Bills trading Daryll Johnson to the Panthers for 6th rd pick

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

8 minutes ago, vtnatefootball11 said:

I'm not going to quote them all but there are 7-8 separate posts about not liking the trade or hoping for little more since the first page.  Go read the thread. 

 

Also, look further down, people are still saying it...  

 

7th round pick - 2 years, 2 sacks in over 400 defensive snaps - and a solid special teams contributor.  I don't know that you could expect much more than a 6th.  2 more years on the cheap, but he needs to make plays on defense to get any real payday.  

 

Buffalo spent 2 2nd's and a 1st on DE's so he had long odds to ever make much of an impact here during the remaining 2 years on the deal.

Edited August 30, 2021 by dneveu

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

49 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Teller was a better prospect........some considered him as a guy who should have gone in the early rounds of the draft.........but it appears that they traded the young, high ceiling player to retain a vet who is on his last legs.........which is what Spencer Long was as well when they dealt Teller.

 

I will be surprised if not cutting bait on Addison last winter ends up looking like a good move in the long run.

 

Maybe he bounces back this year though.   I liked the signing initially because he was a consistent producer and the contract was easy to get out of.   @GunnerBill did not like the signing and he looked correct on that one last season.  

 

One of the few, lasting bad memories of last season was watching old Mario flail around chasing Kyler Murray allowing him to get off the Hail Murray throw.

 

They got smaller and less athletic at the position today.

I know the risk is always there that you let go of a young guy for a so so vet, but I have to agree with it. 

 

I see the future in Espenesa, Groot and Basham but they really do need more time to season. Hughes and Addison have one final year for the transition. I would rather have the veterans for the final year before we turn it over

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by WhitewalkerInPhilly

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

11 minutes ago, pigpen65 said:

Don't like it. Why get rid of a good young depth player who appears to keep improving year to year to keep Addison? Addison is old as ***** and adds nothing.

 

Because Addison is better than johnson today.  His value is also lower with a cap squeeze in place around the league.

[clayboy54]

23 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Yes plenty are. As good as Beane has been rebuilding this offense he's been terrible on defense for the most part with FA's and draft picks, which is also why I'm still tempering my expectations with Epineza and Rousseau despite their strong camp/preseason showings.

 

But getting back to Addison (and Butler), it was one thing to restructure their deals but they should have been done so to cut/trade them without the cap hits associated with them.

 

If Obada ends up being semi decent and at worse getting the 5 sacks he did in Carolina it somewhat offsets the Addison deal though.

You are most certainly welcome to your opinion, but your blanket statement is ridiculous. I think you and quite a few others on here just don't like our defensive philosophy. Many want a huge nose tackle like Ted Washington and run-stuffing MLB. Fine. If that's what you expect then Beane has failed miserably. But, that is not reality for the Bills defense.

 

The Bills run a defense that thrives on sideline to sideline mobility. This, as others have said, makes a solid pass-stopping defense. So, if you're expecting FA acquisions and draft picks that fit a run-stuffing style, then you're welcome to be critical but you won't be happy.

 

As I see it, we have a really promising group of defensive talent crafted to stop the pass in this pass-happy NFL.

[HOUSE]

We now have an extra 6th rounder for Zack Ertz

 

 

 

 

[Real McClappy]

So if by 4pm tomorrow we cut Johnson and got nothing for him what would be the take here? Probably zilch.... Or, we will sign him to the PS...

 

We get return on a player we were most likely going to cut and people are angry? "Help me understand" - VGG

Edited August 30, 2021 by Real McNasty

[dave mcbride]

33 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Teller was a better prospect........some considered him as a guy who should have gone in the early rounds of the draft.........but it appears that they traded the young, high ceiling player to retain a vet who is on his last legs.........which is what Spencer Long was as well when they dealt Teller.

 

I will be surprised if not cutting bait on Addison last winter ends up looking like a good move in the long run.

 

Maybe he bounces back this year though.   I liked the signing initially because he was a consistent producer and the contract was easy to get out of.   @GunnerBill did not like the signing and he looked correct on that one last season.  

 

One of the few, lasting bad memories of last season was watching old Mario flail around chasing Kyler Murray allowing him to get off the Hail Murray throw.

 

They got smaller and less athletic at the position today.

Re Addison, it is the case that a lot of DEs play well late into their careers (the opposite of RBs, for instance). In the previous four seasons, he averaged 10 sacks per season, so we'll see if last year was related to no crowd noise (which massively favored offense) and hence a one-off. He played fewer snaps as a percentage last season (57 percent) as opposed to the previous 3 seasons in Carolina (65, 66, and 67 percent). Interesting fact: Addison played 14 percent of ST snaps last season after playing very few in Carolina the previous few years. However, earlier in his career he played 71 percent of ST snaps one season, so he definitely can play it. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AddiMa00.htm

 

Frankly, I'd rather have Addison than Johnson this season because I believe he's still a better pass rusher than Johnson right now, and the only way the Bills are getting past KC is via the pass rush. They made no improvements to a secondary that was absolutely shredded by Mahomes last year. If you're not going to upgrade your cover guys (which is still a pretty good unit for a zone scheme--don't get me wrong--but one that can't handle the array of playmakers KC throws at you), then you gotta go full Chargers and bring the heat against Mahomes like nobody's business. Mahomes has had real issues with the Chargers' pass rush (e.g., taking 8 QB hits in their 23-20 OT victory last season). 

 

Basically, the Bills' D needs a game like this one -- https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201910060kan.htm -- where the opposing D is sacking Mahomes 4 times and hitting him 8 other times. Basically, relentless pressure by guys who can occasionally win their battles vs. what will probably be a good o-line. And they need to do it THIS season; windows are never as long as you think.

 

I'll take a crafty-if-old Addison vs. a green player when going up agains KC's vet tackles, thank you very much.  

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by dave mcbride

[John from Riverside]

34 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

No…. He’s a “wizard”. 

That is the GM of the year there....he deserves some latitude

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, Real McNasty said:

So if by 4pm tomorrow we cut Johnson and got nothing for him what would be the take here be? Probably zilch....

 

We get return on a player we were most likely going to cut and people are angry? "Help me understand" - VGG

 

I've watched him play, he has legit never blown me away in any way.  6th round pick for a guy i had not making the team?  Sign me up.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

Because Addison is better than johnson today.  His value is also lower with a cap squeeze in place around the league.

 

He is still ahead of Bam as an end, yep. But if pre-season is to be any type of guide neither are starters and Bam is an infinitely better special teamer. 

 

I think they backed themselves into a corner on Addison with the restructure. They did it to allow themselves to re-sign Mongo, Milano and Williams. I though they should have restructured Diggs then (which they did later) and kept Addison cuttable until after the draft because I suspect once they knew they landed Groot and Boogie their perspective on Addison may have changed. 

 

It isn't a super major error that I am losing sleep over (we are arguing between their 4th best end and their 6th best end) but I do think they got this one a bit wrong. Just my opinion.

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, Real McNasty said:

So if by 4pm tomorrow we cut Johnson and got nothing for him what would be the take here? Probably zilch.... Or, we will sign him to the PS...

 

We get return on a player we were most likely going to cut and people are angry? "Help me understand" - VGG

Those same people will be happy we got that additional pick come draft time next year

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is still ahead of Bam as an end, yep. But if pre-season is to be any type of guide neither are starters and Bam is an infinitely better special teamer. 

 

I think they backed themselves into a corner on Addison with the restructure. They did it to allow themselves to re-sign Mongo, Milano and Williams. I though they should have restructured Diggs then (which they did later) and kept Addison cuttable until after the draft because I suspect once they knew they landed Groot and Boogie their perspective on Addison may have changed. 

 

It isn't a super major error that I am losing sleep over (we are arguing between their 4th best end and their 6th best end) but I do think they got this one a bit wrong. Just my opinion.

I personally would have liked to see Addison traded....maybe it just wasnt possible

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

I've watched him play, he has legit never blown me away in any way.  6th round pick for a guy i had not making the team?  Sign me up.

 

I had Bam on the roster. I didn't 3 weeks ago (that's fair) but I have liked his pre-season. Again I am not saying the sky is falling but I still don't love the move.

[Doc]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

He is still ahead of Bam as an end, yep. But if pre-season is to be any type of guide neither are starters and Bam is an infinitely better special teamer. 

 

I think they backed themselves into a corner on Addison with the restructure. They did it to allow themselves to re-sign Mongo, Milano and Williams. I though they should have restructured Diggs then (which they did later) and kept Addison cuttable until after the draft because I suspect once they knew they landed Groot and Boogie their perspective on Addison may have changed. 

 

It isn't a super major error that I am losing sleep over (we are arguing between their 4th best end and their 6th best end) but I do think they got this one a bit wrong. Just my opinion.

 

If they were to cut Addison, they'd save $2.1M.  I don't think they kept him because they were backed into a corner.

[JerseyBills]

He has potential but with Hughes, Addison, Groot, Boogie, Epenesa and Efe we are still stacked and got something for a guy we would have cut

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is still ahead of Bam as an end, yep. But if pre-season is to be any type of guide neither are starters and Bam is an infinitely better special teamer. 

 

I think they backed themselves into a corner on Addison with the restructure. They did it to allow themselves to re-sign Mongo, Milano and Williams. I though they should have restructured Diggs then (which they did later) and kept Addison cuttable until after the draft because I suspect once they knew they landed Groot and Boogie their perspective on Addison may have changed. 

 

It isn't a super major error that I am losing sleep over (we are arguing between their 4th best end and their 6th best end) but I do think they got this one a bit wrong. Just my opinion.

 

Who would you rather have rotating in on 30-40% of snaps?  Who would you rather have if someone took a bad injury at the position?  That to me is always addison when comparing to johnson.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

If they were to cut Addison, they'd save $2.1M.  I don't think they kept him because they were backed into a corner.

 

I didn't necessarily just mean money. Loyalty matters to these guys and I suspect they had a frank conversation with Mario - a guy they both know and rightly have a ton of respect for - and said we want you to take a pay cut (which is what it was not just a restructure) to keep you on the team and there was an understanding from both sides that was the deal. I am not saying that is the only factor in the decision but I do think it played in.

[TheBeaneBandit]

I have never seen Johnson flash anything on defense in a regular season game. I'm 100% cool with this trade.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, dneveu said:

 

Who would you rather have rotating in on 30-40% of snaps?  Who would you rather have if someone took a bad injury at the position?  That to me is always addison when comparing to johnson.

 

Yea that is Addison. But I don't think it matters that much if it is Addison or Obada or Basham or even Johnson. We are talking about the 4th best end on the team and I'd have kept Bam's special teams prowess at a cheap value. I value special teams much higher than most football fans. Equally I'd have traded Obada before trading Bam too.

[Kelly the Dog]

The Bills management also loves it some veteran leadership. Yes you have it with Jerry Hughes but he’s a different breed of cat. Star is no role model. With Groot, Basham and AJ being so integral to the team’s short-mid-long term success, McD and Beane and Eric Washington very likely wanted Addison on the team and for the team more than Bam. 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Hate giving up on a developing young pass rusher they’ve invested a ton in.

 

Was he a "developing" pass rusher though? As a pass rusher he hasn't shown anything since his rookie season. In preseason this year he was a non-factor against starting o-linemen, occasionally made some plays against future cuts but that's all.

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is still ahead of Bam as an end, yep. But if pre-season is to be any type of guide neither are starters and Bam is an infinitely better special teamer. 

 

I think they backed themselves into a corner on Addison with the restructure. They did it to allow themselves to re-sign Mongo, Milano and Williams. I though they should have restructured Diggs then (which they did later) and kept Addison cuttable until after the draft because I suspect once they knew they landed Groot and Boogie their perspective on Addison may have changed. 

 

It isn't a super major error that I am losing sleep over (we are arguing between their 4th best end and their 6th best end) but I do think they got this one a bit wrong. Just my opinion.

Is he? Because Addison played 71 percent of the snaps on a good ST unit (the 2013 Panthers). As I say above, ST "talent" is waaaaaaaaay overrated. Good coaching combined with functional players with intelligence (i.e., able to consistently fulfill assignments) and good kickers is pretty much all you need. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Is he? Because Addison played 71 percent of the snaps on a good ST unit (the 2013 Panthers). As I say above, ST "talent" is waaaaaaaaay overrated. Good coaching combined with functional players with intelligence (i.e., able to consistently fulfill assignments) and good kickers is pretty much all you need. 

 

I disagree with your general take on special teams. What I'd say about Addison is I suspect he moved much faster downfield in 2013 than in 2021. 

[RobbRiddick]

It's nice of Beane to give something back to the Panthers. In the Carolina/Buffalo relationship this is the equivalent of him offering them a reach around 

[dave mcbride]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea that is Addison. But I don't think it matters that much if it is Addison or Obada or Basham or even Johnson. We are talking about the 4th best end on the team and I'd have kept Bam's special teams prowess at a cheap value. I value special teams much higher than most football fans. Equally I'd have traded Obada before trading Bam too.

ST prowess? Please quantify that. Because I look around the league and see STs filled with guys not good enough to start. The good units make fewer mistakes than the more mistake prone units. It's pretty simple.

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree with your general take on special teams. What I'd say about Addison is I suspect he moved much faster downfield in 2013 than in 2021. 

He's still 260, which is what he was back then too. I feel very, very strongly about ST, but I realize people disagree with me. My basic view is that a) kickers do really matter; b) coverage and blocking is basically done by interchangeable players, some of whom make fewer mistakes than others; and c) punt and kickoff coverage is small part of the game in the grand scheme of things, especially given all of the fair catches and touchbacks. The Bils offense ran 1034 plays last season and the Bills D ran 1025. The Bills also had 67 punt and kickoff returns and defended against 46 returns. 70.3 percent of Bass's kicks were touchbacks. The numbers don't lie.

Edited August 30, 2021 by dave mcbride

[First Round Bust]

it was either cut Johnson or Obada and get nothing for them or take what the market offers,  Panthers needed someone better than current roster offers to get back the 5 sacks they lost cutting Obada, plus some special teams play; Bills get 5+ sacks from Obada not likely to get from Johnson and likely Gilliam take Johnson spot on ST

[BillsFanForever19]

1 hour ago, poblano said:

But the report is that Johnson has struggled in those duties.

 

Thus 

 

 

And Obada doesn't play Special Teams. Which is the only reason I had them keeping Johnson and 6 DE's instead of 4 or 5. He may very well stay on. But I wouldn't look at Daryl Johnson being traded as a guarantee Obada makes it. I could very easily see them just keeping Hughes, Addison, Rousseau, Epenesa, and Basham.

[Cotton Fitzsimmons]

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

 

The ole reverse pipeline move!

Miyagi, my good friend, that sounds like the old BANANA IN THE TAILPIPE:

 

 

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

ST prowess? Please quantify that. Because I look around the league and see STs filled with guys not good enough to start. The good units make fewer mistakes than the more mistake prone units. It's pretty simple.

He's still 260, which is what he was back then too. I feel very, very strongly about ST, but I realize people disagree with me. My basic view is that a) kickers do really matter; b) coverage and blocking is basically done by interchangeable players, some of whom make fewer mistakes than others; and c) punt and kickoff coverage is small part of the game in the grand scheme of things, especially given all of the fair catches and touchbacks. The Bils offense ran 1034 plays last season and the Bills D ran 1025. The Bills also had 67 punt and kickoff returns and defended against 46 returns. 70.3 percent of Bass's kicks were touchbacks. The numbers don't lie.

 

I couldn't disagree more strongly. 

[FilthyBeast]

20 minutes ago, clayboy54 said:

You are most certainly welcome to your opinion, but your blanket statement is ridiculous. I think you and quite a few others on here just don't like our defensive philosophy. Many want a huge nose tackle like Ted Washington and run-stuffing MLB. Fine. If that's what you expect then Beane has failed miserably. But, that is not reality for the Bills defense.

 

The Bills run a defense that thrives on sideline to sideline mobility. This, as others have said, makes a solid pass-stopping defense. So, if you're expecting FA acquisions and draft picks that fit a run-stuffing style, then you're welcome to be critical but you won't be happy.

 

As I see it, we have a really promising group of defensive talent crafted to stop the pass in this pass-happy NFL.

 

Most of the high profile players on defense that Beane has drafted or signed as FA have not panned out including Edmunds, Addision, Oliver, etc.

 

And yes not going to lie, I hate the 'bend but don't break' style of defense because when it breaks so to speak it's not pretty (see both games against KC)

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

 

And yes not going to lie, I hate the 'bend but don't break' style of defense because when it breaks so to speak it's not pretty (see both games against KC)

 

Except it didn't really break the first time. It kept KC below their season average in points. We lost that game on offense. Granted, the AFCCG was ugly. 

[JohnNord]

2 hours ago, Process said:

 

Interesting. Johnson has looked good, would much rather have traded or cut Addison, who at this point brings very little to the table. 

 

At the end of the day someone had to go, so can't be mad at getting a draft pick out of it. 

 

If it was between Johnson and Obada, the Bills made the right call.  Obada dominated in the preseason and while he doesn’t play Special Teams, I think what brings as a pass rusher is greater than that what Johnson brings on ST.  
 

Of course, I would rather keep Johnson over Addison but I don’t think this was option

[Straight Hucklebuck]

24-year old former 7th Round-pick that has found a way to stick on this roster for 2-years, and we get a 6th back?

 

Why not just cut Addison and keep Johnson? 

[dave mcbride]

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I couldn't disagree more strongly. 

Then quantify it. 

[Doc]

41 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I didn't necessarily just mean money. Loyalty matters to these guys and I suspect they had a frank conversation with Mario - a guy they both know and rightly have a ton of respect for - and said we want you to take a pay cut (which is what it was not just a restructure) to keep you on the team and there was an understanding from both sides that was the deal. I am not saying that is the only factor in the decision but I do think it played in.

 

I think that they don't believe Johnson has progressed enough in his first 2 years.  Plus Addison is a veteran and trading/cutting him would leave a pretty green DE room.  I'll certainly keep an ear out for Johnson on the Panthers (and hope that Addison outplays him).

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

54 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Because Addison is better than johnson today.  His value is also lower with a cap squeeze in place around the league.

 

I'm not absolutely certain that Addison is better today, but what I am certain of in spite of what many on this board seemed to think, in NFL it's very difficult to trade a 34 YO player, with a big contract, and who didn't do all that much last season.   If you look at talent produced per $$ spent, Johnson  is likely the better value, but there just isn't much value in cutting Addison as his hit would be close to what he's being paid.

[HappyDays]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Why not just cut Addison and keep Johnson? 

 

Addison and Johnson have totally different roles on the team. Addison is a rotational pass rusher. Johnson was just a special teams gunner. He was never going to see the field on defense. I don't know how many gunners we need but we still have Jones, Neal, and Kumerow on the roster. If McDermott and Farwell decide we only need two gunners then Kumerow is probably gone.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

27 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

And Obada doesn't play Special Teams. Which is the only reason I had them keeping Johnson and 6 DE's instead of 4 or 5. He may very well stay on. But I wouldn't look at Daryl Johnson being traded as a guarantee Obada makes it. I could very easily see them just keeping Hughes, Addison, Rousseau, Epenesa, and Basham.

 

Thought I read early on that Obada was playing ST??

 

Suppose too politically it just didn't make any sense for Carolina to trade for Obada, would make them look rather dumb.

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

I think that they don't believe Johnson has progressed enough in his first 2 years. 

 

As a pass rusher I don't think he's progressed at all. A lot of people in this thread are conflating "developing" with "young." Some players hit the NFL as good as they'll ever be. I don't see Johnson ever being more than a depth piece as a pass rusher. I'm guessing the Panthers traded for him for his special teams ability, and we have more than enough special teams players on the roster to get something back for one. I'm surprised this is even a controversial trade. Before training camp I had assumed Johnson would end up not making the team and he didn't do anything in camp or preseason to change that outlook.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Then quantify it. 

 

It is fewer snaps, I get that, but special teams errors can be momentum swings they can be easy scores, they are stolen possessions. Just looking at the numbers and saying "ah well it isn't a third of the game numerically" misses the point for me. Nobody is arguing it is as important as offense or defense but it isn't an after thought and if you treat it like that you will suffer. And it isn't just me that thinks this.... a lot of the best coaches in the NFL do too. I don't have the Bills 2018 special team yards given up to hand but it was a lot and it hurt the team. Equally I know Roberts had the best overall return numbers across two disciplines in the league last year. That helped the team.

[Logic]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I may get flamed for this, but ST players are fairly interchangeable. It's an area where coaching really matters because you're not putting your best talent out there; rather, you're putting guys out there who can fulfill an assignment and be basically functional at running, blocking, and tackling. You don't want untalented morons on ST, but let's not overvalue it. The Bills hardly punted very little last season (relatively speaking) and most kickoffs were touchbacks. They have a big-leg placekicker, so I expect that to continue. 

Some special teams players ARE interchangeable, it’s true. 
 

The really good ones, though, add value to your kick and punt units — both coverage and return. It’s why guys like Taiwan Jones, Tyler Matakevich, and Matthew Slater have 10 year careers in the NFL.

If the really good special teams players of the league were so easily replaceable, you’d think they wouldn’t have such career longevity, since they often don’t contribute much on offense or defense.

 

Im not saying Bam was in that “really good” tier, necessarily, though recent comments by Beane and Farwell indicate that he may be. I’m just saying that in a game that often features small margins of victory, field position and special teams play matter, and Bam helped in those areas.