Bills trading Daryll Johnson to the Panthers for 6th rd pick

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

Yes, but Shaq will play 40% of your defensive snaps at a premium position.  He is overpaid compared to the contract, but he earned that contract by at least putting up 1 good year.  
 

Johnson as a late 7th round pick has nearly given nothing on the defensive side, but did some nice things on special teams. 

 

On the "Bills think he gave something" side: Johnson had 44%, 40%, and 40% of the snaps in the last 3 games of last season.  So the Bills clearly felt he had something to give on the defensive side.

 

On the opposite side, his snaps got cut to 20%, inactive, and 26% during the playoffs.  So when it was "win or go home" there was someone else they preferred to have out there AND the conclusion was "DL was not good enough"

 

You can't improve something by keeping it the same, which is sometimes what it looks as though the Bills want to do

[BornAgainBillsFan]

2 hours ago, golfball323 said:

How is this a discussion?

 

People here have a preference over the coach and gm who just took us to a conference championship? The guys who get to see him work every day, his daily one on ones, work ethic, culture fit with the team, etc... Sorry they didn't include you in the discussion.

 

Flipping a 7th rounder ST specialist for a 6th is a steal. Go get the next guy in 2022. 

 

Bam may have started his Bills career as a 7th rounder, but he ended it as a major contributor to all 4 phases of special teams.

 

I wish he could've been kept on the roster. But if he couldn't, it feels like he was worth more than a 6th rounder at this point. That's kinda where I'm at. It's just a feeling that we didn't get enough.

[Coach Tuesday]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

On the "Bills think he gave something" side: Johnson had 44%, 40%, and 40% of the snaps in the last 3 games of last season.  So the Bills clearly felt he had something to give on the defensive side.

 

On the opposite side, his snaps got cut to 20%, inactive, and 26% during the playoffs.  So when it was "win or go home" there was someone else they preferred to have out there AND the conclusion was "DL was not good enough"

 

You can't improve something by keeping it the same, which is sometimes what it looks as though the Bills want to do

 

Part of that might have been the opponents.  Johnson is notoriously bad at keeping the edge, something he was still doing this preseason from what I saw - he gets sucked inside very easily and gives up contain.  Like almost every time.  You can't do that against teams like Baltimore and KC who know how to exploit it.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Coach Tuesday

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Some special teams players ARE interchangeable, it’s true. 
 

The really good ones, though, add value to your kick and punt units — both coverage and return. It’s why guys like Taiwan Jones, Tyler Matakevich, and Matthew Slater have 10 year careers in the NFL.

If the really good special teams players of the league were so easily replaceable, you’d think they wouldn’t have such career longevity, since they often don’t contribute much on offense or defense.

 

Im not saying Bam was in that “really good” tier, necessarily, though recent comments by Beane and Farwell indicate that he may be. I’m just saying that in a game that often features small margins of victory, field position and special teams play matter, and Bam helped in those areas.

 

 

 

 

I agree that there are a small handful, and guys like Slater and Tasker also operate like coaches out there on the field, which ensures their longevity and gives them a bit of extra value. But Daryl Johnson ... is not that guy.  He's fine at ST, but he's essentially interchangeable. 

[Just Joshin']

1 hour ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

 

My bet: Bobby Hart to the Bears for a 7th

The Bills can just cut Hart, don't need to give Chicago a draft pick to get rid of him.

20 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

On the "Bills think he gave something" side: Johnson had 44%, 40%, and 40% of the snaps in the last 3 games of last season.  So the Bills clearly felt he had something to give on the defensive side.

 

On the opposite side, his snaps got cut to 20%, inactive, and 26% during the playoffs.  So when it was "win or go home" there was someone else they preferred to have out there AND the conclusion was "DL was not good enough"

 

You can't improve something by keeping it the same, which is sometimes what it looks as though the Bills want to do

Another way to look at it.....they had so much regard for his DE play they drafted 2 and signed 1 player at his position.

 

Personally I thought he was going to be kept for the future but the Bills obviously did not want to keep 7 DEs.

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is fewer snaps, I get that, but special teams errors can be momentum swings they can be easy scores, they are stolen possessions. Just looking at the numbers and saying "ah well it isn't a third of the game numerically" misses the point for me. Nobody is arguing it is as important as offense or defense but it isn't an after thought and if you treat it like that you will suffer. And it isn't just me that thinks this.... a lot of the best coaches in the NFL do too. I don't have the Bills 2018 special team yards given up to hand but it was a lot and it hurt the team. Equally I know Roberts had the best overall return numbers across two disciplines in the league last year. That helped the team.

I get all that, but big errors on offense and defense are major momentum swings too. I don't think STs have any claim to pre-eminence when it comes to momentum-shifting plays. Indeed, on the vast majority of ST plays, nothing significant happens. As a number of others have pointed out, the Bills are not lacking in decent-to-good special teams players, but most ST players even on the best units are truly interchangeable. 

 

Since 2015 -- the beginning of the Rex era -- the Bills have one legit kick return for a TD (McKenzie last season). That's one in six years. (I'm not giving Hyde credit for his 2019 onside kick return vs. Miami in garbage time because it was really dumb and a freak play to boot. If he had taken a knee, the game would have ended. Instead, the Bills D had to go back on the field in garbage time and play another half dozen plays vs. a gunslinging Fitz at the risk of a needless injury.)  

Edited August 30, 2021 by dave mcbride

[freddyjj]

So my two cents here. 

1. Andre Smith takes Bam's ST snaps
2. Efe Obada has more NFL game experience at DE than Bam
3. Obada has also played inside on DL and is stronger than Bam.  Big advantage 
4. Obada auditioning for next year.  
5. Hughes and Addison likely gone in 2022.  So Groot, AJ and Boogie are givens going forward. 

[Dr. K]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is fewer snaps, I get that, but special teams errors can be momentum swings they can be easy scores, they are stolen possessions. Just looking at the numbers and saying "ah well it isn't a third of the game numerically" misses the point for me. Nobody is arguing it is as important as offense or defense but it isn't an after thought and if you treat it like that you will suffer. And it isn't just me that thinks this.... a lot of the best coaches in the NFL do too. I don't have the Bills 2018 special team yards given up to hand but it was a lot and it hurt the team. Equally I know Roberts had the best overall return numbers across two disciplines in the league last year. That helped the team.

The 2010 Chargers led the league in offense and defense and yet missed the playoffs because their special teams were so abominable. They allowed three kickoff returns for touchdowns, one punt return touchdown, and four blocked punts and finished 9-7.. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Dr. K

[First Round Bust]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Interesting theory from Joe:

 

two rookies - two second year sophomores in the league -five nfl vets who have been with us 1-2 year max - and Taiwan and Siran  are your most experienced Bills ST going on third years more or less...

 

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

[Putin]

1 hour ago, Draconator said:

 

I enjoy a personal pizza as anyone else but please no more trades with the panthers 

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I disagree that he wasn't the guy they wanted to move. If they were getting maybe a 3rd or a 4th or something, then yeah, make the trade even if it makes your lineup a bit weaker. For a 6th, though? I don't think so. It's not a big enough return to get you to get rid of a guy you'd like to keep, IMO.

 

If you are not keeping 7 DEs and you are getting rid of either Johnson or Obada and you can get a pick back for Johnson rather than cutting him - isn’t that the smart move.

 

We would have to see, but one of the 3 was getting cut and I don’t think they were getting a bunch of offers for the other 2 - so that drives the decision you have to make.  
 

Now - unfortunately we will never know where they would have gone if no offer materialized because at least one deal did come about for Johnson - so all we know is the Bills we’re willing to part with him for a price.

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, BornAgainBillsFan said:

 

Bam may have started his Bills career as a 7th rounder, but he ended it as a major contributor to all 4 phases of special teams.

 

I wish he could've been kept on the roster. But if he couldn't, it feels like he was worth more than a 6th rounder at this point. That's kinda where I'm at. It's just a feeling that we didn't get enough.

That’s a testament to the Bills coaching staff because he didn’t even play ST in college. Anyway, teams don’t give up 5th rounders for ST guys. The Bills got the same return for him as the Texans got for Shaq Lawson.  

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Again, keep Johnson and don't hand Taiwan Jones a roster spot. 

You keep saying this nonsense, implying Taiwan doesn’t do anything to earn his roster spot year after year. It doesn’t sound any smarter the second time you say it.

[rayray808]

The 6 will end up going to Philly for Zack Ertz

[unbillievable]

7 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

You keep saying this nonsense, implying Taiwan doesn’t do anything to earn his roster spot year after year. It doesn’t sound any smarter the second time you say it.

 

[billsfan89]

Bills clear the logjam at DE a little bit and pocket a late round pick for their troubles. Still would not be shocked to see Addison traded if the right move is there but I think this move means they are carrying 6 DE’s and 4 DT’s.

[Coach Tuesday]

28 minutes ago, rayray808 said:

The 6 will end up going to Philly for Zack Ertz

Let me guess, your “cousin” again as the source?  

[ColoradoBills]

Wow I seen this thread before I left this morning and now it's 11 pages.

Anyone think that maybe the STs will have more LBs on them this year (like they are suppose to be) instead of a DE?

 

If Taiwan Jones is cut tomorrow this board might melt down.

[billybrew1]

I think if we want to imagine who will be our WRs in the near future with Beasley and Sanders gone, I'd look to Stevenson and Hodgins well before Kumerow. Kumerow's time is now. When our WRs get beat up (and they will) Kumerow will start to be targeted. The great thing about Jake is he can remain active as a ST demon. He is also great for setting up blocks on runs, screens, and downfield blocking assignments..... Daboll knows best.

[Coastie]

6 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

This is not that surprising even with him on the team we Drafted defensive ends one and two this year

Man, I had not thought about it that way but hard to argue with that conclusion.

[HardyBoy]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Those same people will be happy we got that additional pick come draft time next year

I personally would have liked to see Addison traded....maybe it just wasnt possible

Johnson isn’t going to get in Rousseau’s ear right before the biggest play of the season and tell him what counter to use that he was helping GR set up all game.

 

Addison’s experience and what sounds like his ability and definitely his willingness to convey that experience to others is a huge asset and adds to his value.

 

They just invested a huge amount of assets in young DEs. Five years from now when they are all hopefully playing on their second contracts, I would have to imagine they will all credit the mentorship that Addison offered this season as key reasons they learned to do it the right way, and they will subsequently pass that along to the next batch of DE prospects one day.
 

These guys have never had to go through the game planning other teams will be doing to exploit their weaknesses, they need a calm guiding voice in the locker room that have had success and also have gone through the ups and downs of a season. Hughs and Addison have and they both play differently and can offer different advice to each player. 

[TheBeaneBandit]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

Wow I seen this thread before I left this morning and now it's 11 pages.

Anyone think that maybe the STs will have more LBs on them this year (like they are suppose to be) instead of a DE?

 

If Taiwan Jones is cut tomorrow this board might melt down.

I'm so done with this team???

[BillsFanSD]

I think Johnson is maybe worth a little more than a sixth round pick.  Like a fifth.  

 

This is fine though.  We were going to have to cut an NFL-caliber DE.  Getting something for one of them is a positive.  Good on Beane for adding a lottery pick for next year's roster.

[JPP]

8 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

Wow!

 

So he'll be a Bill next year, right?

yup ping pong with the Panthers....they usually enter our door but wow now we send DJ back home.....

[Ethan in Cleveland]

7 hours ago, Real McNasty said:

So if by 4pm tomorrow we cut Johnson and got nothing for him what would be the take here? Probably zilch.... Or, we will sign him to the PS...

 

We get return on a player we were most likely going to cut and people are angry? "Help me understand" - VGG

I think people are angry that he was not on the final 53 not what value Beane got in the trade.  Not me.  He never showed any promise on defense and Addison and Obada both outplayed him last year.  I'm glad Beane got a pick because Johnson was not going to make the 53.  

This board needs to stop thinking like it is 2010-2019.  Special teams mean nothing.  That is what loser teams with no talent care about.  Johnson had 8 special teams tackles last year.  Who the hell cares. Someone else will make those 8 tackles this year. 

Now jettison Jones and keep Kumerow and an extra LB.  

Edited August 31, 2021 by Ethan in Portland

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is fewer snaps, I get that, but special teams errors can be momentum swings they can be easy scores, they are stolen possessions. Just looking at the numbers and saying "ah well it isn't a third of the game numerically" misses the point for me. Nobody is arguing it is as important as offense or defense but it isn't an after thought and if you treat it like that you will suffer. And it isn't just me that thinks this.... a lot of the best coaches in the NFL do too. I don't have the Bills 2018 special team yards given up to hand but it was a lot and it hurt the team. Equally I know Roberts had the best overall return numbers across two disciplines in the league last year. That helped the team.

 

 

But it's harder to finish near the top of the league in team defense (yards allowed) like the 2018 Bills if your special teams aren't so woeful that they allow opposing offenses the best starting field position in the NFL.     @GoBills808 would say that special teams make your defense worse!

 

 

[LEBills]

This is great for the Bills and Bam.

 

Bam was never going to get a real chance to shine on a bills Roster that now has 3 young, high draft picks and two veterans. Across from Burns, Bam might be able to get more playing time than he would have with us. 
 

For the Bills, we got a 6th rounder for a former 7th rounder who was going to be a free agent after this year. As the Bills cap figure starts to creep up with Allen’s new contract, these are the type of roster churning moves that have to be made to keep us competitive. Move off a player a year before he gets more expensive than he is worth or before he can leave for nothing.

 

Good job Beane and good luck Bam, you played well in your limited role here.

[BurpleBull]

Mario Addison is so undervalued around here---because of his age--- and he's actually important to defense's pass rush. 

[Saint Doug]

1 hour ago, JPP said:

yup ping pong with the Panthers....they usually enter our door but wow now we send DJ back home.....

Don’t worry. Now that he’s a Panther, the chance of him coming back has exponentially increased. 

[eball]

Happy they kept Obada over Bam.  Somewhat surprised, but happy.

[Putin]

4 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

Bills clear the logjam at DE a little bit and pocket a late round pick for their troubles. Still would not be shocked to see Addison traded if the right move is there but I think this move means they are carrying 6 DE’s and 4 DT’s.

Again the trade Addison talk  
What happens if Jerry gets hurt who else do we have at the position with any experience ? 

[DCofNC]

Disappointing, but I hope he gets a shot there and makes the most of it.

[QCity]

33 minutes ago, Putin said:

the trade Addison talk  

 

Nobody is trading for a 34 yr old DE with an $8M cap hit. This is Addison's last year here and although he'll be listed as a starter, he will likely play ~55% of the snaps like he did last season. Not unfathomable to think this could be Hughes' last year as well. The young bucks need to step up.

Edited August 31, 2021 by QCity

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, LEBills said:

This is great for the Bills and Bam.

 

Bam was never going to get a real chance to shine on a bills Roster that now has 3 young, high draft picks and two veterans. Across from Burns, Bam might be able to get more playing time than he would have with us. 
 

For the Bills, we got a 6th rounder for a former 7th rounder who was going to be a free agent after this year. As the Bills cap figure starts to creep up with Allen’s new contract, these are the type of roster churning moves that have to be made to keep us competitive. Move off a player a year before he gets more expensive than he is worth or before he can leave for nothing.

 

Good job Beane and good luck Bam, you played well in your limited role here.

 

Agree on "Good job BBB and good luck Bam!

 

I think Bam was under contract through 2022 though

16 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

Nobody is trading for a 34 yr old DE with an $8M cap hit. This is Addison's last year here and although he'll be listed as a starter, he will likely play ~55% of the snaps like he did last season. Not unfathomable to think this could be Hughes' last year as well. The young bucks need to step up.

 

Again just a note that the trade partner would get his $4M salary, not his whole $8M cap hit.

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, BurpleBull said:

Mario Addison is so undervalued around here---because of his age--- and he's actually important to defense's pass rush. 

 

Personally I think he is overvalued inside the building but there you go. They are keeping him. Just not sure they should. 

[Real McClappy]

8 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

I think people are angry that he was not on the final 53 not what value Beane got in the trade.  Not me.  He never showed any promise on defense and Addison and Obada both outplayed him last year.  I'm glad Beane got a pick because Johnson was not going to make the 53.  

This board needs to stop thinking like it is 2010-2019.  Special teams mean nothing.  That is what loser teams with no talent care about.  Johnson had 8 special teams tackles last year.  Who the hell cares. Someone else will make those 8 tackles this year. 

Now jettison Jones and keep Kumerow and an extra LB.  

Been watching our squad since 83 and honestly cannot remember a Bills team having as much depth to date. It truly speaks volumes about our FO the last few years.  Anytime you can take a 7th rd player and get contribution and better capital back you are doing something right.  

 

Curious to see the final 53 later. GO BILLS!

[Locomark]

It shows how good Beane is at praising to raise value. He and Farwell mentioned BAM multiple times for his need to be “gameplanned” against. Now I think it was all a set-up to get someone to take the bait. It’s not like the kid was Tasker part 2 or anything. 

[BobbyC81]

18 hours ago, Real McNasty said:

Not a surprise to I at all as you mentioned above.

 

Much better to get something for him over nothing to me at this phase. Beane is a solid A$$ GM and I 100% trust him. 

 

I wish Beane could help the Sabres make an Eichel deal

[JMF2006]

Good Luck and all the best in Carolina Bam  

18 minutes ago, BobbyC81 said:

 

I wish Beane could help the Sabres make an Eichel deal

 

I think Jacks old agent was part of the problem maybe things can get smoothed over now.

[freddyjj]

Wonder if Beane figures he'll be getting a comp pick for Trubisky in his decision to keep Addison.  He gets a 6th for the last guy on DE depth chart (Bam Johnson) and may see a mid round pick for Mitch.  Doubt he would have done better than a 5th/6th for Addison giving age and salary.  Easier to keep Addison and pay him for final year knowing he could hep on pass rush part time and coach up the kids. 

 

Really look forward to a turbo or NASCAR rush package using Obada and Groot inside and Jerry and Mario outside.  Trade the train horn for revving engines sound on 3rd down pass rush plays.