The Patrick Mahomes Super Bowl Debate

[JohnNord]

After weeks of hearing how Patrick Mahomes is the “Michael Jordan” of the NFL, some in the media are now going out of their way to prop up his performance in the Super Bowl - despite the bad numbers and meager scoring output.

 

 

Yet earlier today, one of the most respect film analysts Gregg Cosell, actually used film study to show that Mahomes didn’t play his best game.  In the full podcast Tucker noted that so many wanted to blame the OL without acknowledging that Mahomes wasn’t as sharp as he’s been in the past.  

 

 

My opinion, is that while Mahomes made some incredible plays it was still probably his worst game as a pro.  I wouldn’t say he was the reason he lost, but you can add him to the long list of Chiefs who didn’t deliver.  
 

I do feel that the media is contorting to try to prop him up.  I find that kind of bizarre.  The crazy thing is that against the Bills everyone said “oh look how he’s moving he’s showing NO effects from turf toe.”  Then when he was losing they said “that turf toe is really affecting his throws tonight.”

 

The Chiefs fanbase is especially banging this drum hard.   
 

Where do you fall on this debate and do you think there’s a Pro-Mahomes narrative some are trying to push?

[Johnnycage46]

I would tend to trust Cosell over Mina Kimes, personally.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Michael Jordan didn't even make it to the NBA finals until his 7th year...........he had more than a few fails in the lead up........and never won a championship when he didn't have the healthier and more talented team.

 

That's not to detract from Jordan but the notion that he was infallible is far from correct.    2 SB appearances and 3 title games in 3 years as a starting QB in the NFL is pretty amazing.

[Warcodered]

5 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said:

I would tend to trust Cosell over Mina Kimes, personally.

Mina Kimes...legends say if you listen closely you can still hear the echoes of her shriek when the Bills drafted Josh Allen on the wind.

[4_kidd_4]

I read somewhere that Michael Jordan is the Michael Jordan of Michael Jordans.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Mahommes was hurt and it affected his movement in the pocket.   He played ok just not super-human. The line was the main issue pure and simple. I will add Kelce had three drops in the SB in a season where he had only 1 in 16 games.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Where do you fall on this debate and do you think there’s a Pro-Mahomes narrative some are trying to push?

 

I go with My Quarterback, Josh Allen.  After the playoff loss to the Texans, the narrative "Josh Allen Melted Down" emerged.  Some renegades pointed out that without some bad play from other sections of the team, maybe the Bills don't cede 19 unanswered points starting in the 3Q.

 

Josh Allen said "teams usually go the way their QB goes and I didn't play well enough"

 

Is it fair to say the loss wasn't all on Patrick Mahomes?  Absolutely.  There were a lot of things wrong including a jailbreak OL and some puzzling lack of adjustments.

Is it fair to say like Geoff Schwartz does "The Chiefs offense had failures on Sunday against the Bucs but it wasn’t because of Patrick Mahomes."?

 

Nopenope.  Teams usually go the way their QB goes and he didn't play well enough.

[Mat68]

Allen played better vs Kc than Mahomes played in the Superbowl.  Every great throw Mahomes made after running around was in triple coverage through a defenders hands, slightly tipping the ball and resulting in the miss play of the WR.  It is overblown.  Allen gets killed for the same thing Mahomes gets praise for.

 

[Rico]

Pictures speak louder than words.

[Maybe Someday]

4 minutes ago, Rico said:

Pictures speak louder than words.

Better be careful posting this...you might have an angry thin skinned QB Producer coming after you. 

[MJS]

Maybe he didn't play his best game, but he certainly was not the reason the offense struggled. Anyone claiming that is correct.

 

But there were a number of throws from Mahomes that had me saying "that wasn't a great throw" and a few times he bailed from the pocket needlessly, or retreated backwards when he should have stepped up in the pocket.

 

And there were a number if WOW plays he made too.

 

But certainly, he did not get enough help and his failings were largely a result of the failings of everyone else around him, because the constant pressure got in his head.

[reddogblitz]

It was a team loss.  All are equally responsible.

[JGMcD2]

17 minutes ago, MJS said:

Maybe he didn't play his best game, but he certainly was not the reason the offense struggled. Anyone claiming that is correct.

 

But there were a number of throws from Mahomes that had me saying "that wasn't a great throw" and a few times he bailed from the pocket needlessly, or retreated backwards when he should have stepped up in the pocket.

 

And there were a number if WOW plays he made too.

 

But certainly, he did not get enough help and his failings were largely a result of the failings of everyone else around him, because the constant pressure got in his head.

I agree with all of this. 
 

I just find the distortion of the events by the media funny depending on the player.
 

You mean to tell me that if the line sucks and your skill players don’t make plays, the QB isn’t going to look as good as he would when the line blocks and your skill players make plays? color me surprised. 
 

Someone should’ve told that to the media when Josh was getting chased around his first two years in the league with little blocking and his best weapons were Robert Foster and John Brown. Sure, he made some bonehead plays, but it was never always all on him. 

[Success]

It was a bad game for him, by any standard. But in that bad game, he had 2-3 plays that seemed superhuman - the kind of plays that almost no one else can make.

 

I still wonder about a couple of those throws.  Did he really aim them to hit the guy in the helmet? Even he probably only makes those 1 out of 10x.

 

[Motorin']

39 minutes ago, Rico said:

Pictures speak louder than words.

 

That was immediately after he made the diving 30 yard throw on 4th down that hit his RB in the face only to go incomplete. 

 

It was probably his worst day as a pro, but you can't knock his effort. 

[Zerovoltz]

I think Mahomes didn't play one of his better games....he, along with the offense as a whole....kept trying to go downfield....when the underneath was there for the taking..runs were there to be had.

 

I've said before....that line you saw in the Super Bowl...was bad...it was the worst line KC has fielded since Mahomes has been QB...but I'd tell you that because KC has won with Mahoems, playing with bad lines before....they clearly thought this wasn't different than those times....but it was...and they didn't adjust....at all..not even at halftime.  They were SURE they could keep running our deep route offense, because even with line problems...Mahomes just runs around and finds someone anyhow.....that works if he had half way stay moving WHILE STILL looking downfield....there is a big difference when the rush is inisde and out and you can't do it.  Mahomes also, when the line is playing bad.....start to assume every play it will be bad and not step up into the pocket....agian,  things that they've gotten away with this whole time....

 

......the team, coaches...Mahomes himself....didn't want to admit they were the team that had to adapt to someone else....we've been teh team that you had to adapt to.  Arrogance.

 

This game doens't change who Mahomes is or what he can do, or what he will continue to do.  His overall body of work speaks plenty for his abilities...he needs niether propped up, nor knocked down for Sunday.  KC needs to understand that Mahomes is mortal...football.....beleive it or not....is still a team game....I think they will understand that lesson going forward and Mahomes is going to still be the same Mahomes, whoever you think that is.

[HappyDays]

I really do think Mahomes and Allen are very similar QBs right now, with the same strengths and flaws. Both failed to take available check down options in their playoff losses. Both tend to bail from the pocket a little early. Neither was the primary reason their teams lost but they weren't without blame. I think Allen did even better at getting the offense back into the game against the Chiefs, the problem is the defense was so bad it didn't matter. Mahomes couldn't get them into the endzone even in garbage time. Poor pass protection was obviously the bigger culprit in both losses.

Edited February 11, 2021 by HappyDays

[TheBrownBear]

He wasn't good in the Super Bowl, but he was basically GOAT levels in the three years leading up to that game.  I'm pretty sure that's why the media is giving him a bit of a pass.  And the fact that his line sucked and his receivers did very little to help him.

15 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I really do think Mahomes and Allen are very similar QBs right now, with the same strengths and flaws. Both failed to take available check down options in their playoff losses. Both tend to bail from the pocket a little early. Neither was the primary reason their teams lost but they weren't without blame. I think Allen did even better at getting the offense back into the game against the Chiefs, the problem is the defense was so bad it didn't matter. Mahomes couldn't get them into the endzone even in garbage time. Poor pass protection was obviously the bigger culprit in both losses.

 

Josh is where Mahomes was two years ago.   He's the better athlete, but Mahomes still has a slight edge in the poise and accuracy department.  Though Josh is closing ground quick.

[Chicken Boo]

What I don't understand is why they didn't use their RBs more, like they did with Damien Williams all of last post season?

 

He's still the best RB on the roster, btw.

[GunnerBill]

I think Mahomes played poorly. Yes his protection sucked. Yes his weapons did not play well but he played poorly. One of the things that definitely showed up the 2nd half of this year, and I talked about this before the AFCCG is Mahomes has at times got outside the structure of the offense too much. I think both in the Miami game and the New Orleans game that they won it showed up. Too much trying to force the big play rather than take the play that is there. He was great in the AFCCG but that flaw resurfaced when things went wrong in the Superbowl. He has had so much success playing back yard football that I think at times he is a bit addicted to it. Reid and Beineimy needs to remind him that often simplicity is beauty. There were chances to move the ball on Sunday that he didn't take and it was a major contributor to the loss.

[NewEra]

His OL sucked.  The Tampa pass rush was as fierce as I’ve seen in any game all season.  In years maybe.  Mahomes, didn’t take what was given and tried to do too much.  
 

If the refs called the game like they did vs us, those penalties in the 2nd quarter wouldn’t have existed and the bucs would’ve had would’ve had 7-10 points instead of 21 at the half.  Hill and Williams taking the ball off their face masks didn’t help.  Kelce with 3 drops.  
 

There were many mistakes and elements of poor play that made it a blowout.  I think people are pointing that out.  The loss wasn’t on Mahomes imo.  Regardless of how well he did or didn’t play, his teammates and coaches (and refs) were even worse. 

More Mahomes threads please!!

Edited February 12, 2021 by NewEra

[TBBills]

This game was so last week... Right now everyone is 0-0 and Free Agency gonna start.

[Iiiiiiiiive Got a Feeeelin]

Pundits will defend him because like it or not he is (part of) the future of the nfl and its obvious he's the new golden boy.  And it took me until the Bills got good and the heads actually started talking about us that i realized they are mostly garbage just trying to maintain popular talking points or just say off the wall things to get reactions (ie: Nick Wright).  That being said, no i dont think he lost them that game but yeah he was definitely a factor.  last point: the turf toe thing reminded me of the Bills/Chiefs reg season game when Josh had a rocky start Troy was all over how terrible his accuracy is no mention of the wind and rain, as soon as Mahomes fires one incomplete, its the weather.  This is just the future we are in store for and we may all learn to really dislike the Chiefs very soon, for those who dont already that is.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Iiiiiiiiive Got a Feeeelin
forgot a couple crucial words

[Like A Mofo]

Bottom Line: If Josh Allen played in the SB and had the same OL out, very few of these talking heads would say 'go get your eyes checked' if you think Allen was one of the Top 10 reasons that Buffalo lost the SB.

 

Lots of not all would point to Allen and his inaccuracy talk pre draft and how 'they knew deep down' that is what he would be.

 

Most know exactly why this is happening.

 

[Michael1962]

I find  Mina Kime's voice really annoying.  Kind of like someone strangling a cat.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Iiiiiiiiive Got a Feeeelin said:

Pundits will defend him because like it or not he is (part of) the future of the nfl and its obvious he's the new golden boy.  And it took me until the Bills got good and the heads actually started talking about us that i realized they are mostly garbage just trying to maintain popular talking points or just say off the wall things to get reactions (ie: Nick Wright).  That being said, no i dont think he lost them that game but yeah he was definitely a factor.  last point: the turf toe thing reminded me of the Bills/Chiefs reg season game when Josh had a rocky start Troy was all over how terrible his accuracy is no mention of the wind and rain, as soon as Mahomes fires one incomplete, its the weather.  This is just the future we are in store for and we may all learn to really dislike the Chiefs very soon, for those who dont already that is.

 

And of course Aikman seemed oblivious to the fact that Allen was wearing a special harness that game because of the shoulder injury he suffered two weeks earlier.

 

 

 

 

[BruceVilanch]

[Southern Bills Fan]

While QB is the most important position in sports, you win as a team and you lose as a team. If your OLine plays poorly you’re not going anywhere no matter how good your QB is. 

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

While QB is the most important position in sports, you win as a team and you lose as a team. If your OLine plays poorly you’re not going anywhere no matter how good your QB is. 

 

Agree with that. I have said it constantly over the years..... there are not many plays in any offensive playbook that you can run successfully when your oline can't execute. 

 

The book on beating Kansas City is out. Both Las Vegas and Tampa pressured Mahomes on over 50% of his dropbacks - and did it while barely blitzing. That is the magic number. You have to be able to pressure them half the time that Mahomes drops back to pass. If you do that he starts going for the kill shot too often when he is kept clean and you can get them off the field. That is, of course, easier said than done!

Edited February 12, 2021 by GunnerBill

[JMF2006]

If you think this is bad it would have been nauseating if he had won  

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

The biggest take-away is that the Chiefs are not this infallible team most of us thought they were. And if we consider the big picture, they will likely only be more fallible in the coming years. The Chiefs team of the last three years will very likely go down as one of the more talented teams Mahomes will ever have played with for his career. And that's on both sides of the ball. It is hard to envision the talent around Mahomes getting better than what he has had around him thus far. Even matching the talent level will be an uphill task for the GM. 

 

Mahomes will be fine in the long run. But I would expect him to have to really work for it more often in the common years like we saw in this past Super Bowl.

[No_Matter_What]

18 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

The biggest take-away is that the Chiefs are not this infallible team most of us thought they were. And if we consider the big picture, they will likely only be more fallible in the coming years. The Chiefs team of the last three years will very likely go down as one of the more talented teams Mahomes will ever have played with for his career. And that's on both sides of the ball. It is hard to envision the talent around Mahomes getting better than what he has had around him thus far. Even matching the talent level will be an uphill task for the GM. 

 

Mahomes will be fine in the long run. But I would expect him to have to really work for it more often in the common years like we saw in this past Super Bowl.

 

I fully agree with this. The Chiefs are still great, but the difference between them and Bills (or anybody else, for that matter), is not as big as it seemed from AFCCG. We were good matchup for them and we had bad gameplan. It is not like that they were playing close games during season since they were bored, and suddenly turned on playoff mode vs us. We just were not ready.

 

There are still many people I know talking about how good Mahomes is and how he can win 5 rings or more (I already have a bet about this lol). I don't see it. I think they don't win next year and then suddenly people will need to realize that after 5 years in the league he has exactly one ring, no matter how good he is.

 

Oh and I rewatched SB. Yes Oline sucked, but Mahomes didn't play well too. He had worst pocket movement I've ever seen from him. He stepped into pressure couple of times, he failed to take checkdowns when they were clearly best options (or took them late), he turned into wrong direction against pressure couple of times (2-3 times he just turned directly into the rusher). He had also couple of overthrows and got finally caught with his INT-worthy throws. He was incredible sometimes, and still very good overall, but definitely not great. I am pretty sure that his injury is partly to blame though.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

 

I fully agree with this. The Chiefs are still great, but the difference between them and Bills (or anybody else, for that matter), is not as big as it seemed from AFCCG. We were good matchup for them and we had bad gameplan. It is not like that they were playing close games during season since they were bored, and suddenly turned on playoff mode vs us. We just were not ready.

 

I actually think they were a bit bored in the final weeks of the season. They just played a bit half assed. They were brilliant against Cleveland until Mahomes went out and then brilliant against the Bills too before sucking in the Superbowl. And I think us against them is much more matchup than our gameplan. The teams who beat KC are good at things the Bills are not great at - edge pressure and running the ball. You can't suddenly transform yourself from the team you have been all year just for 1 gameplan to play Kansas City. That is why it is a tricky conundrum for the Bills. I think they will continue to be a tough matchup for us. We need to try and get better in the areas where we know they have a weakness but equally we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We are 25-11 over the past two seasons. Would be crazy to rip up the whole script. That said if someone else wants to knock KC out of the playoffs for us next season so that we are playing anyone else in the AFCCG then you won't find me complaining  

[TheFunPolice]

As bad as the game and score ended up being, it should have been 10-6 at halftime, not 21-6, if not for things that were almost 100% in KC's control. 

 

If KC lines up onside for the FG that Tampa made to go up 10-6 (sound familiar?) it never gets to 14-6. 

 

If Reid doesn't burn time outs to encourage Brady to just chuck it deep and get bailed out by PI flags for a free TD right before half, it stays 10-6. Without KC taking those time outs, Tampa probably runs out the clock, hoping not to give it back to Mahomes with timeouts before the half. 

 

Maybe if it's just 10-6, where TB has thrown the kitchen sink at you but you're still one Tyreek Hill spring from taking the lead.

 

Either way, as much as Tampa physically dominated the game, it really SHOULD have been 10-6 Tampa at the half with KC coming out to start the 3rd with the ball and a chance to take the lead. Totally different ballgame maybe. 

 

In past years, these "what ifs" would grate on me, because I would want someone else other than Brady to be stacking up accolades, especially since it didn't matter to the Bills (I'm talking about the 20 years of nothing that were our existence). 

 

Now it doesn't matter. NE didn't win, and the Chiefs are in the way of our team! 

 

Also, I've said it before but it bears repeating here: plenty of other "Jordans" never got back to the big game after early success. Just ask Rodgers or Wilson about that. 

 

 

 

 

[Brennan Huff]

This shouldn’t even be a debate. Even as he was being chased all over the field, Mahomes was throwing freaking lasers. The combination of a depleted offensive line and a great Tampa pass rush was the difference of the game. I’m putting zero blame on Mahomes 

[No_Matter_What]

11 minutes ago, Brennan Huff said:

This shouldn’t even be a debate. Even as he was being chased all over the field, Mahomes was throwing freaking lasers. The combination of a depleted offensive line and a great Tampa pass rush was the difference of the game. I’m putting zero blame on Mahomes 

Well then go and watch again. He was throwing some freaking lasers and then he was also throwing some innacurate balls. He also had pretty bad pocket movement quite often. I blame this mostly on his injury, but still. And he while he was chased at times, it wasn't purely on OLine and it wasn't that bad. There were some busted screen plays for example.

[Brennan Huff]

17 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

Well then go and watch again. He was throwing some freaking lasers and then he was also throwing some innacurate balls. He also had pretty bad pocket movement quite often. I blame this mostly on his injury, but still. And he while he was chased at times, it wasn't purely on OLine and it wasn't that bad. There were some busted screen plays for example.

“Chased at times”. Lol

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chiefswire.usatoday.com/2021/02/07/kansas-city-chiefs-patrick-mahomes-super-bowl-lv-pressures-most-in-nfl-history/amp/

 

Yeah there were some busted plays. A couple. That fact is he was pressured more than any other QB in the history of the Super Bowl

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

17 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Michael Jordan didn't even make it to the NBA finals until his 7th year...........he had more than a few fails in the lead up........and never won a championship when he didn't have the healthier and more talented team.

 

That's not to detract from Jordan but the notion that he was infallible is far from correct.    2 SB appearances and 3 title games in 3 years as a starting QB in the NFL is pretty amazing.

I dont mean to take away from mahomes but its pretty rare a first or second year qb gets dropped into a lineup who's already in their super bowl window...im not sure he deserves all the credit for their super bowl appearances 

6 minutes ago, Brennan Huff said:

“Chased at times”. Lol

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chiefswire.usatoday.com/2021/02/07/kansas-city-chiefs-patrick-mahomes-super-bowl-lv-pressures-most-in-nfl-history/amp/

 

Yeah there were some busted plays. A couple. That fact is he was pressured more than any other QB in the history of the Super Bowl

 

 

That is a fact for sure but its tough to tell how much of that pressure was avoidable by looking to shorter routes/check downs.  Yea his offensive line played bad but if you keep taking 30 step drops and getting sacked trying to throw bombs all over the field thats definitely on you too lol

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

51 minutes ago, Brennan Huff said:

This shouldn’t even be a debate. Even as he was being chased all over the field, Mahomes was throwing freaking lasers. The combination of a depleted offensive line and a great Tampa pass rush was the difference of the game. I’m putting zero blame on Mahomes 

When did we start giving qbs credit for incomplete passes lol I have honestly never seen anything like this...yea he lobbed up some on target-ish passes that were frequently tipped by bucs defenders or his receivers took shots or gave up on the play because they didn't think they were getting the ball.  When the game mattered every completed pass I can remember was to a comically wide open travis kelce...mahomes did what we all accuse josh allen of and he did it the entire game start to finish...likely because he's never been in that situation before 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Trekking]

He was scrambling all game and receivers dropping hero passes that each would’ve transformed the game throughout.  He’s good no doubt. Rest of team are dirty and they got what they deserved. Buccs defense is a menace. The real sad story is Brady stealing the shine from a defense that could’ve taken half the QBs in the league to the title.