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What's Wrong With The Passing O?


Donuts and Doritos

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2 hours ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

Passing O. has looked off ever since the Philly game (has actually looked off a lot of the season). Philly game is the last game w/ more than 1 passing TD.

 

What's the problem? (Is it Josh, Brady, the Playmakers or something else)? Here's the player game stats (in order of top catchers on the team this season):

 

Josh Allen:

                    Yds.      TD.    Int

NE.    15/30  169         0       1

LA.    15/21.  237.        1.       1

DAL.   7/15.     94.       1.       0

KC.   23/42.  233.       1.       1

PHIL 29/51.   339.       2.      1

 

1. Diggs:

                      Yds.       TD

NE.    4/7.       26.         0

LA.    5/8.       29.         0

DAL. 4/5.        48.         0

KC.   4/11.       24.         0

PHIL 6/11.       74.         1

 

2. Davis:

                      Yds.       TD

NE.    2/3.       21.         0

LA.    4/6.      130.        1

DAL.  0/1.          0.        0

KC.    0/2.         0.        0

PHIL  6/12.     105.       1

 

3. Kincaid:

                      Yds.       TD

NE.    4/7.       87.         0

LA.    1/2.         7.          0

DAL.  0/2.         0.         0

KC.    5/8.       21.         0

PHIL  5/6.       38.         0

 

4. Shakir:

                      Yds.       TD

NE.    4/4.       39.         0

LA.    3/3.       45.         0

DAL.  0/1.          0.         0

KC.     1/1.        12.         0

PHIL  3/5.       47.          0

 

5. Cook:

                      Yds.       TD

NE.    1/3.       -4.         0

LA.    0/0.         0.         0

DAL. 2/3.        42.         1

KC.    5/5.       83.         1

PHIL  6/7.        57.         0

 

6. Knox:

                      Yds.       TD

NE.    No stats registered

LA.    2/2.       26.         0

DAL.  No stats registered 

KC.    3/3.       36.         0

PHIL  Didn't play

 

Harty:  1 catch 25 yds KC game

Murray: 1 catch 21 yds KC game

             3 catch 18 yds Phil game

Sherfield: 1 catch 9 yds KC game

 

(Source: https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/buf/buffalo-bills)


Nobody wants to hear this but a big reason is JOSH ALLEN.   You head that right….JOSH ALLEN.  This is the hard truth no one wants to admit.  You can blame the HC, the OC, the OL, the WR but he is the franchise QB and you need him to flat out play better when everything isn’t perfect.    Fans here will blame anyone except the person who deserves the most blame.  
 

He just is not reading defenses and missing open receivers.  He’s also been off target of deep throws and this was on full display today.   I’m not sure if he’s injured or what, but he has not played well
 

This is not to mention the turnovers.  That INT today was a first down throw.  It wasn’t an “arm punt” on 3rd down.  
 

The second issue is the receivers.  It’s been the same issue as last season.  When defense clamp down on Diggs (or if he can’t get open) no one else gets separation.  Davis struggles with this.  Shakir can be schemed open but a Josh doesn’t always see him.  Kincaid is good but maybe not ready to step up as a rookie.  
 

With this crew you also have the issues with drops which has been a killer.  This extends to the RB’s like Cook and Murray as well.  
 

Finally it’s the scheme.  I’m not ready to put this all on Brady.  He’s running a lot what Dorsey spent 1.5 years designing and building.  He can’t throw it all out mid year and start from scratch.    
 

The scheme in Buffalo with the talent on the roster probably isn’t the best way to maximize Josh’s talent.    I’m not sure if Brady is the right guy but the Bills will need an OC to design a system around Josh and have a commitment to improve the offense skill players.  

40 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

In your mind.

He’s right Dorsey was a big problem.  Brady is running Dorsey’s offense using his personnel and likely many of his calls and concepts.

 

But perhaps both were held back by the lack of talent at WR outside of Diggs and perhaps from Josh himself who can be hit or miss

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1 hour ago, Drew21PA said:

That one was huge

 

a couple other first down receptions Josh our right on the hands in the right soot

 

but that Murray one was annoying 

To be honest, there’s been a lot drops that have just killed drives.  I think this speaks to the talent more than anything.  This is one part of the issue 

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I think it's difficult to be all things, especially with such an enforced transition mid-season. We've had to make a running game work, and quickly, and on the hoof. And it's worked. And now the passing game is suffering a bit. But we can work all this through, one game at a time, we've shown it already. We can't give up on this Bills team, mainly because they keep identifying their weaknesses (for the most part) and overcoming them as they go.

 

After we win the superbowl, we'll probably be ready for the playoffs. 

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How much of today's offensive dysfunction was the work of the dark lord Belichick? Was it one last spell cast by Belichick to once again mess with a Bills QB? I mean he's been doing it for 33 years since the Giants SB. Even with a beat up cast of scrubs, Belichick gets the best out of his players when it comes to the Bills. I can only hope that was the last time that we ever see him as a coach!

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9 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

How much of today's offensive dysfunction was the work of the dark lord Belichick? Was it one last spell cast by Belichick to once again mess with a Bills QB? I mean he's been doing it for 33 years since the Giants SB. Even with a beat up cast of scrubs, Belichick gets the best out of his players when it comes to the Bills. I can only hope that was the last time that we ever see him as a coach1

Very little. Last week, something called a “Gif Smith” also had our offense looking shaky.

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54 minutes ago, JohnNord said:


Nobody wants to hear this but a big reason is JOSH ALLEN.   You head that right….JOSH ALLEN.  This is the hard truth no one wants to admit.  You can blame the HC, the OC, the OL, the WR but he is the franchise QB and you need him to flat out play better when everything isn’t perfect.    Fans here will blame anyone except the person who deserves the most blame.  
 

He just is not reading defenses and missing open receivers.  He’s also been off target of deep throws and this was on full display today.   I’m not sure if he’s injured or what, but he has not played well
 

This is not to mention the turnovers.  That INT today was a first down throw.  It wasn’t an “arm punt” on 3rd down.  
 

The second issue is the receivers.  It’s been the same issue as last season.  When defense clamp down on Diggs (or if he can’t get open) no one else gets separation.  Davis struggles with this.  Shakir can be schemed open but a Josh doesn’t always see him.  Kincaid is good but maybe not ready to step up as a rookie.  
 

With this crew you also have the issues with drops which has been a killer.  This extends to the RB’s like Cook and Murray as well.  
 

Finally it’s the scheme.  I’m not ready to put this all on Brady.  He’s running a lot what Dorsey spent 1.5 years designing and building.  He can’t throw it all out mid year and start from scratch.    
 

The scheme in Buffalo with the talent on the roster probably isn’t the best way to maximize Josh’s talent.    I’m not sure if Brady is the right guy but the Bills will need an OC to design a system around Josh and have a commitment to improve the offense skill players.  

He’s right Dorsey was a big problem.  Brady is running Dorsey’s offense using his personnel and likely many of his calls and concepts.

 

But perhaps both were held back by the lack of talent at WR outside of Diggs and perhaps from Josh himself who can be hit or miss

Gotta agree 

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1 hour ago, JohnNord said:


Nobody wants to hear this but a big reason is JOSH ALLEN.   You head that right….JOSH ALLEN.  This is the hard truth no one wants to admit.  You can blame the HC, the OC, the OL, the WR but he is the franchise QB and you need him to flat out play better when everything isn’t perfect.    Fans here will blame anyone except the person who deserves the most blame.  
 

He just is not reading defenses and missing open receivers.  He’s also been off target of deep throws and this was on full display today.   I’m not sure if he’s injured or what, but he has not played well
 

This is not to mention the turnovers.  That INT today was a first down throw.  It wasn’t an “arm punt” on 3rd down.  
 

The second issue is the receivers.  It’s been the same issue as last season.  When defense clamp down on Diggs (or if he can’t get open) no one else gets separation.  Davis struggles with this.  Shakir can be schemed open but a Josh doesn’t always see him.  Kincaid is good but maybe not ready to step up as a rookie.  
 

With this crew you also have the issues with drops which has been a killer.  This extends to the RB’s like Cook and Murray as well.  
 

Finally it’s the scheme.  I’m not ready to put this all on Brady.  He’s running a lot what Dorsey spent 1.5 years designing and building.  He can’t throw it all out mid year and start from scratch.    
 

You forgot almost immediate pressure up the middle on a number of plays.  Nothing hamstrings a QB like interior pressure.  Allen avoids the sack in ways that only a couple of other QB's can and then tries to make a throw while running for his life or getting clobbered as he releases the ball. Most QB's would have been sacked 3 or 4 more times today then Allen was.  Ditto for the last game. 

 

Amazingly Allen's accuracy seems quite good when he actually has a pocket to throw from.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

This is not to mention the turnovers.  That INT today was a first down throw.  It wasn’t an “arm punt” on 3rd down.  

 

That pass was so incredibly bad today... Should have never been thrown. But there was a slight opportunity if the ball is out quicker and it's a rope. Instead he's late and he lofts it up there so soft it's an easy INT... Totally agree on the 1st down point as well... Embarrassing... He HAS to be better yet he keeps doing these stupid...Just dumb things... It's so incredibly frustrating because, like most of you, this is my favorite player ever... Even more than any of the late 80's-90's Bills. But it is what it is at this point. 

 

The INT across his body vs SD was also a terrible decision. Both those INT's were at points of the game where you get a sustained drive for points and you can take a BIG step putting the game away early. But instead you give the other team life. And he's done that so much this year it's more than troubling. I'm not sure I can take another year like this....lol

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13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

But also,  Brady has killed the pass game in general.    Everybody but Cook looks worse in the pass game with Brady than they had with Dorsey.   The sample size is just small enough and people are still feeling sated about the Dorsey firing that they haven't gotten around to their pitchforks just yet.     

 

On the broadcast, they showed the run-pass play-calling between the 2 OC's.  Dorsey was 46% run to 54%...but Brady is 53 to 47 in his 6 games.

 

Looking at current defensive ranks, Dorsey faced 6 teams ranked in the bottom third of (EDIT: pass defenses) and only twice ran it more than 50%.  Brady's faced mostly mid-ranked (EDIT: pass) defenses and run it 50% or more 4 times. 

 

Brady's delivering on the HC's desire for a balanced and safer offense, but they're more predictable.  Of course, the passing game would be better if they'd invest in WR's more, but almost no one knew Gabe and their group of WR3-5 would disappoint. ;)   

Edited by BillsVet
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Might need @HoofHearted to explain what is going on here.

 

The All-22 will come out and reveal some.

 

I thought the offensive line got whipped in the first half.

 

Josh with the 0% brains interception.

 

I have no idea what’s going on with Diggs. Allen hits him on that 91-yarder and all the stats look better. But that’s just other long ones to Diggs this year that haven’t connected.

 

Not sure what the game plan was this week. Sometimes we use Cook down the field as a pass catcher, most times we don’t. 
 

Another quiet one from Gabe, he did have that nice 3rd-Down conversion. He seems to really be a broken coverage long touchdown/deep throw, or nothing. 

 

I think Sherfield is useless. There is really no roster room for Shorter, but couldn’t they just waive Sherfield and put Shorter in that a slot?

 

Allen was not sharp. Too often everywhere but hitting WRs in stride. Guys having to reach low, high, behind to dive at the ground for balls. 
 

Knox with a drop on a 10-yard rocket, Cook with a drop, Murray with a drop. 

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4 hours ago, The 9 Isles said:

I think the YAC issue is mainly to do with Allen’s ball placement. He rarely hits a receiver in stride and leads a lot of throws out of bounds. I understand that some of that is designed to prevent turnovers but at the same time there are receivers on occasion open and either have to slow down or adjust or get over thrown. 

Guys are constantly have to reach behind, high, 2-mm above the carpet, dive on the turf.

 

The placement was all over today. 
 

He used the same phrase today as he has before - feeling good coming out of the hand. 

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I think maybe we have seen the rest of the NFL catch up to the Daboll offense and perhaps specifically the things that give Allen trouble defensively.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if we went in a different direction offensively in the off-season. Seems like we have been getting diminishing returns offensively each year since 2020.

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Just now, Big Turk said:

I think maybe we have seen the rest of the NFL catch up to the Daboll offense and perhaps specifically the things that give Allen trouble defensively.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if we went in a different direction offensively in the off-season. Seems like we have been getting diminishing returns offensively each year since 2020.

Yes this is a good point.

 

The personnel limitations have been well documented.

 

But this is the hand Brady the OC job now thread, and I said back then - no, you have to conduct a real coaching search and if he wins the job against real competition, fine, but the interim tag should not just be removed. 

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1 hour ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

That pass was so incredibly bad today... Should have never been thrown. But there was a slight opportunity if the ball is out quicker and it's a rope. Instead he's late and he lofts it up there so soft it's an easy INT... Totally agree on the 1st down point as well... Embarrassing... He HAS to be better yet he keeps doing these stupid...Just dumb things... It's so incredibly frustrating because, like most of you, this is my favorite player ever... Even more than any of the late 80's-90's Bills. But it is what it is at this point. 

 

The INT across his body vs SD was also a terrible decision. Both those INT's were at points of the game where you get a sustained drive for points and you can take a BIG step putting the game away early. But instead you give the other team life. And he's done that so much this year it's more than troubling. I'm not sure I can take another year like this....lol

He def missed throws today and the INT actually annoyed me less than some of the other throws he missed.  Safety made a nice play on that pick baiting him into it 

21 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

I think maybe we have seen the rest of the NFL catch up to the Daboll offense and perhaps specifically the things that give Allen trouble defensively.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if we went in a different direction offensively in the off-season. Seems like we have been getting diminishing returns offensively each year since 2020.

Feels like the nfl has caught up to nearly everyone’s offense this year 😂

 

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I'm starting to think schemes are a major problem. When Brady was new it threw teams off a bit but now they are already catching up to it because the last 2 weeks were no different from anything that Dorsey has done

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Josh is back to having happy feet. I'm not saying he's breaking the pocket and running, though sometimes he is. He has plays where he could plant and through, but he is hoping around and not throwing from a solid base. IMO that is a big reason for many of the passes being off. The WRs aren't doing him any favors either. The only one I've seen pick up slack for a not great ball has been Shakir. 

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6 hours ago, Peter said:

 

Pesky facts:

 

 

Second Best Offense 2022

 

As for wins and losses this year, how many “game losing drives” did our defense give up this year when Dorsey was our OC?!? If our defense could protect the lead, we already would have qualified for the playoffs and could have or be fighting for the number one seed.

 

How many turnovers did the offense give up? (You probably would want to blame that on him as well)

 

You can have the last word on this. I know that is important to you. I am not going to respond because I have better things to do on New Year’s Eve than argue with someone who has a biased agenda.

 

Happy New Year.

 


So you ignored the facts I see and went on with a weird crusade for a well deserved fired coordinator.  
 

I find it funny when you few Dorsey defenders refuse to acknowledge that his season totals were skewed by 2 and a half games of football (2nd half of week 2, week 3, and Miami week 4) while the other 7 1/2 games were atrocious showings by his offense.  
 

Brady has got the offense avg 8 points more per game and is 5-1 in those 6 games compared to the 2-4 Dorsey offense against weak defenses that avg 20 PPG.  
 

Going back to last season, Dorsey faced Jets 3 times and the offense avg 17 PPG and was 1-2 vs them.  Brady’s first game against Jets we put up 34 in 3 quarters and benched our starters for the 4th in the blow out.

 

There is literally no defense of Dorsey.  There isn’t a statistical defense of him, can’t use wins, can’t use any metric that shows the offense was better off in his hands.  
 

I honestly can’t fathom how you’re making this argument right now.  We were in 11th place and out of playoffs under Dorsey and now we are heading into final game playing for the 2 seed and divisional crown again.

 

It’s like you’re Dorsey in disguise or one of his relatives.  Because no one else could possibly think he should still be here over Brady.  It’s like not even close, debatable, or anything.  

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7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

No, for some reason our WRs don't try to draw them. Underthrowing deep passes that the WR simply runs back into the DB for an easy penalty has been a surprisingly productive play for a lot of offenses over the past few years. I don't know why we are the only team to never take advantage of this. Diggs had one pass today that would have been a DPI if he had made an effort to come back and catch the ball, instead he just stood there and let the ball bounce off the DB's back. That's why I'm worried he has lost his edge. He is not playing with any kind of fire right now, seemingly just going through the motions.

Yea I see diggs did similar thing in chargers. He looks like a pouty B word out there. I think he’s a sociopath. I wouldn’t put it past him that he is subtly sabotaging / trying to make coaches and Josh look bad

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4 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

I'm starting to think schemes are a major problem. When Brady was new it threw teams off a bit but now they are already catching up to it because the last 2 weeks were no different from anything that Dorsey has done

one play, three WRs ran a route, and were bunched together, zero spacing.  Come on Brady!  What the hell is that play design?  That is what drove me crazy about Dorsey.

 

I have been banging the table sending Dalton deep and medium routes.  Dalton and Cook are mismatches.  One of them is going to be one on one with S or LB most every play. Dial that up every game Brady.  Make teams have to gameplan besides Josh

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4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Drops have been a problem but simply put Josh Allen hasn’t been sharp. He’s missed almost every open WR down field. A lot of off target throws. A lot easy throws not attempted.

Agree. Joe Marino on his YouTube channel said he feels like he's watching the 2018 version of Allen. That message certainly resonates. 

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2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:


So you ignored the facts I see and went on with a weird crusade for a well deserved fired coordinator.  
 

I find it funny when you few Dorsey defenders refuse to acknowledge that his season totals were skewed by 2 and a half games of football (2nd half of week 2, week 3, and Miami week 4) while the other 7 1/2 games were atrocious showings by his offense.  
 

Brady has got the offense avg 8 points more per game and is 5-1 in those 6 games compared to the 2-4 Dorsey offense against weak defenses that avg 20 PPG.  
 

Going back to last season, Dorsey faced Jets 3 times and the offense avg 17 PPG and was 1-2 vs them.  Brady’s first game against Jets we put up 34 in 3 quarters and benched our starters for the 4th in the blow out.

 

There is literally no defense of Dorsey.  There isn’t a statistical defense of him, can’t use wins, can’t use any metric that shows the offense was better off in his hands.  
 

I honestly can’t fathom how you’re making this argument right now.  We were in 11th place and out of playoffs under Dorsey and now we are heading into final game playing for the 2 seed and divisional crown again.

 

It’s like you’re Dorsey in disguise or one of his relatives.  Because no one else could possibly think he should still be here over Brady.  It’s like not even close, debatable, or anything.  

Brady is a clear upgrade over Dorsey. However, the Bills passing offense isn't clicking. Its been problematic for multiple games. More specifically, Allen isn't playing or passing nearly as well as he's capable of. His vision seems off and maybe lacking some confidence, WR issues a plenty with stops not getting open, and or disappearing. That includes Diggs. The oline is leaking in pass protection. It's not just one issue that needs to improve or get corrected. It's a multitude of issues which likely isn't going to get fixed this year. 

 

Alpha trust your eyes and be honest here. The Bills passing game isn't anywhere near what is could or should be. It's taken a plunge from the offense of a few years ago. Don't get lost in statistics. 

 

I'm not saying the Bills offense sucks. Please don't take it that way. To it's credit, Allen and the offense has done enough when it counts in crunch time. What I'm saying is the offense should be better. It has to be better to match on into the playoffs. It's fair to be concerned about the offense. It's fair to think maybe Brady's tendencies are being figured out. 

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11 hours ago, Success said:

My biggest memories of Sherfield from this season will be of him kind of getting open over the middle for a 15-20 yard gain, but getting kind of interfered w/ and not being able to complete the play.

 

Mine will be his drops. I for one wish not to see him take the field again this year. Sherfield has been a poor addition.

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Clearly, there's something wrong with Stef, but they're not talking about it.  Eric Wood went on and on about how many plays Stef was out, and we had to put up with the sh** twins, Sherfield and Sharty.  Right now either Cook or Kincaid is our #1 receiver and that ain't changin' anytime soon.  Big Baller Beane has his work cut out for him at WR in the off-season, because we are a *****in' mess there.

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5 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Drops have been a problem but simply put Josh Allen hasn’t been sharp. He’s missed almost every open WR down field. A lot of off target throws. A lot easy throws not attempted.


Hollywood lights are blinding. 

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23 minutes ago, BananaB said:

I feel like a lot of these posts are the same as last year except Diggs ain’t playing a high level so the struggles are amplified. 

Diggs hasn’t been good either. A lot of drops.

Just now, Unforgiven said:

I rewatched the game, I thought the passing game was fine. In my opinion, the Patriots have a very good defense.

Fine? Not at all. 

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We haven't replaced Beasley, and Brown and Dabol which is a problem. Allen had his best years with those three and with Diggs to work as a true number one. Mahomes is also suffering because his receiving core got much worse. Jackson is having a career year because the Ravens finally gave him very good receivers and fired Roman as OC 

 

Beane and McDermott have spent a disproportionate amount of resources on the defense and have factually neglected the receiver position by not grabbing a stud. Passing up on Metcalf to grab Ford. Big mistake. Giving Von Miller all that money instead of a stud receiver like Davante Adams. Huge issue. Drafting bum defensive linemen like Boogie Basham and Rousseau who don't live up to their draft positions and passing on receivers. Problem. 

 

I was at the game and the Pats blanketed our receivers most plays. Also our offensive line really sucked in pass protection. The best QBs get shook when a line cannot consistently block. Brady got shook all the time when he was hit early and often. Allen has some bad habits forming again because he often cannot trust the line or his receives to get open and make contested catches when covered. 

 

Metcalf or Hill catch that pass Diggs did not have enough speed to get to because he's lost a step. 

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12 minutes ago, ProcessImproverMan said:

We haven't replaced Beasley, and Brown and Dabol which is a problem. Allen had his best years with those three and with Diggs to work as a true number one. Mahomes is also suffering because his receiving core got much worse. Jackson is having a career year because the Ravens finally gave him very good receivers and fired Roman as OC 

 

Beane and McDermott have spent a disproportionate amount of resources on the defense and have factually neglected the receiver position by not grabbing a stud. Passing up on Metcalf to grab Ford. Big mistake. Giving Von Miller all that money instead of a stud receiver like Davante Adams. Huge issue. Drafting bum defensive linemen like Boogie Basham and Rousseau who don't live up to their draft positions and passing on receivers. Problem. 

 

I was at the game and the Pats blanketed our receivers most plays. Also our offensive line really sucked in pass protection. The best QBs get shook when a line cannot consistently block. Brady got shook all the time when he was hit early and often. Allen has some bad habits forming again because he often cannot trust the line or his receives to get open and make contested catches when covered. 

 

Metcalf or Hill catch that pass Diggs did not have enough speed to get to because he's lost a step. 

Agree with most of this, though I think Rousseau is okay for late first round investment. They need multiple early picks at wr, and they need to hit on them.

Lot of us were calling for Metcalf when he was on the board. If OBD doesn't get the message at this point, it's beyond dim. For now, the only answer is scheme guys open and win ugly. (And they should feature Kincaid, Shakir, Cook, and Playoff Lenny. No confidence in the wr room.)

Edited by Dr. Who
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15 minutes ago, Unforgiven said:

I rewatched the game, I thought the passing game was fine. In my opinion, the Patriots have a very good defense.

 

Haven't re-watched but on first look thought it was dreadful in the first half and ok in the second. Nowhere near where it should be considering Josh's undoubted physical attributes, though.

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I heard that in his press conference Josh even said that the ball didn't feel right in his hand for the Patriots game.  He didn't even seem to know why but he knew the ball wasn't coming out right and that he was off.  Even completed passes were often a bit off target like the pass that was behind Shakir.

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12 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Because Diggs just isn't very good right now. I see a lot of Bills fans are afraid to say it out loud. Everyone sees his production has gone down and is grasping for answers. The simplest answer is the correct one. I'm not sure there are 20 WRs he is out playing right now. It's a massive concern heading into the playoffs.

It’s not just Diggs. It starts with the QB and a lot of Bills fans are afraid to say Josh is off too. Surprise, surprise. 
Josh has been off lately. I think it started when he turned the ball over FOUR TIMES when he lost the Jets game. But hey, let’s keep excusing him for his play. 

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