The Bills have a Tre White problem

[transient]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I feel everyone is different. It’s possible to return after 8 months. Von is a different animal also. But I am definitely worried about him returning at all. That contract is such a disaster. We lost cap space and the player. Very difficult injury to absorb.

In Von's case, we just proved we don't need him in the regular season, we need him in the playoffs. IMO, let him rehab the whole first 3/4 of the season, and then round him into shape for the playoff stretch run. Less chance of getting him injured again and he'll be fresh when we need him most. It will give a new DC (hopefully) time to iron out the kinks in the defense without him just in time to add a pass rushing weapon when we need it most.

[PrimeTime101]

Scheme put Tre White 7-8 yards away from the WR'S while the WR's were catching the ball in that same zone. NOW. When trey was a step or 2 behind in a couple of games ago, I would agree. but not now

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

39 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

 

Mac Jones did whatever he wanted with our CBs.  We played a 3rd string QB, and then Burrow did whatever he wanted with our CBs.

 

 

What are you going on about? Mac Jones had 195 yards and 1 TD in the 1st meeting, 2nd meeting Mac Jones threw for 243 yards 3 TD and 3 INT (Tre White had an INT in this game) . If you're going to trash someone at least do a little homework first.

[May Day 10]

I had an ACL reconstruction and went through the whole gammit.

 

 

IMO, CB would be by far the worst/hardest position in sports to return to.  Just the speed you need to have as well as cutting around.  Not just cutting, but reacting to others' movements.  At least a WR, RB, etc could compensate if they don't totally 'trust' their knee as they are the ones typically dictating/knowing where they go.

 

For me, it was about 18 months until the thing was out of my head, there was no 'sensation' in my knee, and I was as I was prior to the injury.  The mental aspect was very tough.

 

 

I would bet that White (as long as mentally he is all-in after his injury and the Hamlin situation) will be 100% by training camp.

[BillsShredder83]

56 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

The whole Tre White situation to start the year was strange at first, but then you seen him get on the field, and you realized why he wasn't playing.  The guy was not very good this year at all.  Some will blame the injury, but how many games you going to give a guy till he is back to playing up to his very large payday?

 

I think White will never be what he was.  He looked old out there, even after just playing 5 or 6 games this year.  I also think his playing style limits the entire defense on the type of defense we can play.  He does not excel in press man and needs to play off guys.  I personally think this team needs to play more press man.  Tough to transition to that when your "number 1" CB and 16 million dollar man can't play it at a top level.

 

Problem with White is, you can't get out of his contract.  His dead cap is higher than if he is on the team.

 

The only option I really see, is if Taron Johnson takes over for Poyer at safety.  Tre moves to nickel corner where he will be less exposed on an island, and you bring in another press man outside CB to pair with Elam.  Elam's strength is press man and it was really head scratching you drafted him and then played him in a zone.

 

 

Coming off acl surgery is how u want to judge the guy, knowing whats been apparent in the league about this injury.

 

You want to then move a top NCB in the league to a new position, and move a top cb in the league to a new position, where who fills in outside? Dane jackson?

 

This is brilliant, wake up Beane!!

[H2o]

13 minutes ago, The Avenger said:

I'm afraid this does not bode well for Von Miller - he's 6 years older than Tre and I question how much he'll be back next season and if he'll ever get back to where he was pre-injury.

White's injury was more extensive than Miller. They didn't even know Von's was torn until they went in to clean up some cartilage and found out. White also plays CB, a much more demanding position on your knees. White apparently had some mental issues the first couple of months after the surgery as well. It was his first major injury of any kind. He said he was locked in a basement and basically had to be dragged out. Von's already out on his own and rehabbing to get back. He attacks things differently. I do think Von could miss the month of September, possibly even October, but I bet he gets in at least 8-9 games and is good to go once he gets back on the field. 

[gobills404]

27 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

That’s from December 29th, doesn’t include the Cincy torching before game was cancelled.  The Dolphins and Bengals gameplan was to target him.  There was no playing with fire.  He was bad. 

That must be why Chase and Higgins both went below their season averages in catches and yards. Sorry but none of the numbers agree with you.

Edited January 26, 2023 by gobills404

[Logic]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Bills don’t have a Tre problem (at least not yet), they have a problem with inaccurate expectations on Tre from fans this past season.  
 

This line pretty much sums up. So correct that I felt the need to re-post it here instead of trying to add anything.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

27 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

 

Milano and Edmunds caught two of the three INTs.

 

White's INT was Mac Jones giving him a gift.  Tre was playing way off and the ball sailed.  

 

Yeah INT's to Linebackers don't count....we don't drop them in coverage or anything.  It also wasn't a sailed ball lol.  It was a one on one fade that White played well and intercepted it.

 

I find it amazing that Mac Jones could do whatever he wanted against our DB's but then decided to sail a ball to get picked off.  Why would he do that?

[Sestak4ever]

As many have said this injury takes time to fully heal and regain your speed and form. Tre is a dog, extremely smart and he leaves everything on the field. He will be fine next season. There are a lot more parts of him other than the physical game that are difficult to replace.

[Your Brown Eye]

It looked like he was a half a step faster by the end of the year than when he first came back, the question is though, is the half a step all that we will see?

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, gobills404 said:

“Not very good” by Tre White standards is still better than the vast majority of starting CBs.

 

This should include the penalties too. It also doesn't include the Cincy game, where he was being lit up like an Xmas tree. I know the game didn't count, but his performance was not good. 

31 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

That must be why Chase and Higgins both went below their season averages in catches and yards. Sorry but none of the numbers agree with you.

The reason they were below their average was because they got off to such a big lead and realized they could matriculate down the field at a more leisurely pace on almost every possession. That game was the opposite of a shootout. It was a curb-stomping in which the situation dictated ball control/long drives to simply end the game. Plus the Bills' defense had no answers.

[BADOLBILZ]

38 minutes ago, H2o said:

White's injury was more extensive than Miller. They didn't even know Von's was torn until they went in to clean up some cartilage and found out. White also plays CB, a much more demanding position on your knees. White apparently had some mental issues the first couple of months after the surgery as well. It was his first major injury of any kind. He said he was locked in a basement and basically had to be dragged out. Von's already out on his own and rehabbing to get back. He attacks things differently. I do think Von could miss the month of September, possibly even October, but I bet he gets in at least 8-9 games and is good to go once he gets back on the field. 

 

 

Yeah I suspect Von Miller will be back early next season........and the reality that most athletes return faster than Tre did will be restored as a norm in the mindset of most Bills fans.    While Beane fluffed Tre's rehab to the media DURING the comeback........I think the implication after the fact...."Von's been thru this before"....... is that they think White could have handled it better.    I didn't see White's logic in putting on a bunch of muscle in his upper body to carry around on a surgically repaired knee.  When you play a speed and quickness position you need to shed weight as you age to keep that.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Back2Buff said:

 

Milano and Edmunds caught two of the three INTs.

 

White's INT was Mac Jones giving him a gift.  Tre was playing way off and the ball sailed.  

So now we’re giving circumstances on interceptions, funny other teams corners don’t get held to that standard

[Dillenger4]

Tre - I have always thought he is just average. He shines when we don't need him in blowout games and can't defend when we do need him. He has never been an All Pro even though he has been tagged as one. He had 3 penalties vs. the Bengals (2 in playoff game, 1 in the Damar game). Let him rehab all he wants - he will still be the average wimpy CB that he is. The OP is bang on correct. he is a problem.

Elam and Jackson hit HARD. Tre is a wimp. He has no "drive". Let's get real about this and I don't want to hear "ALL pro, injury bla blah blah". You wait and see... he will never be a stud. I love The Bills! But it's easy to pick out who the weak links are....

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Back2Buff said:

The whole Tre White situation to start the year was strange at first, but then you seen him get on the field, and you realized why he wasn't playing.  The guy was not very good this year at all.  Some will blame the injury, but how many games you going to give a guy till he is back to playing up to his very large payday?

 

A lot of players have said they were not "themselves" the first year back from an ACL.

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah I suspect Von Miller will be back early next season........and the reality that most athletes return faster than Tre did will be restored as a norm in the mindset of most Bills fans.    While Beane fluffed Tre's rehab to the media DURING the comeback........I think the implication after the fact...."Von's been thru this before"....... is that they think White could have handled it better.    I didn't see White's logic in putting on a bunch of muscle in his upper body to carry around on a surgically repaired knee.  When you play a speed and quickness position you need to shed weight as you age to keep that.

Unrelated point, but I noticed that the Cincy corners were pounding Bills receivers at the line and in a way that could have been called a penalty (hands to face, etc.). KC did it to the Bills in 2020, and then TB did it KC in the SB. The holds and PIs get called in the playoffs, albeit at a lower rate, but the stuff that happens at the line seems to never get called once the playoffs roll around. Playing zone off coverage like the Bills always do -- giving free releases to the likes of Tyreek Hill, Waddle (who if he had a better QB and better hands should have had over 150 yards receiving), and Chase -- seems to me a bad strategy for the postseason. Either that or they have no faith that their CBs can keep up. Point is, their scheme is dubious in the postseason vs. good QBs. It works against running qbs in wind games (Lamar Jackson), but that's never going to be the norm. I mean, Philip Rivers, who couldn't throw the ball 40 yards in the air by that point, absolutely carved them up in the postseason. And the Pats simply had terrible receivers last year with a weak-armed QB. Versus Burrow and Mahomes, forget about it. I think they'd also struggle in the postseason vs. Herbert and Lawrence if they insist on predominantly playing off. 

[oldmanfan]

And the overreaction insanity begins...

[dave mcbride]

19 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

And the overreaction insanity begins...

It is worth looking at the numbers. CBs don't do so well with regard to returning from ACL injuries. You have to go to the chart at the bottom because the top-line numbers conflate all DBs (CBs and safeties). 2 years after an acl tear, 29 percent are still in the league, and 3 years it's 28 percent. Not saying he can't come back to full strength, but the numbers are the numbers:

 

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23259671221079637

 

Here is a screen shot of the chart.

Edited January 26, 2023 by dave mcbride

[Airseven]

There’s a “problem” if White can’t perform next season. While there were oddities with him this season, it’s not uncommon for athletes to take over a year to regain trust and form after this injury. Getting him physically back on the field was only step one.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Unrelated point, but I noticed that the Cincy corners were pounding Bills receivers at the line and in a way that could have been called a penalty (hands to face, etc.). KC did it to the Bills in 2020, and then TB did it KC in the SB. The holds and PIs get called in the playoffs, albeit at a lower rate, but the stuff that happens at the line seems to never get called once the playoffs roll around. Playing zone off coverage like the Bills always do -- giving free releases to the likes of Tyreek Hill, Waddle (who if he had a better QB and better hands should have had over 150 yards receiving), and Chase -- seems to me a bad strategy for the postseason. Either that or they have no faith that their CBs can keep up. Point is, their scheme is dubious in the postseason vs. good QBs. It works against running qbs in wind games (Lamar Jackson), but that's never going to be the norm. I mean, Philip Rivers, who couldn't throw the ball 40 yards in the air by that point, absolutely carved them up in the postseason. And the Pats simply had terrible receivers last year with a weak-armed QB. Versus Burrow and Mahomes, forget about it. I think they'd also struggle in the postseason vs. Herbert and Lawrence if they insist on predominantly playing off. 

 

 

The officials clearly had a mandate to allow a lot more physicality in the secondary this season.    I thought the Bills decision to go with Elam in round 1 was a clear, shortsighted over-investment for a zone based defense.......until I saw how physical the officials were allowing DB's to play once the season started.    Allowing illegal contact/holding/PI makes man coverage a much safer option.    It's been an under-discussed point about this season.   Sauce Gardner in particular had an All Pro type season doing things that would have had him flagged relentlessly in 2020.   

 

[dave mcbride]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The officials clearly had a mandate to allow a lot more physicality in the secondary this season.    I thought the Bills decision to go with Elam in round 1 was a clear, shortsighted over-investment for a zone based defense.......until I saw how physical the officials were allowing DB's to play once the season started.    Allowing illegal contact/holding/PI makes man coverage a much safer option.    It's been an under-discussed point about this season.   Sauce Gardner in particular had an All Pro type season doing things that would have had him flagged relentlessly in 2020.   

 

This whole thing got me thinking. With regard to 13 seconds, there was a very simple solution that I'm pretty sure would have worked, and the Bills did the opposite of it. Rush 3, match up 4 DBs at the line vs. the KC receivers in press, have 4 behind them to clean up if anyone breaks through, and HOLD, HOLD, HOLD in the most obvious ways against every receiver for 2 plays. That eats up 10 seconds and forces a hail mary from their own 35. Given that I'm thinking of this makes me really wonder about the Bills' coaching in situations like that.

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

Bills have a losing in the playoffs problem....stems from coaching.  Tre will be fine.

[HOUSE]

Tre White will work hard all off season and will be even better next year.

 

[mannc]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

No offense, but this post is way off base.  Many of us repeatedly told this board that it can take until the following season before a player comes fully back from this injury.  Yet this delusion persisted that not only was Tre gonna be ready week 1, but he’d quickly get back to his old self.  That was never likely going to happen no matter how many people tried to convince themselves otherwise.

 

Bills don’t have a Tre problem (at least not yet), they have a problem with inaccurate expectations on Tre from fans this past season.  
 

Tre may or may not get back to the player he was, but that was never really going to be known until next season.  

Which also means we can't expect anything from Von Miller until 2024, when he'll be 35.

[John from Riverside]

I’m not giving up on a player that was an all pro for us who is not old

[Buffalo Junction]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If Mac Jones could do whatever he wanted against our DB's, why did he make the decision to throw 3 INT's?

In the OPs defense…. Two were to Milano and Edmunds…. Detracting from his point…. One interception was to Tre White. 😂 

[Governor]

He isn’t worth a buttered roll in a trade so we’re stuck with him.

[KOKBILLS]

3 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

The whole Tre White situation to start the year was strange at first, but then you seen him get on the field, and you realized why he wasn't playing.  The guy was not very good this year at all.  Some will blame the injury, but how many games you going to give a guy till he is back to playing up to his very large payday?

 

I think White will never be what he was.  He looked old out there, even after just playing 5 or 6 games this year.  I also think his playing style limits the entire defense on the type of defense we can play.  He does not excel in press man and needs to play off guys.  I personally think this team needs to play more press man.  Tough to transition to that when your "number 1" CB and 16 million dollar man can't play it at a top level.

 

Problem with White is, you can't get out of his contract.  His dead cap is higher than if he is on the team.

 

The only option I really see, is if Taron Johnson takes over for Poyer at safety.  Tre moves to nickel corner where he will be less exposed on an island, and you bring in another press man outside CB to pair with Elam.  Elam's strength is press man and it was really head scratching you drafted him and then played him in a zone.

 

 

 

I don't know...We'll see.

 

If you listen to Beane's comments in the Presser he basically said it's mental not physical with Tre right now. Sure he could be hiding some things. But they have internal testing from before the injury and after, and it sounded to me like the Bills feel he's back physically, but mentally he struggled with the first major injury he's ever had playing football. Beane even mentioned stopping and cutting on that knee being different until you get over the mental part of it. That would explain his looking a step slower. But the only way we're going to find out for sure is to see how he plays early next year. 

[John from Riverside]

18 minutes ago, Governor said:

He isn’t worth a buttered roll in a trade so we’re stuck with him.

“Stuck” with Trey White lol

[Gugny]

20 minutes ago, Governor said:

He isn’t worth a buttered roll in a trade so we’re stuck with him.

 

What if it's one a them Texas Roadhouse rolls with their cinnamon butter?

[JerseyBills]

That pass interference on Higgins was embarrassing. 

 

Not only did he nearly injure himself and Poyer but he looked so average.  He was a phenomenal, all pro  CB prior to the injury. So I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt but if this continues next season,  Buf def has an awful contract and a real problem. 

 

His energy and swag were nowhere to be seen this year. Bill's had to give him that contract,  they had no choice. But he looked awful in the few games he played. I just pray we get the vibrant, fun loving , lockdown Tre White back next year

[Success]

I'm not as worried about White as some.  I thought he was improving every game, except for last week.

 

It does take time (sometimes) for a player to get back to 100% after an ACL.  It will make such a difference next year if he's all the way back or close to it, and Elam takes a 2nd year leap, as he really came on the last part of the year also.

 

Here's hoping. Not much else we can do.

 

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, HOUSE said:

Tre White will work hard all off season and will be even better next year.

 

That's what I'm saying.  You have to give Tre the benefit of the doubt.  If this level of play continues,  I'll be the 1st to say he lost it but we gotta give this man his space. That's an emotional injury as much as it was physical. 

 

Let him get right. If we had all Pro Tre vs KC we probably have a Lombardi 

[BearNorth]

Revis had an ACL tear in 2012 at Age 27, He had a so-so season in 2013, in 2014 he played for the Pats and was a first team all-pro, In 2015 had a decent season with 5 ints, but fell off rapidly after that.  Not finding a lot of other CB's that have returned to top form after ACL surgery.  Not sure Tre is big enough or a good enough tackler to move to FS.

[strive_for_five_guy]

Don’t agree with all the solutions in the OP’s post, but it’s true we’re going to be paying Tre a lot of money next year and even beyond, so the best hope is that he can somewhat return to form.  I love Tre, keeping the fingers crossed he can do it!

 

 

 

[Back2Buff]

9 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Don’t agree with all the solutions in the OP’s post, but it’s true we’re going to be paying Tre a lot of money next year and even beyond, so the best hope is that he can somewhat return to form.  I love Tre, keeping the fingers crossed he can do it!

 

 

 

 

You don't like the solution of moving Tre to Nickel CB and Taron to Safety?

 

Taron plays a lot like Poyer and Tre coming out of college was viewed as an inside/outside guy, but some thought he was strictly an inside guy.  If you look over his tape in college, he played mostly inside CB.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

4 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

 

What's a pass rush going to do when your CB has to play 5 yards off a player because he will get burned if he doesn't, and the QB just pops it out in 2 secs to the WR that has a 5 yard cushion?

 

 

He doesn’t have to play 5 yards off because the pocket is collapsing before the receiver beats the press. 

[uticaclub]

I think moving White to safety and hope he restructures is our best move

[gordong]

so you expected him to play at a pro bowl level off a knee injury...   it takes at least 18-24 months to Fully recover.  

  Every player takes at least part of the 2nd year before they start playing where they were.  

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by gordong