d continue to emphasize O line in the draft.  Build from inside out.  And Bates will take Morse’s spot next year for cap considerations.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, dma0034 said:

O'Cyrus Torrence has been great in Year 1

 

Not really. Good rookie year for sure but he's been our weak link IMO.

 

Here are the individual PFF grades for each member of the OL:

 

Dawkins 73.7

McGovern 58.9

Morse 64.5

Torrence 56.6

Brown 69.2

 

Very good on the edges, but slightly below average on the interior.

 

I think two things are helping our ranking here:

1) Continuity. I can't remember the last time the Bills had so many consecutive games with the same starting 5. IIRC McGovern missed the first game, but otherwise the starting 5 has never changed. That is massively important. I doubt more than a couple other teams have this advantage.

2) Relative lack of good OL play across the league. The individual rankings above don't scream "top 5 OL" but most teams have just average OLs right now. I doubt there is a ton of separation between say the 5th best OL and the 20th best OL, at least not enough to make a real difference. There are a couple extremes at both ends and then a lot of average in the middle.

[Captain_Quint]

Take the Eagles out and put the 49ers in that place and you have the 4 best teams in the league. 

1 hour ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

PFF is really top notch

Love those guys!! 

[Dr. Who]

43 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Not a PFF guy, the fact that the Browns aren’t up there is ridiculous.
 

But, Connor McGovern has been the key in my opinion. I loved the pickup and felt there was untapped potential there and he has been a perfect fit on the left side. His presence also helps Dion to a certain degree. Dion is having an awesome year. I thought they would out him on the right side, I was wrong there and his left side movements are very natural. 
 

I was very much against the Torrence in the 1st round idea, but in the second it was a no brainer. I think he has played very well, obviously has had some ups and downs, but really can’t ask for more from a plug and play starter. 
 

Whipping boy Spencer Brown has been excellent as well. Having Torrence next to him helps, but man Brown has really come around. 
 

Morse is the anchor and playing well, his flaws in the power game are still the same, but the fact that he is probably our worst linemen at this point and his play hasn’t changed much just goes to how how much the players around him have improved. 

I certainly have to give Kromer credit as well. 

You're one of the fellas I look to for insight on the o-line. Thanks for this.

[billsfan89]

In addition to the obvious upgrades at guard the complete turn around of Brown has massively helped. Brown was one of the worst tackles in the league last year. This season after a shaky start he has become a good RT. Dawkins has also turned in a much better season. Mitch has also been Mitch and that’s a good thing in terms of quality of play.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

Lamar and Josh must be HUGE advantages when it comes to grading an OL. 

 

 

Definitely---Josh is #9 in QB knockdowns, tied for 5th in QB hurries and tied for 34th in time in the pocket.

 

Almost any other QB behind this line would be taking a much bigger beating.  Josh makes them look pretty good. 

[Don Otreply]

32 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

So now we like PFF again ?

Nah, we’ve never liked them…, 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

But I heard that we have all turnstyles at our O-line! /s

 

2 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

They have really played well together.   Demonstrates lack of injuries and what continuity on the line accomplished. Thank GOD we actually tried to upgrade the guard position, next year Center has to be a priority.  

I think it has to happen. I like Morse fine, but he'll be 32, in the last year of his contract and offering an $8.5 M cap savings if we cut him. Center is part of my big 3 needs for the offseason shopping (#2 WR and then C and S)

[HOUSE]

Could have been better with Cody Ford

But nooooooo.......

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I stopped at PFF 

[Rocky Landing]

I'm confused... do we like PFF now...?

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Where the hell is Cleveland? Absurd they're not in the top 10.

[Sierra Foothills]

45 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I think two things are helping our ranking here:

1) Continuity. I can't remember the last time the Bills had so many consecutive games with the same starting 5. IIRC McGovern missed the first game, but otherwise the starting 5 has never changed. That is massively important. I doubt more than a couple other teams have this advantage.

2) Relative lack of good OL play across the league. The individual rankings above don't scream "top 5 OL" but most teams have just average OLs right now. I doubt there is a ton of separation between say the 5th best OL and the 20th best OL, at least not enough to make a real difference. There are a couple extremes at both ends and then a lot of average in the middle.

 

3) Very good O-Line Coach in Aaron Kromer

4) Elite Quarterback in Josh Allen. Arguably the most difficult QB in the NFL to sack.

 

2 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Where the hell is Cleveland? Absurd they're not in the top 10.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Sierra Foothills

[Charles Romes]

Knock on wood, I have never seen an oline stay this healthy for so long. Not sure if any of the starting 5 have missed a snap due to injury. Need to leverage this into a Lombardi. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Charles Romes

[SWATeam]

27 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Definitely---Josh is #9 in QB knockdowns, tied for 5th in QB hurries and tied for 34th in time in the pocket.

 

Almost any other QB behind this line would be taking a much bigger beating.  Josh makes them look pretty good. 

He also holds the ball longer than anyone.

[Billy Claude]

8 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Where the hell is Cleveland? Absurd they're not in the top 10.

 

I assume the Browns aren't there due to all the injuries on their offensive line.  They have lost both starting tackles and their top backup tackle for the season.  Their stats haven't been great, tied for 8th most sacks allowed (though one extra game) and  22nd in yards per rush.

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 hour ago, LeGOATski said:

Hey buddy.....one man's trash is another man's treasure 

[Goin Breakdown]

Didn't they just give Josh the highest Qb rating too?  Just let me know if I like PFF again....er, I mean for the first time. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 hours ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Where the hell is Cleveland? Absurd they're not in the top 10.

4 of their 5 starters have missed time. Both starting OT are on seaon ending IR. Their starting LT has been a turnstile all year.  The OT situation was so bad at one point they were talking about kicking all world guard Bitonio out to LT. 

[CSBill]

4 hours ago, boyst said:

Baltimores line is very good but Lamar does wonders to keep that pocket dynamic. The way the line and Lamar work together is incredible!

 
3 of the top 4 all have mobile dynamic QB’s, that helps a bunch. 

[Ralonzo]

5 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

They have really played well together.   Demonstrates lack of injuries and what continuity on the line accomplished. Thank GOD we actually tried to upgrade the guard position, next year Center has to be a priority.  

 

Bills have an adequate stopgap in Bates and a potential long term starter in Anderson. They're going to be fine.

[SoCal Deek]

I have to question any list where only the top two teams have the word “the” in front of the city. Very suspicious. 

[BearNorth]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Definitely---Josh is #9 in QB knockdowns, tied for 5th in QB hurries and tied for 34th in time in the pocket.

 

Almost any other QB behind this line would be taking a much bigger beating.  Josh makes them look pretty good. 

Bills have given up 20 sacks on the season which is best in the league.  They have recorded 50 sacks, which is 3rd in the league. 

 

Top five teams in net sacks are: Bills, +30; Dolphins,+25;Chiefs, +23; Ravens, +18; 49ers, +15 - these are all top teams.

[C.Biscuit97]

4 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Not a PFF guy, the fact that the Browns aren’t up there is ridiculous.
 

But, Connor McGovern has been the key in my opinion. I loved the pickup and felt there was untapped potential there and he has been a perfect fit on the left side. His presence also helps Dion to a certain degree. Dion is having an awesome year. I thought they would out him on the right side, I was wrong there and his left side movements are very natural. 
 

I was very much against the Torrence in the 1st round idea, but in the second it was a no brainer. I think he has played very well, obviously has had some ups and downs, but really can’t ask for more from a plug and play starter. 
 

Whipping boy Spencer Brown has been excellent as well. Having Torrence next to him helps, but man Brown has really come around. 
 

Morse is the anchor and playing well, his flaws in the power game are still the same, but the fact that he is probably our worst linemen at this point and his play hasn’t changed much just goes to how how much the players around him have improved. 

I certainly have to give Kromer credit as well. 

Cleveland’s 2 starting OTs, 1st rounders and awesome, have been out most of the year. It is absolutely amazing what that coaching staff is doing right now. 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

From my own film, generally speaking on the year:

 

Dawkins and McGovern have been solid. They are outplaying their contracts, which is always a good thing. Remember when 80% of people in preseason were bashing Dawkins saying he was lazy and out of shape. Where’d they go?  McGovern might be the FA signing of the year, and quietly goes about his business (just like a good guard should!)

 

Mitch Morse is a good player, but no doubt on the back end of his run. I think he might have one more in him, but wonder if the Bills should try to upgrade here before they are late and need to. He’s been a staple for this team, but does not seem to be able to hold up against some of the more athletic or sizable DTs. It makes sense as he gets older, and given his concussion injury, this will be an interesting piece to watch as the offseason commences. 

 

Torrence has been good to average, but for a year one guy who filled right in, you have to like what you have so far. He’s been a road grater, but a bit heavy footed at times and gets beat across his face. He had a pretty poor day vs LA IMO. Lots to like, but not an all pro…yet! I think he could be one day.

 

Brown continues to worry me because of his inability to move and bend in terms of pass protection. He has been great in the run game. Earlier this year Torrence and Brown were having trouble picking up stunts on the right side of the line, but it seems they have improved. As others have stated, he isn’t a complete liability as he seemed last year. 

 

As others have mentioned, continuity this year has been solid. This is definitely the best OL we’ve ever had under Allen. We can run the ball better, and pass protection is good enough especially with Allen’s ability to make people miss.

 

Side Note: David Edwards gets a nod here too, playing significant snaps this year aiding in both the run game and pass pro. Guys like him, Gilliam, Murray and more go unnoticed often but play a larger piece of the puzzle that we might expect.

 

Extended side note: one of my frustrations with this offense right now is the personnel usage, which often leads to our best success on the ground, features guys (previously stated above) that take snaps away from Kincaid, Shakir, even Cook. Brady loves mixing these groupings in and you really just do not know what to expect from play to play with this offense in terms of formations and personnel. I do wonder how much of this variability impacts the amount of routes and targets some of our best pass catchers are getting. 
 

All good things to like for the Bills up front. Next season seems to be the return of this same group. All these guys are under contracts through next year. 

46 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Cleveland’s 2 starting OTs, 1st rounders and awesome, have been out most of the year. It is absolutely amazing what that coaching staff is doing right now. 

Helps a ton when your interior (Bitonio-Pocic-Teller) are all monsters. 

1 hour ago, Ralonzo said:

 

Bills have an adequate stopgap in Bates and a potential long term starter in Anderson. They're going to be fine.

I’m wondering if Bates is in their plans at C next season, in the event they feel they can shave $$ from Morse without losing too much talent. They signed him to a 4 year deal for a reason, and I imagine they always envisioned him potentially playing significant snaps at some point for this team.