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Shaw66

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  1. So I gather you're a nihilistic contrarian. I don't know exactly what that is, but I know I like it! Thanks for the nice discussion. I get that you're dubious. I am too. We keep talking about the Ravens, and after reading several of you folks here discussing it, I'm as troubled as you that Daboll didn't have better answers. And abandoning the running game against the Texans really bothered me. SoI'm on board with everyone else in the sense that Daboll hasn't been good enough. But, as you say, Beane and McD seem to think that we haven't seen the best of Daboll yet. I think they'd tell you it's a combination of talent, experience and Daboll's growth. The talent needs to be better, the young players who have played for the past year or two have to keep growing and get deeper into Daboll's system, and Daboll needs to be better at scheming and play calling. The way McDermott's process works is that it doesn't simply say to everyone "get better." The process exams everyone's performance and identifies particular aspects of how they did the job that need to change. The process identifies not only what needs to change; it also generates specific ideas about how to change. I think McDermott expects Daboll to be materially better next year. Sorry I responded to a point you didn't make. You did say, however, that those QBs were ruined, and my point was that I don't believe that QBs are ruined. I believe that if you have what it takes to be a franchise QB, you make it. David Carr maybe is the one example of a potential franchise QB being ruined. But JP, EJ and Trent were not ruined by their offensive coordinators. There was and is no environment in the modern NFL where they would have been a franchise guy. That tells me that I'm not as troubled as you if Daboll has been giving Josh more than he can handle. Josh has shown no signs of being ruined, so far as I can see. He's just getting better, he's learning. I do think, as I've said, that there is a good chance that the Bills have sacrificed short-term success for long-term growth with their dedication to the process. Asking Allen to handle the entire offense, rather that dialing it back, and particularly rather being more focused on the run, may be one example of that. As I've said several times, I'm happy to be patient with the process because so far it has accomplished what McBeane told us it would. That tells me McDermott knows what he's doing, even if we're sitting out here scratching our heads wondering what's going on.
  2. Good teams don't fire their OCs, so good teams don't hire new OCs. McDermott and Daboll had no history together whatsoever when the Bills hired him. What buddy, nepotism are you talking about? Why can't you accept the simple fact that McDermott sees what Daboll is doing and thinks that Daboll is the right guy for the job?
  3. I agree. Being a fan often brings with it an odd mentality. You (not you, Hap, but the generic fan) want so desperately for your team to be good that you take it as a personal affront when it isn't good immediately, no matter where you've come from or what the strategy is that's being applied to get good. What you see is McVeigh winning instantly in LA and you ask why the Bills can't do that? At least that's what you ask in 2018, and in 2019 when the Rams go 9-7 and don't make the playoffs you stop talking about them and start in with the Titans. It's hard for some to recognize that there are different personalities, different styles, different approaches and different arrays of inherited personnel that cause every situation to be different from your situation. For me, I'm okay if what I'm seeing from the team is consistent with what the coach is telling me about his approach to getting good. In this case, we are seeing pretty much exactly what McBeane told us we'd get, and it's improving from year to year, as they said, so that makes me willing to be patient. My recollection of Jauron was that, without exactly throwing his current players under the bus, he seemed to be saying every year that he needed better players. Well, he was in the job for three and half or four years, and you'd think that along the way he would have stumbled across some better players. So in his case, what we were seeing on the field was consistent with what he was telling us - despite the opportunity to improve talent for several years, the play on the field didn't get better. Rex the same thing. In both cases, I was pretty unhappy by the time they left. I'm not unhappy today.
  4. Wow, you've really gotten yourself going about this stuff. I think you're confusing two or three different points, and I'm not sure what your actual point is. First, I've never bought the notion that QBs are "ruined" by being thrown into the fire too early. It's absurd, in my mind, to say that Trent Edwards, JP Losman and EJ Manuel were "ruined" because they didn't get more time on the bench. There wasn't anything anyone was going to do to make any one of those guys franchise QBs. Troy Aikman wasn't ruined, Peyton Manning wasn't ruined, John Elway wasn't ruined by starting early. So I don't agree with anything you say about that. Second, the fact that Peterman and Anderson didn't succeed in the Daboll's complicated system doesn't prove that running the system is wrong - it proves that it takes time to learn to run the system. It simply may be the case that any young QB is going to struggle in his system for a while, and any old mediocre QB is going to struggle in it. Now, there's a real discussion to be had about whether it would be better to layer on the levels of complexity as your QB masters one level after another. It doesn't seem that Daboll has done that, and at least based comments I remember, McDermott doesn't believe that's the right approach. He has said often that he has a scheme and he gives his players that scheme to run and he expects them to grow into it. You can argue that that's the wrong approach, and I'm sure there are coaches who go about it differently, and I certainly can't prove that you're wrong, but I also don't believe it's possible to prove you're right, either. In any case, I don't think McDermott is going to ruin Josh Allen doing it this way. And because I don't think you can ruin Josh Allen by playing him, I think it's irrelevant whether Allen was more NFL ready than Darnold or Rosen or Mayfield. So what? That isn't a reason to sit him. And, by the way, if those guys were more NFL ready (and, by the way, based on his college experience, Lamar Jackson definitely was NOT NFL ready), throwing Allen into the fire seems to have worked, because after two NFL seasons Allen is the best of the top four prospects. I think the big, fundamental, philosophical difference one can have with what it seems McDermott is doing with the offense is that he seems to be sacrificing, perhaps unnecessarily, short-term success for long-term success. I think what critics like you really are saying is that McDermott, Daboll and Beane could have done more to make the offense more effective. Some of that, and the real point of this discussion, is that Daboll should have but wasn't able to accomplish more. His critics are saying he's been an OC for a long time, and if he wasn't able to do any better in 2019 with what he had, that's pretty good evidence he just isn't good enough. That is, he's no different than the corner back who just isn't fast enough or the quarterback whose arm just isn't strong enough. That's a judgment that McDermott and Beane have to make, and it seems they've made it for this year. It seems that they believe that Daboll can learn to do all that he should be doing, and that it's a good investment to work with him another year. On that final point, I have to admit that you and others have raised a lot of good points suggesting Daboll just isn't up to the challenge. A lot of it sounds right to me. I also have a lot of respect for McDermott, his judgment, and his willingness to make hard decisions, and what McDermott is saying to us is that Daboll is a guy he can build with. That's enough for me to decide just to be patient and go with it for another year.
  5. There's a lot to be said for this perspective. When all else fails, what can we go back to that we know will work? I thought that was the short passing game early in the season, but it dried up.
  6. Interesting comments. I never really focused that much on McCoy in this regard, but it was dramatic for Gore. He was the same Frank Gore we've seen for years during the first quarter of the season, and then he was done. I don't, however, how much benefit the Bills would have gotten spreading those 75 carries over 16 games.
  7. All of this. I say often that I really have very little understanding of how to build a football team. I spend my time watching what the regime in power does and ask myself whether it makes sense. I'm high on McDermott and Beane because after listening to them and watching them, I think what they're doing DOES make sense. That doesn't mean it's the only way, but while they're the guys, it's going to be done their way. As for the best way to get Allen up the learning curve, they've been very clear that their plan was that Allen would sit the first year. They couldn't stick with the plan, and as they've said, Allen had a rocky first year, but he seems to have survived it. He was better in 2019, but he had his stretches where he still looked like a rookie.
  8. I suspect you're right that it was too complex for Josh at times. But McDermott addressed that last year. When asked about dumbing down the playbook for his rookie QB, he said everyone has a job to do. Each guy is asked to do what the job is. They're not going to ask players to do something less than the job. Allen was expected to execute the entire offense last season, and he was expected to do it this season. Part of the benefit of continuity of OC and QB is that the QB can grow into the complexity. And the OC can grow into technique for making the whole playbook effective.
  9. I think the point of a complex offense, and I think this is something McDermott really believes in, is that with a complex offense you can adjust your style of play to attack any defense. A lot has been said about the Ravens game, and about how the Ravens zero blitz approach was known and the Bills weren't prepared for it. I don't know if they weren't prepared or they were prepared by couldn't execute. In any case, the point of a complex offense is that it fill your tool box with all the tools you need, regardless of what the defense is giving you. In addition, it makes it difficult for the defense to prepare for you, because they're forced to prepare for everything.
  10. I'm loving this thread. I think you're making my point. I think what you say about complex is exactly right, and that's why guys with experience in the system play beyond the time many of us think they should. Taylor, Liuget and Peko have one big thing in common. They all play the same position, the single position on the team, offense or defense, where scheme and system are least important. Plus, they're guys brought in to take 15-20 snaps a game, more if they work out, but 15-20 is all they're really hoping for when the Bills bring them in. There's no position on the offense that can accept a part time player new to the system. Gore and Spain fit EXACTLY what Beane says. Exactly. Free agency is used to fill holes, not to build the team. Morse is the only exception, I think, since Beane has been here. He isn't looking for long-term players in free agency; he's looking for guys who can be useful on the team while they fill out the team in the draft. I'm not saying the Bills won't ever bring in additions to the offense in mid-season; I'm saying that's not what Beane wants to do. And in the case of the 2019 Bills, there were no mid-season additions necessary. No one got injured. They had the linemen they had, and there was no upgrade available mid-season. There were no receivers they were going to unseat with some mid-season free agent. No running backs - Yeldon's knowledge of the system was more valuable than any running back they could have brought in. And, by the way, I like the approach to complex offense. Complex offense is what makes your team difficult to defend. Allen is learning to lead a complex offense. Youngsters are beginning to work their way into it. They need at least one more year of young talent, probably two.
  11. I think this is a good assessment. And I also appreciate Hap pointing out that the Bills did, indeed, run a lot. Both points are valid. Allen needs the experience passing to learn how to make the passing game effective. He has to fail before he succeeds. And the point about Singletary's backup is a valid criticism. In retrospect, keeping Shady and letting Gore go would have helped. Shady would give them the senior leadership they liked in Gore, but Shady would have added much more on the field. Yes, he runs with the same style as Singletary, and you'd like a change of pace, but I'll take similar styles over Gore's simple inability to do anything except run straight ahead and get stopped. And although it isn't Gunner saying this, to those who say it's been three years and the offense should be better, I'll repeat what I said earlier. It's a process. It takes time. 2019 wasn't the year they expected to be great. If a team isn't great, one side of the ball is likely to be worse than the other side. In this case it's the offense. In other case it might be the defense. Where they are isn't surprising. Disappointing to some who want faster progress, but not surprising if you've been listening to McBeane.
  12. This continues to be a great discussion. I think there's an aspect to how McDermott operates that is on display in this thread and particularly in this post. McDermott believes in the process. The process involves teaching, development, growth, growing together as a team. He believes there is great strength, an advantage to be gained, by continuity - teaching and developing the same thing, game after game, season after season. That's all at the core of what he does. He believes in continuous improvement. Now, we can come up with all kinds of arguments about why he ought to do things differently, but that's how he does things. He believes in young talent, because his system expects that players will take multiple years to grow into guys who fit into the team and make the team better. So take Duke as an example. I was one of the biggest Duke fans around here from the day the Bills signed him. But Duke's not young, and he's in his first season in the system. Foster is young and is in his second season in the system. I would guess that Foster, all season long, showed a better understanding of what the team was doing, of what McDermott and Daboll expected of him, than Duke did. Again, we can holler all we want about size, catch radius, etc., etc. but that is only one aspect of the total evaluation they're doing of every player every week. Yeldon's the same thing. I don't get Yeldon at all. I mean, the guy has some skills, but he's never flashed (at least when I've seen him) any NFL-level skill that would make him valuable. I don't know, but I would guess that McDermott sees things in him that, with time, will make him a valuable piece in the offense, on a spot basis. I don't know that - pure guess. Josh is perfect for how McDermott sees his job. A guy with talent who needs to be developed, who can grow and grow and grow. He's young, he works hard, he's committed. McDermot wants a team full of those guys. I can't tell you what they're doing is right and is going to work, although I think it is and it will. But it explains why Duke sat all year, it explains why they didn't grab a running back off some practice squad (McDermott wants no part of adding players who haven't been through OTAs and training camp. It's about the system, and bringing a guy in in mid-season it's contrary to what he wants. He wants guys for multiple years.) And so we come back to Daboll. What I've been saying is that I view Daboll in the context of how McDermott does everything. McDermott is looking for growth and development and evolution. The fact that Daboll has survived two seasons with McDermott means that Daboll buys into that notion and is working at improving the way McDermott wants. And although I can't give any evidence, I am absolutely certain that Low Interest Rate is NOT what's going on here. McDermott is about winning, not about defense. There's just no way he is not paying attention to this. I just think that his approach to the game results in gradual, steady improvement that is supposed to result in long-term excellence. Whether that is the right approach, I don't know. I do know that it makes no sense to be disappointed that a slow-and-steady approach to development hasn't yielded short-term excellence. Beane never said it straight out, but he had a press conference in 2018 when he pretty much said that 2020 was the first season he expected to see a really good team in Buffalo. They said 2018 would be worse than 2017, and it was. They said 2019 was when we'd start to see the first results of their building process, and it was. 2020 was the season he expected, if all went well, that we'd start to see a good team. And his expectation was that after that, the team would continue to grow and improve. Everybody on the team is supposed to get better, every day and every year. Every player, every coach. And every player and every coach has a road map showing what and how he's supposed to get better. Allen has one. Daboll has one. McDermott has one. That's how the process works. I think it's wrong to assume that we will see the mistakes of 2019 repeated in 2020. McDermott's assumption is, because he believes in his system, that the mistakes will be eliminated. If he didn't think Daboll could improve in that way, he would have replaced him.
  13. Actually, I don't pay much attention to personalities, so I really wasn't talking to anyone in particular. Thanks for clearing the air. Didn't mean to be a jerk. But I do think you're missing the point. McBeane were clear about the fact that they saw a three to five year process. None of us really understood what that meant, because they didn't lay it out. But we've now seen two full years of it, and it's much clearer now. They've said, and it's what they've done, that they'll build through the draft and plug holes along the way in free agency. That's what they're doing. So in free agency we get a John Brown instead of an Antonio Brown. They're taking their time acquiring talent. Now, if we're looking at a three to five year process, that means that the team shouldn't be great yet, and it isn't. If a team isn't great, one side of the ball is ahead of the other. In this case, the defense is ahead of the offense. If offense were ahead of the defense you'd say Frazier is failing. So the offense has to improve. The scheme has to improve, the playcalling has to improve, and the talent has to improve. We saw improvement from 2018 to 2019. They went from 30th in yards and points to 24 and 23 respectively. Not enough, to be sure, but it's a process and they aren't done. They haven't yet drafted a quality wide receiver, and they've taken only one o lineman high. So if Daboll is failing by McD's coaching standards, he gets fired. But if he's doing the job that he and Daboll agree needs to be done, and if he's making the progress that they have laid out in their evaluation process, then he stays, even though the offense hasn't yet done what everyone knows it needs to do to succeed. Put differently, Daboll isn't an underperforming OC just because the Bills don't have a top-10 offense. McBeane could have told you in the summer of 2018 the Bills wouldn't have a top-10 offense in 2019. They knew, because they knew they hadn't even begun acquiring (other than Allen) any of the talent they needed. They didn't have a running back they could count on in 2019, because Shady was year to year. They didn't have any receivers. And they had one, count 'em, one offensive lineman. They added two receivers - not stars but solid receivers for 2019. They got themselves a running back. They got two more linemen. That was pretty good. They aren't done. But with the cast of characters they had, whether Daboll is underperforming isn't measured by stats you and I see.
  14. That's true, if you're talking record. But the team was on a path to nowhere. Nobody, including the fans who post here, were happy with the team. There was near jubilation when Rex was run out of town. They had Tyrod Taylor at QB. The Browns had a decent record this year, but the post I was responding to said the Browns were a bad team, so what does it say if they're looking at Daboll. T One and done is not the answer. It takes more than a year to build an oline, and the Bills have spent exactly one year building it. WR was substantially upgraded in 2019 and will be again this year. What are you saying? Fire McD? Some people just aren't listening. McD and Beane have done through three years exactly what they told us or signalled us that they would do. And the team has developed a solid foundation and is building. It's what they said they would do. When the GM and coach are giving you exactly what they promised, I don't see any reason to think they aren't doing the job. If you didn't want what they promised, you shouldn't have hired them.
  15. It's not about the teams. It's always the bad teams that are looking. Good teams aren't replacing their OC. The Bills were a bad team when they hired McDermott. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. But that's no what it's about. People knew about McDermott. He was a hot item. We may not see why, but Daboll is one, also. The point is that the people in the league, the coaches and the GMs, know through the rumor mill who gets it and who doesn't. Certain names keep coming up, and that's because coaches and GMs know.
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