Was that Zach Moss run actually impressive?

[transplantbillsfan]

I'm gonna get trolled on this because "dude!!! He gained 27 yards!!!" but is there anyone else who watched that run and wasn't impressed?

 

Sorry... if you watch the play and his initial read as he follows his block, it just looked like more confirmation he has poor vision as he basically ran into the backside of his blocker who was pretty early and clearly getting stuffed rather than bouncing earlier to the outside left, which he finally and eventually did.

 

I mean I liked the speed and the play made me excited, but he looked so clumsy and lacking in vision and instincts in the first half of that play, didn't he?

[GunnerBill]

I am far from a Zack Moss lover but he rushed three times for 5, 5, and 27 behind a line so bad that none of the other backs even hit 2 yards per carry and there was only one other run of 5 yards plus in the entire game. So I am gonna give him the benefit of the doubt. 

[billsbackto81]

If completely healthy, and it looks like he is, he's making the team. 

 

The Motor/Moss/Cook combo is a pretty nice young trio that each bring a specific skill set to the table. 

[Nelius]

I'll have to rewatch because I didn't notice the clumsiness initially. I think the run and his general stat line is being considered impressive in the sense that he looked pretty solid overall and many discounted him earlier as a cut, so now there's over compensation in the other direction. I personally think he's going to not only make the team but be a surprising goal line force. I called earlier that he'd have at least 8 overall regular season TDs.

[Doc Brown]

He was following Morris and was looking for the hole to open up to the right.  Morris got rocked by the rushing LB and blew up the play.  Moss made a nice cut back and showed some speed that was lacking last year.  It was an impressive run given what he had to deal with.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

It was preseason impressive… so was Christian Wade 🙃 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[StHustle]

Would help to post the vid for folks…

 

 

…but yeah I agree. Wasn’t the prettiest play and had he got off clean maybe he scores…OR he got even more yards cause running into his blocker moved a few defenders out of place to make the tackle sooner (don’t have access to all 22). Wasn’t like he did it on purpose tho so it was def clumsy but he still had one of the longest runs of the weekend. 

[Bookie Man]

It worked out, but it looked a little klutzy and unathletic. It looks like he takes too many steps and gets a little choppy with his feet and runs into his own blocker, rather than making a decisive right footed plant and turning it upfield inside that block. Oh well, what do I know.

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I am far from a Zack Moss lover but he rushed three times for 5, 5, and 27 behind a line so bad that none of the other backs even hit 2 yards per carry and there was only one other run of 5 yards plus in the entire game. So I am gonna give him the benefit of the doubt. 

 

And you watched that 27 yard run live and thought it was a good initial read?

[GunnerBill]

31 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

And you watched that 27 yard run live and thought it was a good initial read?

 

I think if Morris (I think it is Morris) doesn't get rocked off his feet there is going to be a lane there and when there isn't he at least has the speed of thought to create. The run blocking was an utter shambles all night. I get it that it was a mix of 2s and 3s up front for us (and at tight end) but I think looking at the running backs is looking in the wrong place. 

[GETTOTHE50]

dude cmon give him credit.

 

he played well out there. props to him. hope to see more of it

[Rochesterfan]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

I'm gonna get trolled on this because "dude!!! He gained 27 yards!!!" but is there anyone else who watched that run and wasn't impressed?

 

Sorry... if you watch the play and his initial read as he follows his block, it just looked like more confirmation he has poor vision as he basically ran into the backside of his blocker who was pretty early and clearly getting stuffed rather than bouncing earlier to the outside left, which he finally and eventually did.

 

I mean I liked the speed and the play made me excited, but he looked so clumsy and lacking in vision and instincts in the first half of that play, didn't he?

 

I will not troll you for this, but I will disagree.  Watching it both live and the video provided - the play is designed to go right side and there is a nice hole to the right that opens up.

 

The issue is the lead blocker (I believe Morris) gets absolutely stoned right in the hole and he allows the LB to have outside leverage.  If he gets even a tiny bit of push a lane opens up on either side for Moss to go through.  
 

Moss is following/reading that block (at Handoff he is 2 yards or about 1 stride behind Morris) to determine which way to bend off and when Morris get stoned straight back.  You can see Moss looking and taking a stutter to the right of Morris, but the LB stoned Morris and was pressuring right where the hole was.  That causes Moss to try and slide to the left side of Morris to utilize the block, but Morris is pushed back and Moss has no place to go.

 

His angle to the right causes the rest of the Defense to pursue that way and actually drive the Bills O-line and get out of lanes - which opens up the left side for the run.

 

I would not say this run shows a lack of vision - it does show some of Moss’s issues - he is not shifty and he does not have a lot of wiggle to him, but his vision saw the hole and he read the block correctly and tried to slide off from the block correctly.  The initial blocking and play call had potential, but Morris getting stuffed and not getting outside leverage blocked the actual hole.  
 

This was a blocking issue to me not a Moss issue - I think Moss ended up getting what he could out of a badly blocked run that if Morris handles correctly would have been another nice 5-7 yard run.

[eball]

Is a 27-yard run in the NFL ever UN-impressive?

 

Wait — I take that back.  Daniel Jones had a pretty unimpressive long run a couple of years ago.

 

Carry on.  Preseason threads are awesome.

[BuffaloBill]

5 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

If completely healthy, and it looks like he is, he's making the team. 

 

The Motor/Moss/Cook combo is a pretty nice young trio that each bring a specific skill set to the table. 

 

 

This ^^^^^ the three have a very complimentary set of skills and tools.  Gone are the days of a “feature” running back.  

[ProcessTruster]

That second team o Line was more like the 3rd team o Line, so I take nothing from the run but that he was running for his life, like all the RBs were all night behind the BobbyHarts crew

[Son of a K-Gun]

He looked like the 2020 Moss who we were all impressed with, gaining chunk yards after contact...if if it was contact with his own team.

[Dopey]

5 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

It was preseason impressive… so was Christian Wade 🙃 

Except Wade isn't a football player. He's a rugby player who made some $ hanging out on our practice squad. 🤔

[Buffalo Boy]

19 minutes ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

He looked like the 2020 Moss who we were all impressed with, gaining chunk yards after contact...if if it was contact with his own team.

   Was thinking the same thing.

   When he looks good, he seems like a really nice piece of the overall puzzle.

    Other times, he looks slow and replaceable.

    Was he injured/beat up last year? Is it a motivation issue? Was a poorly blocking line and bad luck an issue?

    When he and Singletary are firing on all cylinders we have a more than competent rushing attack. Add Cook and his skill set and we could have a surprisingly good backfield…… or they could be mediocre. I hope for the former but need to see a solid quarter of the season before I begin to render a judgment.

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

That second team o Line was more like the 3rd team o Line, so I take nothing from the run but that he was running for his life, like all the RBs were all night behind the BobbyHarts crew

 

Exactly. We didn't sit our top 5 guys, we sat our top 7 guys (with Quess and Mancz) and then pulled the guy you could argue is 8th on the totem pole (Ford) after the first drive on which those Moss runs occurred. So basically after that first drive the only guys I think you could argue were 2nd team OL were Doyle and Van Roten and then they were pulled at HT I think. They have cut Simmons who played RG and Kerstetter who played C in the second half already which suggests they were unimpressed. 

[HOUSE]

Is that Cody Ford I see on the clip?

 

Yes that run was impressive 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, HOUSE said:

Is that Cody Ford I see on the clip?

 

Yes that run was impressive 

 

Yea Ford played RG on the first drive (or maybe 2 definitely no more than that) and then was pulled. The rest of the "starting line" played until half time I think. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

39 minutes ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

He looked like the 2020 Moss who we were all impressed with, gaining chunk yards after contact...if if it was contact with his own team.

He wasn't impressive in 2020 though. He had a guy on the radio say he was gonna draft him earlier than he was ranked in fantasy drafts and a lot of people who never watched him thought he was the second coming of Jim Brown because of it. He hasn't been impressive anywhere he's been. 

[SectionC3]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I am far from a Zack Moss lover but he rushed three times for 5, 5, and 27 behind a line so bad that none of the other backs even hit 2 yards per carry and there was only one other run of 5 yards plus in the entire game. So I am gonna give him the benefit of the doubt. 

 

The most impressive part of 27 probably was the absorption of contact and the maintenance of his balance.  He seemed a little quicker than last year on that scamper, too. 

[MJS]

He was trying to run the play. He was following his blockers until one of his blockers gets knocked back. So yeah, he ran into him. Then he ran to open space.

 

I have no issue with the run. But you have to say some luck was involved because you don't often run into a blocker (arresting your momentum) and then make anything of the play.

[Cash]

7 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

I'm gonna get trolled on this because "dude!!! He gained 27 yards!!!" but is there anyone else who watched that run and wasn't impressed?

 

Sorry... if you watch the play and his initial read as he follows his block, it just looked like more confirmation he has poor vision as he basically ran into the backside of his blocker who was pretty early and clearly getting stuffed rather than bouncing earlier to the outside left, which he finally and eventually did.

 

I mean I liked the speed and the play made me excited, but he looked so clumsy and lacking in vision and instincts in the first half of that play, didn't he?

Dude’s lead blocker was getting stood up in the backfield. Usually that results in a bad play for the offense. But Moss stayed composed, cut back, found a great running lane, and showed some good speed getting outside for a huge gain. 
 

You do you, but that is a Good Run for the RB in my book.

[TBBills]

It's the preseason overreaction. People also think the Bills can trade every player they aren't going to have on this team.

It's a funny thing and people get mad when you call it out.

Edited August 17, 2022 by TBBills

[hemma]

I think Ford was in for 17 snaps.  From what I could see, gave up 1 pressure and 1 whiffed run block that led to a TFL.

Pretty solid run blocker.  Definitely wasn’t the worst guy out there, but he does tend to ‘point’ himself at the guy he is going to block which probably helps him offset his lack of footwork/foot speed.

[ILBillsfan]

7 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

I'm gonna get trolled on this because "dude!!! He gained 27 yards!!!" but is there anyone else who watched that run and wasn't impressed?

 

Sorry... if you watch the play and his initial read as he follows his block, it just looked like more confirmation he has poor vision as he basically ran into the backside of his blocker who was pretty early and clearly getting stuffed rather than bouncing earlier to the outside left, which he finally and eventually did.

 

I mean I liked the speed and the play made me excited, but he looked so clumsy and lacking in vision and instincts in the first half of that play, didn't he?

The guy got blocked into Moss so yes it was impressive to me..... 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

I get OP’s point in that it doesn’t seem Moss did anything exceptional to make the run happen. In other words, it was not successful due to a huge display of talent. But regardless, can’t discount the vision he used to see the cutback. That alone was impressive, especially given how down on Moss many have been. 

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

I have been on a roller coaster with Moss:  going between liking him a ton, being completely done with him and everywhere in between. It was nice to see him have a good day but man is he slow lol. It’s noticeable every time he touches the ball. He’s frustratingly slow. I think he will get used quite a bit in the preseason, maybe even to be showcased a little and then be a complete non factor once the games matter. I liked what I saw from Blackshear a lot and Duke looked strong on ST. You already know the other 2 guys are ahead of him here.. I see nowhere for Moss whatsoever when the cuts end.

[Son of a K-Gun]

23 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

He wasn't impressive in 2020 though. He had a guy on the radio say he was gonna draft him earlier than he was ranked in fantasy drafts and a lot of people who never watched him thought he was the second coming of Jim Brown because of it. He hasn't been impressive anywhere he's been. 

Moss played well enough as a rookie in 2020 to take lead back duties from Motor, then he busted up his ankle in the Colts playoff game.  Watch his2020 highlight reel and you see a lot of broken tackles, yards after contact and moving of the pile.  He also shows better speed than last season, good vision in the open field and a nose for the end zone.  Obviously these are the highlights and we aren't seeing any of the bad Moss, but he showed enough as a rookie to create some legitimate buzz going into year 2.  According to Beane, Moss was never fully healthy last year though, so the drop off can at least be explained.   Hopefully we're getting the 2020 Moss this season.

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

I thought Moss looked like Travis Henry on that run

[Freddie's Dead]

He was running the play as designed, and it done blowed up.  He reverses field, and makes chicken salad out of chicken caca.  It was impressive as *****.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Freddie's Dead

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think if Morris (I think it is Morris) doesn't get rocked off his feet there is going to be a lane there and when there isn't he at least has the speed of thought to create. The run blocking was an utter shambles all night. I get it that it was a mix of 2s and 3s up front for us (and at tight end) but I think looking at the running backs is looking in the wrong place. 

You're correct.  Moss was cutting off Morris's right hip, and Morris got stonewalled and actually pushed back a bit.  Plus, the defender was shading to the outside.  Moss was making the right cut, assuming Morris does his job.   That's how the whole team operates - I do my job, you do your job, and everything will be fine.  But the defense is doing its job, too, and in that case the defender did his job better than Morris.  

 

At that point, Moss had to improvise.  No, he didn't look like Barry Sanders making the cut, but there are no style points in football.  He had to find someplace to run, and he did that. 

 

Let's remember, Moss is supposed to be a one cut power back.  That kind of change of direction is not his specialty, and he did it effectively.   And the speed he showed was encouraging.  

 

Hard to criticize that run.  

 

More important, so far as I was concerned, was that both Moss and Cook weren't in the game long.   There have been positive reports out of camp about both of them, and the fact that they were pulled early confirmed those reports.   The coaches saw solid, positive plays from both of them, and that was all they needed.  

 

And more generally, one by one the Bills seem to be answering the questions at position after position.   Running back was a mild concern (because Cook's a rook and Moss was a question mark).  Check that box.   Cornerback was a big question, and there still is a way to go, but it seems like that box can be checked (subject to White's return).  Offensive line seems to be coming together.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Offensive line seems to be coming together.  

 

This is the bit that still worries me. Not just because of the bad performance of the 2s/3s on Saturday but because of the outstanding concerns there were from last year with that group. Hopefully they are better but it still looks like the weakest starting unit on the team to me. 

[Shaw66]

51 minutes ago, Son of a K-Gun said:

Moss played well enough as a rookie in 2020 to take lead back duties from Motor, then he busted up his ankle in the Colts playoff game.  Watch his2020 highlight reel and you see a lot of broken tackles, yards after contact and moving of the pile.  He also shows better speed than last season, good vision in the open field and a nose for the end zone.  Obviously these are the highlights and we aren't seeing any of the bad Moss, but he showed enough as a rookie to create some legitimate buzz going into year 2.  According to Beane, Moss was never fully healthy last year though, so the drop off can at least be explained.   Hopefully we're getting the 2020 Moss this season.

 

 

Thanks for this.  He was better than I remember.  His work in hole is really quite good.  

 

You can see how important effective interior line blocking is to the Bills' running game - both Singletary and Moss do a good job finding their way if they have a little space to work with.   I think we'll see Cook can do it, too.  

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is the bit that still worries me. Not just because of the bad performance of the 2s/3s on Saturday but because of the outstanding concerns there were from last year with that group. Hopefully they are better but it still looks like the weakest starting unit on the team to me. 

I hear you.  I just commented about how the backs need the line to create interior space for them to work, and we certainly didn't see that last season.  

 

It's clear that the Bills don't favor the bulldozers up front; it's a finesse line.   Dawkins, Morse, Bates, and Brown all make plays by being mobile.   I don't know much about Saffold, but I understand he is a quality run blocker.  In theory, they should be able to make it work, but we haven't seen the theory in practice yet.  And when it's fourth and one on the Tennessee two yard line with time running out, it still isn't the line that will blow the dline into the end zone.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think if Morris (I think it is Morris) doesn't get rocked off his feet there is going to be a lane there and when there isn't he at least has the speed of thought to create. The run blocking was an utter shambles all night. I get it that it was a mix of 2s and 3s up front for us (and at tight end) but I think looking at the running backs is looking in the wrong place. 

 

A lot of the criticism for Moss last season was on a lot of the same types of thing.  "He didn't read it right" - which to me could mean A- He didn't read it correctly, or B- They didn't block it correctly. 

 

Singletary had a few nice games as the year went on, but they were against atlanta and the jets.  Played well in NE as well.  They more emphasized giving him touches than him being especially effective.  He had 16 ore more touches 4 times last year and it was in 4 of the last 6 games.  The Touchdowns were a nice touch for fantasy purposes, and generally for Josh Allen healthiness :-).

 

Moss broke more tackles on fewer carries, and had probably the worst yards before contact in the NFL.  Some of that can be tied to lacking some burst maybe on the ankle, or some indecisiveness etc.  But 1.5 yards before contact per attempt?  Worse than Najee Harris, Saquan Barkley, Mattison etc.  Its among the worst numbers in the league.  The offensive line didn't block well for him (or singletary for that matter). 

 

However the league leader in attempts/broken tackle was javonte williams at 6.5, and if Moss met the threshold to qualify (he only had 96 carries) he would have been 2nd at 6.9.  Moss 8.6 att/br in 2020 was 4th in the league behind Montgomery, Gibson, and Mike Davis.  He's still a load to bring down, he just needs to get a little juice to get to the hole a bit faster maybe?  I wouldn't give up on him though.  

[Big Turk]

8 hours ago, Nelius said:

I'll have to rewatch because I didn't notice the clumsiness initially. I think the run and his general stat line is being considered impressive in the sense that he looked pretty solid overall and many discounted him earlier as a cut, so now there's over compensation in the other direction. I personally think he's going to not only make the team but be a surprising goal line force. I called earlier that he'd have at least 8 overall regular season TDs.

 

It's impressive in that the OLine out there was hot garbage 

[Mr. WEO]

It was his greatest run ever...

[DrDawkinstein]

7 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

And you watched that 27 yard run live and thought it was a good initial read?

 

He went where the play was supposed to go until the LB blew up the lead blocker.

 

Blame the lead blocker for not getting out fast enough. Blame the LB for making a good play. But Moss was doing exactly what he was supposed to do, and then made a good, very quick change.

 

What else is he supposed to do? Assume before the snap that his lead blocker is going to get blown up and run the wrong direction from the snap?