Virgil Posted December 8, 2019 Share Posted December 8, 2019 1 hour ago, TPS said: Something I've been thinking about and today confirms it for me. The Bill's return game isn't good enough to waste a spot dressing Roberts. I believe they'd be better off dressing Duke. Going into today’s game, we had the leagues 4th best return game 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Warcodered said: Didn't he have the 3rd most return yards going into this game? I mean he hasn't had a homerun yet but he's been consistently good. I thought we led the league actually in KR average. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not at the table Karlos Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/returns.htm Hes second in the league. This is pretty dumb 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Roberts should be benched. Activate Yeldon (at least he offers you a threat out of the backfield in the passing game) and just have Hyde back there to catch punts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/returns.htm Hes second in the league. This is pretty dumb But ... coming into this game, 41 returns (punt + kickoff) total. Not his fault that there’s only 3.5 returnable kicks/punts per game. My point here is that there’s not much value in signing pure return specialists in today’s game. The roster spot may be better used; the money certainly could have been. Notice how the Pats never have a return specialist? Just use any sure handed receiver. If Beasley were on the Pats he’d be returning punts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helpmenow Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 No roscoe parish or Keith moody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaoulDuke79 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Kiva said: Not yet... Not yet.... Live for today, for one never know what the future has in store. Enjoy each day as if it may be the last and love Andre Roberts as you would love your first born child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 2 hours ago, TPS said: Something I've been thinking about and today confirms it for me. The Bill's return game isn't good enough to waste a spot dressing Roberts. I believe they'd be better off dressing Duke. Roberts is 5th in yards and 3rd in yards per return. https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=KR&sort=kryds 30 minutes ago, njbuff said: Roberts should be benched. Activate Yeldon (at least he offers you a threat out of the backfield in the passing game) and just have Hyde back there to catch punts. https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=KR&sort=kryds 1 hour ago, 947 said: Roberts he absolutely sucked today, he no longer has the talent to be our Return specialist. He also offers nothing as a WR6, and should be inactivated on game day. I'm sure Mckenzie (or almost anybody, really) could at least do what Roberts has been doing on KOs. We could activate Duke & at least have a big target available if Daboll decides to try & use one. LOL this is so wrong. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Romes Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 He doesn’t fumble. That’s more than many can say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfield45 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 maybe we should bring NFL quality WR's here and not go into the season with an offense comprising of practice squad players 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted December 9, 2019 Author Share Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: Roberts is 5th in yards and 3rd in yards per return. https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=KR&sort=kryds https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=KR&sort=kryds LOL this is so wrong. Any idea if the average drive start on kickoffs is significantly different from the 25? Again, I"m not criticizing Roberts, I'm just not sure he provides enough value for a guy who is turning out to be a return specialist only? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianthomas Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Reminds me of a post i wrote about Roberts back on August 24th: On 8/24/2019 at 9:55 PM, brianthomas said: thats what i keep hearing & he definitely was the best in the league last year & he's a lock to make the team. But for fan board hypotheticals if it came down to him & Williams i'd pick the Duke because he gives our offense something that nobody else can. With the exception of last year, AR averages about 22 yards/return. How much would Isaiah get, 19, 20, 21? Of course its just preseason but Roberts returns havent been very memorable so far this preseason. McKenzie is a better fit for our offense imo & he's been doing the punt returns, so I'd put McKenzie in that KR role too & use the extra roster spot for something different, like a tall wr who can make the big catch in the red zone. Now if we're keeping 7 wr's than that changes & i'd keep Roberts. But we're gonna have to make some difficult decisions come cut day. Is a few yards possible extra per return worth getting rid of another player who could make a bigger impact somewhere else? Thats the decision & its gonna be a tough one this year... which is a good thing Needless to say most posters felt having an All Pro return man was more important. But on games like today, where we're in the red zone & don't have a tall receiver to throw to, you sure wish you at least had that option to throw to once & awhile. I'm not saying Duke Williams will light up the stat sheet week in week out. But his size presents another challenge to the defense & if he gets you that 1st down or TD in the back of the end zone on a 4th & 8, i'd say its worth having him on the active roster versus the extra 3 yards added onto our kickoff return average with Roberts claiming that roster spot. Allen doesn't really throw WR's open that often. Usually they have to be open & Allen fires it in there. That sounds perfect for a tall, strong WR like Duke. Yes those 3 yards extra in field position are nice, but bigger picture the return game just hasn't been that game changing for us. But getting that 1st down or TD late in the game. I'd take that in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
416BillsFan Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 I googled recency bias this thread was the first result. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
london_bills Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) Different regimes do different things. Under McD Roberts always returns, under rex and Gailey etc there were different returners. I tend to wonder what it would be like if beasley and mckenzie returned some kicks. I think roberts has been consistent though. Edited December 9, 2019 by london_bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 3 hours ago, TPS said: Something I've been thinking about and today confirms it for me. The Bill's return game isn't good enough to waste a spot dressing Roberts. I believe they'd be better off dressing Duke. He needs to stop bringing kickoffs out from out of the endzone. But I do like him as a punt returner. Very sure-handed. Enough to deserve a spot on the 46-man active roster? Maybe not in 2020, but this season I'm fine with it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick the Greek Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 4 hours ago, Kiva said: Not yet... It’s been 13 weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 5 hours ago, TPS said: Something I've been thinking about and today confirms it for me. The Bill's return game isn't good enough to waste a spot dressing Roberts. I believe they'd be better off dressing Duke. yep. and ke kept taking it out of the endzone and getting tackled before the 25. just boneheaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsbackto81 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) Of all NFL players who've played at least 11 games this season the leader in kick return average is..........Andre Roberts! 26.8 AVG He's doing his job.... Edited December 9, 2019 by billsbackto81 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Holy Wow. This thread. Roberts is second in the league in return average and is excellent at fielding punts and not allowing them to bounce or be downed in the black zone. Furthermore, the reason he doesn't get many punt returns is because teams intentionally avoid giving him returnable balls because he is a known threat. This is a terrible thread and sums up this entire day on TBD. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalonian Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 I think Roberts has been fairly effective this season. He has had several decent kickoff returns. However, blocking by the return team today was really poor and gave Roberts almost no chance to make a play. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Our roster problems: We need at least one more OT. Ford needs to either make a huge step up, or move to og because we aren't likely to keep Spain. If Ford does step up we need a new og, in which case I suppose we can keep Spain but I don't see how we will know that Ford improves until into next season. We have a total of two WRs in the roster, Miami for example has three or four and their top two are better than ours. Denver too. We need a prototype. We kinda need another pass rusher. I'm 50/50 on this one, but a clowney or someone like that would super charge our d We need another Corner. We need another rb who can hurt a d. Lots of guys drafted this year and prolly next will do this. Last, and not least, the bottom 12 or so guys on our roster, and I think 7 or 8 of them are on O, are scrubs and we need to upgrade. This will help special teams a ton, and honestly might be the biggest difference between us and Baltimore. We won zero one on ones in special teams and our punter sucks too. If we added yards to our seven returns or punted better we prolly win the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 11 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said: Andre has been a surprising disappointment. He hasn't busted 1 good kickoff or punt return all season. But our punt and kickoff block coverage might be the worst in the league. Farwell is actually worse than Crossman. which games have you been watching 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakin Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Roberts doesn’t make mistakes. No muffs. That’s why he’s there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMF2006 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 12 hours ago, TPS said: Something I've been thinking about and today confirms it for me. The Bill's return game isn't good enough to waste a spot dressing Roberts. I believe they'd be better off dressing Duke. How many times has he fumbled? He gives us certainty back there and if he doesn't ever run it out of the EZ we will never hit a big play. Keep on keeping on Andre I love what you do for the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted December 9, 2019 Author Share Posted December 9, 2019 The issue isn't about Roberts himself, it's the trade off on the decision for the 46. Roberts is strictly a return man. In 11 games he has 2 catches for 13 yards. He is in the top 4 in kickoff return average; however, I'm not certain he has given the Bills a significantly different starting position than not returning the kick? One alternative is dressing Duke to provide a big sure-handed WR. He has 6 catches (on 7 targets) in 3 games and a game-winning TD. Yes, he doesn't have the speed or the separation, but his separation is his size, and his stats show he's more valuable on O than Roberts. So, In an ideal world, the Bills would have both on the 46, but they have to make a choice. Some of you may think it's a clear choice; I don't, which was the point of my post. Btw, This Is also the the reason there's a Duke thread going again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLTbills Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 The Bills are fourth in the NFL in kickoff return average. If I'm not mistaken, they were #1 going in to the Baltimore game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian3488 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Bring back Marcus thigpen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 21 minutes ago, TPS said: The issue isn't about Roberts himself, it's the trade off on the decision for the 46. Roberts is strictly a return man. In 11 games he has 2 catches for 13 yards. He is in the top 4 in kickoff return average; however, I'm not certain he has given the Bills a significantly different starting position than not returning the kick? One alternative is dressing Duke to provide a big sure-handed WR. He has 6 catches (on 7 targets) in 3 games and a game-winning TD. Yes, he doesn't have the speed or the separation, but his separation is his size, and his stats show he's more valuable on O than Roberts. So, In an ideal world, the Bills would have both on the 46, but they have to make a choice. Some of you may think it's a clear choice; I don't, which was the point of my post. Btw, This Is also the the reason there's a Duke thread going again. There is no trade off. Roberts is excellent on special teams and if you replace him with McKenzie - the issue is the fumbles go way up. Ask Carolina about allowing Ray Ray to field punts. The position Andre plays is typical of how most teams build. You have a core special teams guys that handles kickoff and punts and does not turn the ball over - just like you have a dedicated kicker, punter, and snapper. Any production he gives us on offense is a plus. Is Duke a better WR - yep, but he can not do the things that Andre does - so that is not the replacement that would occur. It would be sitting WR speed (McKenzie or Foster) for size. The Bills are also running more 11 personnel with 3 WRs - so I could see a trade off of a TE for a WR at some point, but to start a thread about Roberts being useless is just crazy. Plus if your big issue is not having Duke on the active roster - then post that in the Duke thread. Don’t blame Roberts - that is still one of the top returners in the NFL - for keeping Duke on the bench. It should be an easy and clear choice of Roberts over Duke - it is not even close. There are many other positions to sit to activate Williams if they think he will be a difference maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hebert19 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 This. He cost us field position multiple times yesterday. Duke must have banged someone's wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokinES3 Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 His numbers are among the best in the NFL. This is just a bitchfest about him not breaking one. His instincts and judgement, knowing when to call for a FC and when to block etc. He doesn't fumble. 80% of those returns for 9-15 yards w 3 guys bearing down on him anyone else fair catches. He's been worth every penny in my opinion. I've been saying all season how nice it is to have an all-pro return guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted December 9, 2019 Author Share Posted December 9, 2019 46 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: There is no trade off. Roberts is excellent on special teams and if you replace him with McKenzie - the issue is the fumbles go way up. Ask Carolina about allowing Ray Ray to field punts. The position Andre plays is typical of how most teams build. You have a core special teams guys that handles kickoff and punts and does not turn the ball over - just like you have a dedicated kicker, punter, and snapper. Any production he gives us on offense is a plus. Is Duke a better WR - yep, but he can not do the things that Andre does - so that is not the replacement that would occur. It would be sitting WR speed (McKenzie or Foster) for size. The Bills are also running more 11 personnel with 3 WRs - so I could see a trade off of a TE for a WR at some point, but to start a thread about Roberts being useless is just crazy. Plus if your big issue is not having Duke on the active roster - then post that in the Duke thread. Don’t blame Roberts - that is still one of the top returners in the NFL - for keeping Duke on the bench. It should be an easy and clear choice of Roberts over Duke - it is not even close. There are many other positions to sit to activate Williams if they think he will be a difference maker. I would agree with your take, for the most part. If you read my post as blaming Roberts, then you've misinterpreted it. His contribution has been on ST, not offense, and that is the trade-off I'm looking at--giving up something on ST to get more on O. However, where I'm in agreement is your point that it may be Foster where the real decision lies? 9 minutes ago, SmokinES3 said: His numbers are among the best in the NFL. This is just a bitchfest about him not breaking one. His instincts and judgement, knowing when to call for a FC and when to block etc. He doesn't fumble. 80% of those returns for 9-15 yards w 3 guys bearing down on him anyone else fair catches. He's been worth every penny in my opinion. I've been saying all season how nice it is to have an all-pro return guy. It's not a bitchfest. The issue is the Bills need a big-bodied WR, and if they want one on the 46, then they have a decision to make. I think @Rochesterfan probably has the right take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Boy Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 15 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said: Andre has been a surprising disappointment. He hasn't busted 1 good kickoff or punt return all season. But our punt and kickoff block coverage might be the worst in the league. Farwell is actually worse than Crossman. I asked this in another thread. WHY don’t we block the outside gunners when we are receiving a punt???? The other teams outside guys are given a free release to the inside. It has to be by design because our guys don’t even try to engage them or bracket them to the outside. Every single punt Roberts is back there catching it with both outside coverage guys on him as he signals the fair catch. WTF???? Anybody???? Thoughts???? 15 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said: Roberts can't do much when the Ravens gunners are running down the field freely, not even slowed down by the Bills. He had no chance on the PR's. This is every game, all season long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokinES3 Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 On 12/9/2019 at 8:34 AM, TPS said: I would agree with your take, for the most part. If you read my post as blaming Roberts, then you've misinterpreted it. His contribution has been on ST, not offense, and that is the trade-off I'm looking at--giving up something on ST to get more on O. However, where I'm in agreement is your point that it may be Foster where the real decision lies? It's not a bitchfest. The issue is the Bills need a big-bodied WR, and if they want one on the 46, then they have a decision to make. I think @Rochesterfan probably has the right take. You won't get any pushback from me on the need for a 6'4" #1 receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 (edited) https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=KR He's 5th in the league in kickoff return yards. He's 3rd in the league in average yards/kickoff return. Yep. He sucks balls. Edited December 12, 2019 by Gugny 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Gugny said: https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=KR He's 5th in the league in kickoff return yards. He's 3rd in the league in average yards/kickoff return. Yep. He sucks balls. I guess since he hasn't had a return for a touchdown he sucks? Edited December 12, 2019 by DaBillsFanSince1973 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 On 12/8/2019 at 5:50 PM, Binghamton Beast said: The Ravens have one of the best ST units in the league. Roberts has been a very good returner for us. Not a waste of a spot....at all. Kick & Punt Returns * Selected to Pro Bowl, + First-Team All-Pro Kick & Punt Returns Table Games Punt Returns Kick Returns Rk Player Tm Age Pos G GS Ret Yds TD Lng Y/R Rt Yds TD Lng Y/Rt APYd 1 Deonte Harris NOR 22 11 0 27 269 1 53 10.0 20 494 0 51 24.7 804 2 Richie James SFO 24 wr 13 1 31 258 0 32 8.3 16 313 0 27 19.6 728 3 Andre Roberts BUF 31 11 0 26 194 0 22 7.5 21 562 0 66 26.8 776 4 Kenjon Barner ATL 29 11 0 26 225 1 78 8.7 10 276 0 47 27.6 547 5 Trevor Davis 2TM 26 11 4 16 112 0 32 7.0 19 411 0 52 21.6 707 6 Mecole Hardman KAN 21 wr 13 4 11 138 0 36 12.5 22 510 0 34 23.2 1163 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watkins90 Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 On 12/8/2019 at 4:45 PM, Warcodered said: Didn't he have the 3rd most return yards going into this game? I mean he hasn't had a homerun yet but he's been consistently good. See, people just think if he doesn't have punt and kick returns for a TD, then he is worthless. He is third in kick-off return average at 26 yards per return. He averages 7 yards per return and most importantly, hasn't turned the ball over, which was a big issue last year. We don't need him to break big returns every time. We just need him to catch teh ball and make good decisions so we aren't in terrible field position. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codyny13 Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 This guy catches punts and kickoffs effortlessly. Usually with his hands like someone is flicking him the ball from 5 feet away. I have no worries about this guy fumbling the ball or not doing what he’s supposed to back there, and that goes entirely unnoticed by the majority of fans. Our blocking has not been good enough, but I think up until recently, and maybe still, we are leading the league in kickoff return average. He’s also one of the only guys in the league that has the green light to take the ball out of the end zone consistently because of his big play ability, that sometimes leads to getting tackled at the 20. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreboding Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 How many fumbles have we seen? Missed catches? See my point? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, Watkins90 said: See, people just think if he doesn't have punt and kick returns for a TD, then he is worthless. He is third in kick-off return average at 26 yards per return. He averages 7 yards per return and most importantly, hasn't turned the ball over, which was a big issue last year. We don't need him to break big returns every time. We just need him to catch teh ball and make good decisions so we aren't in terrible field position. It's the same way many view the QB position. A Bills QB is either Tom Brady in his prime, or he's Ryan Leaf. Because Andre Roberts isn't Devin Hester, he has to be terrible in some people's eyes. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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