Is Mahomes better than Josh Allen and Tre White ... now?

[Thurman#1]

Thought it might be time to look again at that question.

 

I searched "Mahomes" and didn't see this. If it's already been asked recently, Mods, please feel free to close the thread.

 

But for a long time now people who aren't fans of McDermott have asked that question and assumed that the answer was an obvious no, and that blame was due this group. I know it's not clear yet that Allen will continue playing as well as he has. But at this point watching him it's very clear Josh has made major improvements and that there's a pretty good chance that he'll be a top ten QB for his career.

 

So what does the group think now? Did trading the Mahomes pick to KC strengthen this team? How would you rather have, Mahomes or Josh and Tre? I'm leaning towards Josh and Tre.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Mickey]

I don't know what makes me more sad, that you are starting a thread at 4:30 am or that I am awake to read it. 😁

[Dr.Sack]

We will find out in a few weeks. 

[billsbackto81]

31 minutes ago, Mickey said:

I don't know what makes me more sad, that you are starting a thread at 4:30 am or that I am awake to read it. 😁

PUSH.

 

Tie goes to the OP🤣

[Your Brown Eye]

Mahomes still has that fat SB ring, the other two don't. Right now yeah, but the Allen and White combo are closing the gap. I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would trade Mahomes for Allen and White.

[Forward Progress]

16 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

PUSH.

 

Tie goes to the OP🤣

I just checked with Al Riveron.  New rule this year - the tie goes to second person to take control. 

[Teddy KGB]

Mahomes is the best to ever do it.   
 

Gonna have to win a Super Bowl to start this conversation 

[Lfod]

I was never going to blame McDermott for not picking Mahomes. It was his first time being a Head Coach and I guess he took the safe road and wasn't going to rush into making a big swing. New Head Coach has time to build a team. 

 

It seems obvious now that Mahomes should of been the pick, but if it was so obvious at the time he would of been gone before the Bills got the chance to draft him anyway.

 

We could never really know how good Mahomes would of been if the Bills selected him. People can say whatever because of what he did in KC but that was a different team at the time. 

 

I didn't care about the Mahomes situation. I cared about the Josh Allen situation. Not picking Mahomes is not as bad as picking Josh Allen and it being a failure. At the moment I feel good about Josh Allen. I don't have to worry about wanting to see the backup QB play in hopes he can be better.

 

I also think that Josh Allen can do things that maybe Mahomes can't. I dunno if Mahomes can hurdle defenders and make defenders miss like Josh Allen can. 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Lfod

[JMF2006]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Thought it might be time to look again at that question.

 

I searched "Mahomes" and didn't see this. If it's already been asked recently, Mods, please feel free to close the thread.

 

But for a long time now people who aren't fans of McDermott have asked that question and assumed that the answer was an obvious no, and that blame was due this group. I know it's not clear yet that Allen will continue playing as well as he has. But at this point watching him it's very clear Josh has made major improvements and that there's a pretty good chance that he'll be a top ten QB for his career.

 

So what does the group think now? Did trading the Mahomes pick to KC strengthen this team? How would you rather have, Mahomes or Josh and Tre? I'm leaning towards Josh and Tre.

 

Never seen this topic brought up.....since last week  and about 6-8 times per year

 

 

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Lfod said:

I was never going to blame McDermott for not picking Mahomes. It was his first time being a Head Coach and I guess he took the safe road and wasn't going to rush into making a big swing. New Head Coach has time to build a team. 

 

It seems obvious now that Mahomes should of been the pick, but if it was so obvious at the time he would of been gone before the Bills got the chance to draft him anyway.

 

We could never really know how good Mahomes would of been if the Bills selected him. People can say whatever because of what he did in KC but that was a different team at the time. 

 

I didn't care about the Mahomes situation. I cared about the Josh Allen situation. Not picking Mahomes is not as bad as picking Josh Allen and it being a failure. At the moment I feel good about Josh Allen. I don't have to worry about wanting to see the backup QB play in hopes he can be better.

 

I also think that Josh Allen can do things that maybe Mahomes can't. I dunno if Mahomes can hurdle defenders and make defenders miss like Josh Allen can. 

 

 

 

If Mahomes was that obvious teams would have traded their next 5 #1 picks to move up to 1 to draft him

[Inigo Montoya]

Mahomes is the best QB in the League.  That being said, I don't know if he has the same level of success if he gets drafted by Buffalo. He stepped into the perfect situation with a stable franchise, an innovative offensive minded coach in Andy Reid, the ability to sit behind Alex Smith and learn all year, lots of weapons around him, and a solid defense.  What would he have had in Buffalo?  The honest answer is just a defense.  Where a QB goes is probably the single biggest factor that determines their future success. It's definitely a fun "what if" to kick around but I don't think Mahomes becomes Mahomes in Buffalo. That trade is all water under the bridge at this point.

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Inigo Montoya

[IgotBILLStopay]

Technically, the comparison be Edmunds and White vs Mahomes in terms of trade compensation.

 

That being said, I am happy with what we have in JA. Not sure if we were as set at each position as the Chiefs. So not sure Mahomes woulda won a C’ship here already.
 

But .. Mahomes man!! He is special no doubt. Kudos to the posters here who recognized that before the draft ( I did not).

[BillsFanSD]

14 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Mahomes is the best QB in the League.  That being said, I don't know if he has the same level of success if he gets drafted by Buffalo. He stepped into the perfect situation with a stable franchise, an innovative offensive minded coach in Andy Reid, the ability to sit behind Alex Smith and learn all year, lots of weapons around him, and a solid defense.  What would he have had in Buffalo?  The honest answer is just a defense.  Where a QB goes is probably the single biggest factor that determines their future success. It's definitely a fun "what if" to kick around but I don't think Mahomes becomes Mahomes in Buffalo.  The Bills trading that pick is water under the bridge at this point.

 

This is all true, but it's worth noting that Allen was drafted by a team with just a defense and he turned out just fine.  Knowing what we know now, I suspect that if the Bills had drafted Mahomes, McDermott and Daboll would have developed him successfully.  He probably would have developed faster than Allen, considering that he was further along than Allen coming out of college.  (Not a knock on Allen obviously -- we should all be able to agree that he was the rawest QB prospect to come along in quite some time).  Of course, Mahomes would not have a SB ring, but he would have the Bills in contention just like we are now.

 

But like you said, this is all academic.  The Bills obviously were never drafting Mahomes, and it's weird that people keep wringing their hands over this pick.  It turned out great for both franchises. 

Edited October 3, 2020 by BillsFanSD

[BillsMafi$]

Yes still is . Let’s see if Allen can keep this up

[HOUSE]

Mahomes is the best QB for KC & Allen is the best for Buffalo.

 

I am happy how it worked out

[PromoTheRobot]

If you want to go by fantasy points, week 3 is the first week Mahomes outperformed Allen.

[cage]

3 hours ago, Mickey said:

I don't know what makes me more sad, that you are starting a thread at 4:30 am or that I am awake to read it. 😁

 

Maybe the OP lives in Europe??  If so, the answer would be you for being awake to read it....

Edited October 3, 2020 by cage

[Victory Formation]

Only time will tell.. we got mega ultra lucky to win Allen in the draft.. Had they knew, Mahomes would’ve been a Bill.. I think the gap will close eventually.. I think Allen is more than capable of winning a few Super Bowls.. we got lucky, straight up..

[papazoid]

josh allen cost the bills 2 extra 2nd round picks (#12, #53 & #56) to move up 5 spots to #7

 

edmunds cost the bills  1 extra 3rd round pick (#22 - KC pick & #65) to move up 6 spots to #16

 

had you drafted mahomes at #10.....there is no josh or tre......but you still have #12, #53 & #56  draft picks....you can undo the edmunds trade too if you like

 

mahomes and all those draft picks are still better..... by a lot

 

fortunately josh is closing the gap......but mahomes is arguably the best player in the league at the most important position.

[eball]

2 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

Mahomes is the best to ever do it.

 

Isn’t it just a wee bit early to say that?  I will freely admit he’s had an unprecedented start to his career.  Not ready to hand out the GOAT hardware just yet though.

[HansLanda]

Open this thread if Allen and Tre ever get a ring. Until then, it's Mahomes by a wide margin. 

[Mr. K]

It bothered me and then it didn't. I have ultimate trust in McBeane to get this thing right. By "get this thing right" what I really mean is a title game. Go Bills

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

I still think Josh Allen has the potential to be better than Mahomes. He has improvements to make mentally and with his mechanics. If he can clean those things up, there's no reason he can't be the best in the league. For now, though, Mahomes is the only QB I would take over Allen.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Giuseppe Tognarelli

[Buffalo_Stampede]

How I have been reacting to all these people crowning Josh Allen. It's too early.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Chaos]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Thought it might be time to look again at that question.

 

I searched "Mahomes" and didn't see this. If it's already been asked recently, Mods, please feel free to close the thread.

 

But for a long time now people who aren't fans of McDermott have asked that question and assumed that the answer was an obvious no, and that blame was due this group. I know it's not clear yet that Allen will continue playing as well as he has. But at this point watching him it's very clear Josh has made major improvements and that there's a pretty good chance that he'll be a top ten QB for his career.

 

So what does the group think now? Did trading the Mahomes pick to KC strengthen this team? How would you rather have, Mahomes or Josh and Tre? I'm leaning towards Josh and Tre.

In this hypothetical do we get to win the Super Bowl last year or do we pretend that did not happen?

[NewEra]

The answer will always be measured in super bowl rings.  

Mahomes : 1

Allen/Tre:  0

 

Time for Allen and Tre to even the score

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

 

If Mahomes was that obvious teams would have traded their next 5 #1 picks to move up to 1 to draft him

This!

 

  I read constantly here that so many posters here wanted to draft him and yet...he came from an "air raid" scheme that so many other QB's failed at once entering the NFL. The reality was that not many were here saying they wanted Mahomes pre draft. 

 

"The skinny:Chiefs GM John Dorsey and head coach Andy Reid saw Brett Favre in Green Bay, and they have to see some of that gunslinger attitude in Mahomes. There is a risk factor here given his penchant for throwing the ball anywhere and from any arm angle (which will turn into interceptions in the NFL), and they have up a future first-round pick to get him. But if anyone can get Mahomes to adjust and succeed, it's Reid."

https://www.nfl.com/news/2017-nfl-draft-quick-snap-grades-for-all-32-teams-0ap3000000804541

 

"Steven Ruiz of USA Today gave the Chiefs a C-minus for picking Mahomes. He wrote: “Calling Mahomes a project is a major understatement. He’s nowhere near ready to play in the NFL. And, honestly, he may never be. Between his inconsistent accuracy due to poor mechanics, his tendency to bail from clean pockets and his lack of field vision, he’s going to leave as many big plays on the field as he creates. This was a risky pick.”

https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/for-petes-sake/article224076765.html

 

The Chiefs traded up to No. 10 overall and took quarterback Patrick Mahomes from Texas Tech. Quite a few of the “experts” thought Kansas City had made a mistake.

 

Mahomes was allowed to sit for an entire season behind first overall pick Alex Smith. That certainly didn't happen in Buffalo with Allen and in fact Josh didn't even have a veteran QB to learn on at first or an actual QB coach. Plus, this coaching staff thought Nathan Peterman should start over Allen. That sentence right there shows how bizarre the offensive thinking was in Buffalo that season. The Bills offensive line stunk and Josh was forced to run all season because the pocket broke down so often. 

 

Reflecting on that thought, nobody on the Bills scouting staff, nor Doug Whaley could be trusted to see offensive talent. That crew drafted Zay Jones with a #2 pick, #37 overall. Let's not forget that the GM and entire Buffalo Bills scouting staff were fired right after that 2017 draft and THEN hired Brandon Beane May 9th 2017. 

 

McD knows defensive talent and I'm not going to fault him for trading back for Tre White when he had Whaley and his scouts doing the offensive evaluating at that time. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

If you want to go by fantasy points, week 3 is the first week Mahomes outperformed Allen.

 

 

No fantasy points in that SB win?

 

Honest answer is Mahomes. See Papazoid's thread above for why... 

[stinky finger]

1 hour ago, Victory Formation said:

Only time will tell.. we got mega ultra lucky to win Allen in the draft.. Had they knew, Mahomes would’ve been a Bill.. I think the gap will close eventually.. I think Allen is more than capable of winning a few Super Bowls.. we got lucky, straight up..

 

Lucky? How so?

 

Our front office saw in this kid what many did not. He is developing before our eyes. A combination hard work by JA and the coaching being provided.

 

I don't see that as luck. We're on a good path led by a competent GM and coach. It's their vision and plan that is beginning to blossom and yes, make no mistake, it's being led by JA.

 

 

3 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

Mahomes is the best to ever do it.   
 

Gonna have to win a Super Bowl to start this conversation 

 

Mahomes the best to EVER do it?

 

Gonna have to win more than one SB to start that conversation.

[Punching Bag]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

So what does the group think now? Did trading the Mahomes pick to KC strengthen this team? How would you rather have, Mahomes or Josh and Tre? I'm leaning towards Josh and Tre.

 

Hard to determine until Tre gets used to running with big wallet in pocket.

[stinky finger]

1 hour ago, HansLanda said:

Open this thread if Allen and Tre ever get a ring. Until then, it's Mahomes by a wide margin. 

 

They are separated by 1 Lombardi trophy. Mahomes is an absolute beast and sits atop the QB for sure.

 

If Buffalo wins the SB and Allen continues to lead the way with his spectacular play, the field is even and the conversation may change. 

 

 

[Niagara Dude]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Thought it might be time to look again at that question.

 

I searched "Mahomes" and didn't see this. If it's already been asked recently, Mods, please feel free to close the thread.

 

But for a long time now people who aren't fans of McDermott have asked that question and assumed that the answer was an obvious no, and that blame was due this group. I know it's not clear yet that Allen will continue playing as well as he has. But at this point watching him it's very clear Josh has made major improvements and that there's a pretty good chance that he'll be a top ten QB for his career.

 

So what does the group think now? Did trading the Mahomes pick to KC strengthen this team? How would you rather have, Mahomes or Josh and Tre? I'm leaning towards Josh and Tre.

At this point yes because Mahomes won KC a Super Bowl,  until Josh leads the team to the Super Bowl and wins than you cannot make that comparison.  hile Josh is doing great it's too early in the season with 2 of the wins coming against garbage teams.  Having said that,  Josh has shown huge improvements in his game since last year.  He now needs to be consistent and than carry it over into the playoffs.  Nothing we can do about not drafting Mahomes,  i am just happy we drafted Josh over all other QB'S in that draft because i believe he was the best QB in that draft including Jackson who i think will not have as long a career because he is not a pocket passer.  Fans should be thankful the Bills never drafted Josh Rosen who looks like a first bust.    So fans should be happy we have Josh and not worried about Mahomes

[stinky finger]

55 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The answer will always be measured in super bowl rings.  

Mahomes : 1

Allen/Tre:  0

 

Time for Allen and Tre to even the score

 

Wrong.

 

I read earlier in this thread that Mahomes is the best ever to do it. He has one.

 

Someone is lying.

[Magox]

I thought it was a possibility that Allen + White could be as valuable as Mahomes.   It wasn't based off what they had accomplished just a belief of what could be.

 

Right now, that possibility is becoming more of a reality.  With that said, the only way this argument will hold up is if the Bills win a Super Bowl.  Until then, it's not a reality.  Even though I do think that the trade doesn't look nearly as bad as it used to.

[BillsFan130]

3 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

Mahomes is the best to ever do it.   
 

Gonna have to win a Super Bowl to start this conversation 

Best QB ever? 
 

Let’s pump the brakes on that lol

[Rc2catch]

I agree with others it largely has to do sign super bowl rings. That said, this is the NFL and careers change quickly. Mahomes has been great and had the best start ever to a career. Can he do it another 10+ years effectively? 
For now the Super Bowl ring is the only judgement, but we won’t really know until 10 years or so 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

Mahomes is the best to ever do it.   
 

Gonna have to win a Super Bowl to start this conversation 

 

I agree completely with @Teddy KGB

 

Wait, WHAT?

 

Oh, OK, second sentence.  First sentence is TBD.  So I don't agree completely.  Whew.

[TigerJ]

Pat Mahomes as a possibility for the Bills' QB is a water under the bridge issue as far as I'm concerned.   I'm happy with both Tre White and Josh Allen.  That is enough for me.

[finn]

I get it that Mahomes is terrific, but so are Rodgers and Wilson--and, so far this season, Allen. I don't quite get the hyperventilating. Fine, he's the best now, but the best of all time? Reinventing the quarterback position? Worth five first-round draft picks? I'm not trying to be obtuse--tell me if I'm missing something. Not what makes him very good but what makes him better than Montana, Young, Brady, Marino, Wilson, Favre, et al. I just went through four or five of his "best throws" compilations, and they're really no better than the highlights of everyone else on that list. Yes, the occasional quirky throw is cool and unusual. Is that it? 

 

I suspect what's at work is that impulse toward hyperbole we all have to some degree. Mahomes can't just be excellent, he has to be transcendent, the GOAT, like no one else who has ever lived in the history of ***** sapiens. Fans and the media can't credibly worship Brady anymore--although ESPN and SI are doing their part--so maybe they're just looking for a new deity. In Mahomes I see a terrific quarterback, someone who belongs in the same conversation as some of the above stars, but one not clearly better as any of them, especially with other variables factored in, like his O-line, receivers and coaches.

 

And, FWIW, I think Allen will be better!

 

Flame away. 

[stinky finger]

10 minutes ago, finn said:

I get it that Mahomes is terrific, but so are Rodgers and Wilson--and, so far this season, Allen. I don't quite get the hyperventilating. Fine, he's the best now, but the best of all time? Reinventing the quarterback position? Worth five first-round draft picks? I'm not trying to be obtuse--tell me if I'm missing something. Not what makes him very good but what makes him better than Montana, Young, Brady, Marino, Wilson, Favre, et al. I just went through four or five of his "best throws" compilations, and they're really no better than the highlights of everyone else on that list. Yes, the occasional quirky throw is cool and unusual. Is that it? 

 

I suspect what's at work is that impulse toward hyperbole we all have to some degree. Mahomes can't just be excellent, he has to be transcendent, the GOAT, like no one else who has ever lived in the history of ***** sapiens. Fans and the media can't credibly worship Brady anymore--although ESPN and SI are doing their part--so maybe they're just looking for a new deity. In Mahomes I see a terrific quarterback, someone who belongs in the same conversation as some of the above stars, but one not clearly better as any of them, especially with other variables factored in, like his O-line, receivers and coaches.

 

And, FWIW, I think Allen will be better!

 

Flame away. 

 

Mahomes is the latest therefore the greatest?