Travis Kelce... is open on every play

[Low Positive]

The reason Kelce is open is that he starts  a lot of plays as a blocker. He then spins his blockeee/defender out when he releases and creates separation that way. Once he gets the ball he's good for 10.

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

That’s exactly my question, what’s stopping them?

 

Some of that is Kelce, no argument, but a lot of that is also scheme.

 

Kelce blocks and then runs delayed routes all the time. He can setup the guy he's blocking, push off and run to voids. 

 

Hard to do that with wr's. 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

Would you be happy with 75% of Kelce’s production?  

yes. But do we have that kind of tight end on our roster? Knox is solid but he’s a fringe top 10 tight end in the league now. Kelce is possibly the greatest right end of all time. Big difference.

[Aussie Joe]

1 minute ago, FrenchConnection said:

The reason Kelce is open is that he starts  a lot of plays as a blocker. He then spins his blockeee/defender out when he releases and creates separation that way. Once he gets the ball he's good for 10.

I agree with this… can the defender do something different to stop him releasing… like get tangled up with him? Easier said then done I’m sure 

[Herc11]

KC loves crossing routes and pick plays. 

[What a Tuel]

17 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

I agree with this… can the defender do something different to stop him releasing… like get tangled up with him? Easier said then done I’m sure 

 

No because then it is defensive holding. He has mastered it but in my opinion its bull crap. 

 

Today the Jaguars just refused to cover him though as shown in this video. Just ridiculous. Like forget double coverage. At least put ONE person on him.

 

 

Only one of them at :21, he literally pushes the defender slightly out of frame then slants left and is magically wide open. 

 

I think officials need to start recognizing when he is blocking and when he is running a route because he conflates the two consistently allowing him to freely commit OPI.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by What a Tuel

[Mark Vader]

2 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

So you don’t think Dorsey should shoplift some of Reid’s most successful plays then?

No, he can do that. 

[Lothar]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

Dr Dre is basically Dr Pepper with only 4 of the 7 ingredients. 

Dr Pepper is mostly Dr Bronner's peppermint soap with all the natural ingredients missing. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Kelce is open on every damn play.  Not a step on the defender open, but no one within five yards of him open. 

 

Kelce is obviously a fantastic football player with an incredible mix of size and athleticism, but what you see on the field with Kelce is the value of Andy Reid off the field.  Reid is able to scheme that guy open a hundred different ways.  He is the focal point of the Chiefs' offense, he is the one guy the defense absolutely has to cover, and he is still running wide open all over the field.   

 

Dorsey needs to shamelessly steal every one of Andy Reid's designed Kelce plays and put them in his playbook.  Run them with Knox, run them with Diggs.  I don't care who you run them with, if they have five yards of empty turf around them, the play is going to move the sticks.  

 

If imitation is the highest from of flattery, Dorsey needs to start blowing some sunshine up Andy's prodigious backside ASAP.

 

 

And you watch it, and some of them he just runs, finds a spot, hesitates for half a second, and drifts away from

coverage to the open spot.

 

If he gets a free release, it’s almost impossible to contain him.

 

If you go one on one and play physical, he at least has to work harder. 
 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Billznut]

Kelce will be wide open until the day he retires. Forget stopping him, I’d be thrilled to contain or slow him. We don’t have a good history of that. Maybe next week will be different if we make it. I won’t hold my breath on containing him next week either. 

[LABILLBACKER]

It can be done but most DC's are terrified doing it. Put your best man coverage guy ( Elam ) on press coverage all game. Then on top of that bracket him with your strong safety (Edmunds/ Marlowe). Yes it puts everyone in man coverage but we're talking about 17 targets / 14 receptions for nearly 100yds + 2tds. Make someone else beat you. Hill is gone.

[Ralonzo]

3 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

Just triple cover him every play. I feel like teams don't do this enough 

It doesn’t require that. Vs Jax the guy that was supposed to double cover Kelce ***** off to cover someone else and the the guy that was supposed to cover Kelce ***** off to cover a patch of mud, if I didn’t know better I’d say someone has to be on the take to actively run AWAY from the opponents biggest threat.

[Gunsgoodtime]

Cant wait until Cincinnati this week!  The real game

Cant wait until Cincinnati this week!  The real game

[BillsVet]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

You're not going to get similar results w Knox no matter how many plays you steal 

 

Especially when Knox is needed to block and not running routes.  You want to maximize the passing game?  Stop nickel and diming the OL with poor pass blockers who need TE help.  

 

3 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

Chargers should have won. They are pretty good at locking down Kelce. They put Derwin James on him man to man and hit him at the line so he can't get a clean release. Unlike the Bills who play zone 10 yards off and leave him wide open

 

James could not keep up with Kelce at the end of the Chargers game in LA Week 11.  Matched up against James 1:1, Kelce ran a short crossing route and scored from 17 yards out...and James was a 2nd Team All Pro this season.  

[Billsfanatic8989]

Look at what Belichick did to him in the championship game a few years ago. Or other times Belichick limited him (And Hill at the time). Study those games.

 

Put a corner on him. Make those other receivers beat you. 

 

Teams had the same issue with Brady & Gronk though. The dude always seemed to be open on every play. 

 

 

[Nephilim17]

I don't think Kelce being open all the time is because of scheme at all. I think they call a lot of short routes for Kelce and he has the latitude to find the hole in the zone and Mahomes trusts him.

Plus, every time Kelce is thrown the ball he catches it — and often runs, sometimes breaking tackles, for a lot of YAC. 

Kelce is smart; he catches the ball, he runs hard and breaks tackles.

Can Knox do that? Not to the same degree plus it requires Josh's buy in like Mahomes does for Kelce. This is not scheme. It's a smart and strong tight end with great hands and a QB who trusts him implicitly.

[BobbyC81]

7 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Yeah. Kelce is just pretty damn good at finding/creating that open space too.

Still, the Bills have to double team him and stop with that frustrating soft zone. Make someone else beat you.

4 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

It can be done but most DC's are terrified doing it. Put your best man coverage guy ( Elam ) on press coverage all game. Then on top of that bracket him with your strong safety (Edmunds/ Marlowe). Yes it puts everyone in man coverage but we're talking about 17 targets / 14 receptions for nearly 100yds + 2tds. Make someone else beat you. Hill is gone.

Right.  The Bills rush 4 and there are 5 O-linemen and a QB, so that leaves 7 defenders covering 5 possible receivers. You can put 2 on Kelce

[Einstein]

8 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

Just triple cover him every play. I feel like teams don't do this enough 

 

McD and Frazier refuse to do this.

 

I won’t claim to know more than an NFL coach but it seems to make sense in my mind to chuck Kelce off the line with a LB or DE and then let the coverage defenders handle him afterward. 

 

Its infuriating to watch him catch pass after pass.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

8 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

If it was that easy as “copying” wouldn’t every team be doing it? 

Kyler's too busy playing the new version of 'Call To Duty' to study the technique. 😁

Edited January 22, 2023 by Ridgewaycynic2013

[78thealltimegreat]

This looks more Kelce than anything Reid schemes up and Andy is terrific at scheming guys open. 
I saw this for years with Jason Witten in Dallas guy had the 40 yard dash of an olineman but would always get open cause of certain routes and techniques he excelled at. 
Great players make the game look a lot easier than it is and he is just a great player.
Another guy like that is Mark Andrews in Baltimore he’s just in a really really run heavy offense and doesn’t get the chance to show his skills as much. 

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

Watched a few of the <many catches> Kelce had. All were against zone. Kelce is very very good at exploiting zone coverage, and Mahomes trusts Kelce to see the same soft spots in the zone he does.

 

Not once did anyone try bump and run vs him (jamming within 5 yards) or cover him 1:1 with a large CB/S/fast LB. Teams did that with Gronk to break up the rhythm between Brady and him to mixed success.

 

Kelce always had a clean release, unless he was blocking and runs to open spots in the zone. Even if he is blocking he knows when to release and where to run.

 

Reasons for that:

 

1. Even when you do bump and run him he is just bigger and better. I forget the game earlier this year (was his 4 TD day) a team actually knocked him down onto his backside at the snap. Result of the play? Touchdown caught by Travis Kelce. 

 

2. His cuts for a guy his size are incredible. That is what he does so much better than Gronk. He cuts like a 5'10 slot receiver. So you can try and ask a big linebacker or a safety to take him 1v1 in man but his change of direction he gets open. One of the early 3rd downs last night the Jags had a safety on him in man he just made a nasty cut and got separation.

 

3. Reid is absolutely brilliant at taking the eyes of the D elsewhere "oh this is a play going to MVS on the boundary", Kelce is in "blocking" and Mahomes is patient enough to wait until the safety cheats to the boundary, Kelce slides off his chip and heads to the middle of the field.

 

4. As far as last night goes... the Jags were 32nd in the NFL defending tight ends. 

[TAinLack.]

8 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

Just triple cover him every play. I feel like teams don't do this enough 

or bump his azz on the line of scrimmage every frigg'n play!!

[Just Jack]

8 hours ago, GolfandBills said:

Mahomes thrives in the short/quick passing game.  Allen/Dorsey refuse to do it 

That’s what Brady/Patriots did for all those years.  Little 3-5 yard dump off passes.  Doesn’t look pretty, but only took 2 or 3 to get another first down. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, TAinLA said:

or bump his azz on the line of scrimmage every frigg'n play!!

 

He is bigger and stronger than whoever you are bumping him with.

[Mikey152]

It’s not really Andy Reid, and honestly it’s not really Travis Kelce either…he’s a great TE, but I see some people on here saying he’s just too big and too fast and that, flat out, is not the reason. Nobody wants to hear it, but it really comes down to his position and his quarterback.

 

First, as a position TE is almost unguardable when they play in-line because the guys lining up over him (dl and lb) are trying to tackle the guy with the ball. If they focus too much on the TE, your pass rush and run defense suffers. If you try and cover him with a CB or Safety, you expose your back end and run defense. The way to stop a good TE without sacrificing other aspects of your defense is by playing zone and getting consistent pressure that gets home.

 

Thats where the qb comes in. Mahomes makes teams pay if they pay too much attention to Kelce…but even more so his elusiveness and ability to buy time with his eyes downfield negates the best weapon at stopping a TE: pass rush. Mahomes abilty to threaten the whole field, combined with his ability to buy time and make plays is what makes Kelce great. With enough time, any decent TE or Rb can find space in a zone.

 

I will give Reid this, though…that dude is a master a scheming “legal” opi. One more reason it is tough to play man against Kelce

[Tim Tindale]

5 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Especially when Knox is needed to block and not running routes.  You want to maximize the passing game?  Stop nickel and diming the OL with poor pass blockers who need TE help.  

 

 

James could not keep up with Kelce at the end of the Chargers game in LA Week 11.  Matched up against James 1:1, Kelce ran a short crossing route and scored from 17 yards out...and James was a 2nd Team All Pro this season.  

Kelce went for 10-115-3 in that second Charger game. Not sure that constitutes textbook containment of Kelce. 

[HappyDays]

26 minutes ago, Mikey152 said:

It’s not really Andy Reid, and honestly it’s not really Travis Kelce either…he’s a great TE, but I see some people on here saying he’s just too big and too fast and that, flat out, is not the reason. Nobody wants to hear it, but it really comes down to his position and his quarterback.

 

First, as a position TE is almost unguardable when they play in-line because the guys lining up over him (dl and lb) are trying to tackle the guy with the ball. If they focus too much on the TE, your pass rush and run defense suffers. If you try and cover him with a CB or Safety, you expose your back end and run defense. The way to stop a good TE without sacrificing other aspects of your defense is by playing zone and getting consistent pressure that gets home.

 

Thats where the qb comes in. Mahomes makes teams pay if they pay too much attention to Kelce…but even more so his elusiveness and ability to buy time with his eyes downfield negates the best weapon at stopping a TE: pass rush. Mahomes abilty to threaten the whole field, combined with his ability to buy time and make plays is what makes Kelce great. With enough time, any decent TE or Rb can find space in a zone.

 

I will give Reid this, though…that dude is a master a scheming “legal” opi. One more reason it is tough to play man against Kelce

 

Kelce had 1,100 yards in 2016 and 1,000 yards in 2017 with Alex Smith as his QB. His average yearly production has obviously gone up with a better QB but he is a great TE in a great system no matter who is throwing him the ball.

[SoCal Deek]

It’s funny but watching the Chiefs use Kelce yesterday I kept saying “Yeah, like that, keep doing that.” I swear they could throw it to him on twenty consecutive plays if they wanted to. Every throw was between 5 and 15 yards right over the middle. I’d love to see the same thing from the Bills today. Slow and methodically move the chains down the field. You could see how frustrating it was for Jacksonville. 

[Mr. WEO]

These "why don't they just cover Kelce???" threads never get old

[finn]

9 hours ago, Buffalo03 said:

He doesn't really scheme him open, if you have ever noticed on replays, a lot of times Kelce is running in one direction and then stops and starts running back the other direction and gets himself open on his own. It's not always Reid getting him open on routes

Exactly. It's a short-passing game, but that doesn't always mean quick passes from Mahomes. Sometimes Kelce gets open quickly, but other times he moves around within ten yards while Mahomes buys time until he's open. For some reason that I cannot fathom, teams (like the Bengals last night) insist on covering him with a linebacker. Put it all together--an escape-artist QB (up to now) with excellent accuracy, an exceptionally elusive TE, and a LB in single coverage, and you have "He's open every play!" 

 

It seems to me the answer is to put a safety or big CB on him, maybe two. Take your chances elsewhere. 

[foreboding]

10 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

So what’s stopping them ? Kelce has been kicking their ass for years…

 

Im more worried how the Bills stop him next week ( if they win of course… I’m. not looking past the Bengals ) 

You don't really stop Kelce, you have to just make Mahommes very uncomfortable and challenge Kelce every play so things don't come as easy as it did yesterday. He set records for crying out loud.

[NewEra]

10 hours ago, balln said:

It’s the combo of Reid and mahommes 

 

mahommes is much more consistently accurate short to intermediate to allow these schemes to work 

Mahomes was super accurate while when his soul jumped into Henne’s body and completed 5 of 7 short to intermediate passes on the 98 yard TD drive.  
 

Reid is special and seems to be getting better with his play calling.  
 

Mahommes is special too….. but I’m eager to see how he does withOUT Andy Reid.  Danie
 

 

[Buffalo03]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

McD and Frazier refuse to do this.

 

I won’t claim to know more than an NFL coach but it seems to make sense in my mind to chuck Kelce off the line with a LB or DE and then let the coverage defenders handle him afterward. 

 

Its infuriating to watch him catch pass after pass.

I mean, if I was a DC, I would triple cover Kelce and let Juju, MVS, Toney and Hardman beat me. I wouldn't even let Kelce off the line of scrimmage

14 minutes ago, finn said:

Exactly. It's a short-passing game, but that doesn't always mean quick passes from Mahomes. Sometimes Kelce gets open quickly, but other times he moves around within ten yards while Mahomes buys time until he's open. For some reason that I cannot fathom, teams (like the Bengals last night) insist on covering him with a linebacker. Put it all together--an escape-artist QB (up to now) with excellent accuracy, an exceptionally elusive TE, and a LB in single coverage, and you have "He's open every play!" 

 

It seems to me the answer is to put a safety or big CB on him, maybe two. Take your chances elsewhere. 

I would probably do something like Tre White cover him all game and give him some safety help behind him and bump his ass at the line

Edited January 22, 2023 by Buffalo03

[Kaenon]

10 hours ago, balln said:

It’s the combo of Reid and mahommes 

 

mahommes is much more consistently accurate short to intermediate to allow these schemes to work 

I think it's Kelce

[LyndonvilleBill]

28 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

I mean, if I was a DC, I would triple cover Kelce and let Juju, MVS, Toney and Hardman beat me. I wouldn't even let Kelce off the line of scrimmage

I would probably do something like Tre White cover him all game and give him some safety help behind him and bump his ass at the line

I would put Elam on him and say your entire purpose in life is to stick on Kelce. Let White, Jackson, Benford or whoever handle the WR'S. If Kelce stays in and blocks, so be it. If he comes off the field, use Elam as a Blitzer. 

[T master]

11 hours ago, GolfandBills said:

Mahomes thrives in the short/quick passing game.  Allen/Dorsey refuse to do it 

 

At the beginning of the season Josh seemed to be doing this exact thing & they were just dominating just about every game then he just seemed to go away from it during the period where they had lost those few games I hope he gets back to it they have started using the run game more which is good !

 

If Dorsey can marry the 2 runtime & the short passing game i think they will get back to being for the most part unstoppable .

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Tim Tindale said:

Kelce went for 10-115-3 in that second Charger game. Not sure that constitutes textbook containment of Kelce. 

Was not my point. The guy was covered by a 2nd Team All Pro on that okay and managed to beat him. Defending against Kelce is more than chipping at the LOS or putting a DB on him. 

[Dopey]

11 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

That’s exactly my question, what’s stopping them?

 

Some of that is Kelce, no argument, but a lot of that is also scheme.

Some of it is Mahomes too. 
Sorry guys, Josh to Knox doesn’t even come close to Mahomes and Kelsey. 

[TAinLack.]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is bigger and stronger than whoever you are bumping him with.

I realize that but get somebody in his way, many times he goes untouched and goes wherever he wants to.  Some physical contact off the line of scrimmage can't hurt at all.

[transient]

8 hours ago, Lothar said:

Dr Pepper is mostly Dr Bronner's peppermint soap with all the natural ingredients missing. 

Dr Bronner’s peppermint soap is essentially Dr Kevorkian, it just takes longer to kill you.