Alphadawg7

Wait...we don't have some budding star at backup QB behind our elite QB? Fire Beane.

And to be clear, I have no issue with your specific stance even though our opinions on the upside of Keon and Shakir differ where I see a higher ceiling than you do. It is totally fair to be on either side of that fence right given it is as you say "unproven". Where my point comes from is the degree a lot of other people push that "unproven" aspect to a level that also implies "improbable" with the posters who wade much deeper than you in negative side of the swimming pool. But here is the one thing I do definitely disagree with what you are saying, at least in your language being used in the bolded above. On one hand you talk about how they are "unproven", which is true and means both they have not proven one way or the other what their capabilities are yet given youth and circumstance between Keon (rookie), Shakir (ascending after a breakout), and Samuel (in his prime, never had a credible QB yet though). But in this bolded, you also state they are one of the worst groups in the league "on paper" and "entering the season"...which I won't even argue given it is fair for you to say with so many changes and things yet to be seen. However, the issue I have is that you follow that by then stating it is all on "Josh and Brady to make due with they have" which sounds a lot like saying them needing to make Chicken Salad out of Chicken S**t. And that kind of language closes the door on this "unproven" group actually proving your "one of the worst groups on paper" grading inaccurate or wrong. I am not saying that you even believe that or not...I am saying your use of language there doesn't imply there is room for them to outperform your "on paper" opinion wrong and that the success will be solely on Allen and Brady to overcome this group.

Lol, my track record on receivers is pretty stellar around here, so I am more than confident in the things I said even though you are absolutely blurring what I actually said in this sarcastic comment to be different than what I really stated in all of the above.

Let me first clarify that this comment I am about to make isn't solely at you, just replying to you since yours is a recent comment. But this is more a general response to what is said a lot around here by numerous people who are less optimistic, skeptical or flat out have a very negative view on this group ahead of the season. There are two things that have been beaten to death and are being made more of than they really are, and in some cases being over exaggerated. First: Way too much is being made of this "unproven" aspect as if it implies "improbable". Is it true to say its "unproven" like in the context you just used...yes. Did you over exaggerate it...NO, but you do say it a lot. But others shout this from the mountain top as if "unproven" also equates to "improbable" and they know who they are. And that is where IMHO it is being way over stated and over exaggerated. If our top of the chart weapons were made up of guys like MVS and Hollins...sure, I would say the "unproven" aspect of them being one of the primary or even the top primary target is a significant concern because they are more established in who they are. But we are talking about a TE that as a rookie was 4th and 10th in NFL history for rookie TE's in catches and yards. A WR in Shakir who just led the team in receiving the final 10 games over Diggs with just 38 targets to Diggs 80 targets over that span while also leading all WRs in the NFL in Catch % and one of the best YPT last year. And a rookie in Keon, where I get people are split, including you who doubts his ability to be a WR1 in the NFL, who despite all that has legitimate WR1 upside and everything coming out on him right now has been over whelmingly great. From on field performance, to work ethic, football IQ, commitment, and running 100% exclusively with the 1's. And Samuel has never had a legit starting QB in his career either and entering his prime now. Optimism that one of them, or more than one of them, can continue to ascend and form a strong top of the chart group is a very legitimate possibility and not at all as improbable or daunting through constant repeating as some make it sound. Second thing is: Too much is being made about their not being a "Diggs" on the other side of the field. Yes, there are advantages and benefits to there being a guy who consistently gets extra attention, but to the degree its being discussed is way over the top in this thread. If you read some of the posts here you would think its impossible for any offense or receivers to have success or play well without a top 5 WR on the field to draw attention. Not to mention, we already have an Elite player that garners extra attention still in Allen who absolutely teams need to spy. And furthermore, to assume no teams are going to have to cheat attention during games towards any of our weapons is just naive, there will be guys on this team still getting doubled or defenses selling out to stop on a certain play and to think it won't happen without Diggs is just not realistic.

I would take Keon long term over Mooney 100% of the time. And honestly by the time week 1 gets here and Keon has a full camp and preseason complete, I’m probably taking Keon week 1 too over Mooney unless Keon ends up struggling during camp and preseason, which so far it’s nothing but stellar reports coming out. But that is also because I am optimistic on Keon and also know Mooney is not a WR1, at least not a good one. Keon I firmly believe will be a WR1 and will be ready to start his ascension come week 1.

No, I don’t think so at all…he isn’t going to be over Keon who has taken all snaps with the 1’s and I seriously doubt he is going to be ahead of Samuel coming into camp who Brady wanted and has experience with. If they valued him over Samuel they would have signed him.

That is just your opinion, and one I definitely do not share. If I am an NFL GM and I have to choose between Mooney and Kincaid, I’m taking Kincaid. Shakir and Mooney…I am taking Shakir. Keon and Mooney…I am taking the upside of Keon. I get you don’t believe in those 3 players to the same degree, but I would bet money that Beane wouldnt swap any of those 3 for Mooney. And I’m not even saying Mooney is a bad player, just saying to say he would be our “best” and “our instant WR1” over all 3 of those guys is over the top and quite exaggerative given Keon hasn’t even started a game, Kincaid is just entering his 2nd year, and Shakir is coming off a year 2 breakout as he gets ready to start his 3rd as a major part of the offense.

It’s pointless to argue talent between two players based on yardage totals when targets are drastically different. Both Mooney and Samuel had been saddled most of their career with poor QB situations. Debating whose was worse is a pointless exercise like arguing over whose dogs poop smells worse. Samuel IMO was the better signing for our team both in fit, history (Brady connection), and contract (based on our cap issues this year). Arguing which player is the “better” player before seeing either play with a credible QB is going to accomplish nothing until we see them play with real QBs.

This is why I was telling people yesterday not to sleep on Hollins when some saw that MVS got some run with the 1’s. Both Allen and the coaches love Hollins and he is not only a credible receiver, but he does all the dirty work too like blocking and going all out every play. It’s also why I said Hollins is directly in Claypools way, so if Claypool wants to climb the depth chart he first has to find a way to get ahead of Hollins…which won’t be easy.

You want to see them both have their moments. It’s good to see the D adjust and make some plays and the offense do the same. If one side dominates all camp it generally means the other side may have some issues

It’s amazing to me that the hard core naysayers don’t even understand the kind of potential Brady has with variations and creative designs with this unique and diverse group of size and skill sets.

Agree with all this...although I wouldn't go so far as say "highly" unlikely he starts Day 1. I agree the odds favor him starting the season as a backup or in specific packages, but I don't think the guys ahead of him are good enough to where he has little chance to over take them come week 1.

But I heard here he can't catch, has short arms, and is just a role player 😂

I think people are jumping to conclusions and assumptions too much off McD's comment. I think it was just a general comment pertaining to rookies more than anything. Nothing he said struck me as if he was saying that Bishop has been out of shape at any point. Could just be that Bishop maybe wasn't around the facility as much and maybe training else where and more that McD didn't know where he was at yet until he gets out there. Nothing about Bishop at any point strikes me as someone who is out of shape or would come in out of shape, so just IMO feel this comment is being made to likely be more than it is. But who knows, just the way it came across to me is all

Probably because he rents instead of owns