New "ironclad" Stadium deal reached

[dwight in philly]

9 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Yep, I was thinking that after the 30 year lease is up, I’ll be 101 y/o when the next one opens.

 

 

 

or not..

LOL.. I will be 104.. will  have  to cut back a bit on the pre-game drinking im thinking.. 

[simpleman]

Just remember taxpayers are pitching in most of the money for multi billionaire Pegula to make more money selling you an entertainment opportunity. Forget all the false propaganda about the economic returns for sports stadiums. The truth is the returns are minimal for the expense.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardmcgahey/2022/03/29/buffalos-billion-dollar-tax-fumble/?sh=76b7714c516f

[Dr. Who]

Just now, simpleman said:

Just remember taxpayers are pitching in most of the money for multi billionaire Pegula to make more money selling you an entertainment opportunity. Forget all the false propaganda about the economic returns for sports stadiums. The truth is the returns are minimal for the expense.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardmcgahey/2022/03/29/buffalos-billion-dollar-tax-fumble/?sh=76b7714c516f

The returns are not economic, for sure. The return is without the Bills, you are Toledo, OH.

[May Day 10]

People also discount the amount of tax revenue you get having 50+ millionaires working in the county/state.  It doesnt make up the entirety of the stadium, but it does put a chunk into in.  

 

And it is a civic pride thing.  The Bills mean so much to the city and the people.  It truly puts our region on the map globally.  Like it or not, the price of these things is a large public contribution to the franchise.  Without that, you will lose your team.    Personally, I get a lot of mileage out of the Bills and will certainly use the new stadium for entertainment.  How many state dollars flows into things I will never use downstate and Albany?

 

Also, I read that in the long-run, Erie County will save money in the deal as they will be out of the operating costs

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

20 minutes ago, simpleman said:

Just remember taxpayers are pitching in most of the money for multi billionaire Pegula to make more money selling you an entertainment opportunity. Forget all the false propaganda about the economic returns for sports stadiums. The truth is the returns are minimal for the expense.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardmcgahey/2022/03/29/buffalos-billion-dollar-tax-fumble/?sh=76b7714c516f

I would bet that 90% of my tax dollars go to things that I would not approve of.  It is about time tax money is spent on something that I enjoy and approve of!

[ChevyVanMiller]

The same design firm that created the new stadium for Tottenham of the Premier League will be the ones doing the new Bills stadium. It was revealed that Terry and Kim Pegula, along with top PSE executives, took an extensive tour of the Tottenham stadium last year and were greatly impressed.

 

Here is a close up look at the stadium. It is thought that it will serve as a model for what we’ll see here in Orchard Park.

 

[Mat68]

After going to games in Tampa and Miami its time for a new Stadium.  Those are not even cutting edge but miles ahead of High mark.  I think it will be good.   Better in stadium experience overall.  More primetime home games. 

[wiseman3]

17 hours ago, boater said:

OK. Very cool. ONLY.. if that's an NFL dimensioned infield. If they build Highmark 2 with a soccer dimensioned infield, count me out.

Count you out if they make it compatible with soccer dimensions? The only difference really is more room in the corners. Highmark is already pretty wide at the 50 yard line.  Seems like a minimal sacrifice to be able to host more events to get more out of the stadium. Tennessee, Dallas, Arizona, Seattle, Miami, Foxborough, Chicago, Baltimore, Denver, Las Vegas, Cleveland, Washington, Charlotte, Philly, and MetLife all have hosted soccer matches. And probably more that I can't think of

Edited March 29, 2022 by wiseman3
Added

[LabattBlue]

10 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Yep, I was thinking that after the 30 year lease is up, I’ll be 101 y/o when the next one opens.

 

 

 

or not..

I thought you were already 101. 😂

[MILFHUNTER#518]

4 hours ago, mannc said:

Apparently it will be a natural grass playing surface…It’s often suggested that natural grass surfaces are safer for the players, but are there statistical studies that back that up?  I know the old “Astro turf” was terrible, but I’d thought modern artificial turf was as safe as the real stuff….

Where did you see this? I think this would be awesome if true...

 

 

[mannc]

1 minute ago, MILFHUNTER#518 said:

Where did you see this? I think this would be awesome if true...

 

 

Joe Marino said that on his podcast…I haven’t read it anywhere yet

[Peter]

1 hour ago, ChevyVanMiller said:

The same design firm that created the new stadium for Tottenham of the Premier League will be the ones doing the new Bills stadium. It was revealed that Terry and Kim Pegula, along with top PSE executives, took an extensive tour of the Tottenham stadium last year and were greatly impressed.

 

Here is a close up look at the stadium. It is thought that it will serve as a model for what we’ll see here in Orchard Park.

 

 

Great stadium even though Spurs play there.

 

The same firm (Populous) also designed my favorite EPL team back in 2006:

 

Arsenal's Emirates Stadium - North London is Red - COYG

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Peter

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, MILFHUNTER#518 said:

Where did you see this? I think this would be awesome if true...

 

 

 

It was one of the main points issued by the Pegulas. Open-air with seat covering, in OP, natural grass field.

 

4 hours ago, mannc said:

Apparently it will be a natural grass playing surface…It’s often suggested that natural grass surfaces are safer for the players, but are there statistical studies that back that up?  I know the old “Astro turf” was terrible, but I’d thought modern artificial turf was as safe as the real stuff….

 

Nothing is as safe as the real stuff, because nothing gives like the real stuff. Any type of artificial surface, even the newer stuff, does not rip up and divot like a natural grass field. The lack of give or tear-away ability is what will always make the artificial surfaces inferior and more dangerous than good ol grass growing in dirt.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, ChevyVanMiller said:

The same design firm that created the new stadium for Tottenham of the Premier League will be the ones doing the new Bills stadium. It was revealed that Terry and Kim Pegula, along with top PSE executives, took an extensive tour of the Tottenham stadium last year and were greatly impressed.

 

Here is a close up look at the stadium. It is thought that it will serve as a model for what we’ll see here in Orchard Park.

 

 

That even LOOKS expensive! 

 

 

And I don’t care. 

[mannc]

18 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

 

 

Nothing is as safe as the real stuff, because nothing gives like the real stuff. Any type of artificial surface, even the newer stuff, does not rip up and divot like a natural grass field. The lack of give or tear-away ability is what will always make the artificial surfaces inferior and more dangerous than good ol grass growing in dirt.

I read up on it.  That seems to be the case and it is why the NFLPA is pushing for all NFL stadiums to convert to natural grass...Right now, just under half are natural grass.

[mjd1001]

2 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

The returns are not economic, for sure. The return is without the Bills, you are Toledo, OH.

Other cities without the NFL would include places like....Austin, Tucson, Louisville, Orlando, Raleigh-Durham....Any Canadian City including Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver......not saying I don't want the Bills but just saying.  Without an NFL team life goes on, and often times the money spent on those teams get re-allocated other places and generates other entertainment options.

 

Again, I do not want the Bills to leave Buffalo at all, but I have to admit I have thought of what it would be like in WNY without the Bills and what may pop up in the void they leave for people to do with their entertainment dollar/time.

[CountDorkula]

10 hours ago, haroldwaide said:

After 15 years in the new stadium, the amount the team would have to pay back to NYS and Erie County will start to decline.  If they move at any time during the lease they will ALSO have to pay to demolish the stadium.  All this, plus the NFL relocation fees means they ain't moving.

Not to be a party pooper, but St Louis had a similar agreement. They had to pay the City of St Louis hundreds of millions plus the relo fees of 700 mil.

 

Dont ever think the money hungry billionaires wont do whatever they can for an extra buck. 

[BuffaloBills1998]

23 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Other cities without the NFL would include places like....Austin, Tucson, Louisville, Orlando, Raleigh-Durham....Any Canadian City including Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver......not saying I don't want the Bills but just saying.  Without an NFL team life goes on, and often times the money spent on those teams get re-allocated other places and generates other entertainment options.

 

Again, I do not want the Bills to leave Buffalo at all, but I have to admit I have thought of what it would be like in WNY without the Bills and what may pop up in the void they leave for people to do with their entertainment dollar/time.

Well they’re staying so there’s no point in having any thought of what WNY would be like without the Bills

[Wayne Cubed]

40 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It was one of the main points issued by the Pegulas. Open-air with seat covering, in OP, natural grass field.

 

 

Nothing is as safe as the real stuff, because nothing gives like the real stuff. Any type of artificial surface, even the newer stuff, does not rip up and divot like a natural grass field. The lack of give or tear-away ability is what will always make the artificial surfaces inferior and more dangerous than good ol grass growing in dirt.

 

Yup.

 

And the advancement in growing grass and mainting grass has advanced A LOT since teams have gone to artificial turf. It's why the Ravens went back to natural grass. M&T Stadium is positioned so that in the winter months, the sunlight doesn't actually reach the field level. They tried for a couple seasons when it first opened and the field would get torn up, so went to artificial. 

 

Honestly I'm surprised more NFL teams don't looke at what soccer teams in Europe do, as they've use some very, very good systems to maintain natural grass throughout the winter months. This includes a hybrid technology, that many Premier league teams use. Baltimore is now using a artifical lighting system to grow the grass in winter months, which Europena soccer clubs also do.

 

All of this comes at a cost though and I'm sure is more expensive to maintain than artificial turf.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

12 hours ago, buffblue said:

These are rough numbers, but let's try anyways...

 

Ny state outlay = 650 million

Lease term = 30 years

Eligible taxpayers in NY as of today = 14 million

Tax burden for each NY resident = approximately 2 dollars extra per year per taxpayer

 

Boy, let me grab my pitchforks to fight...nothing???

How did you come to tax hike number ?

 

Also Erie C is pitching in 200m so that's a double tax hike for them

[beebe]

One of the best stadium renovations in all of sports is the Dolphins' Hard Rock Stadium. I loved the indoor/outdoor feel. Walking around, you'd never know this was a near 50-year old stadium. 

 

 

Cool time lapse of the construction: 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by beebe
added video

[Peter]

4 minutes ago, beebe said:

One of the best stadium renovations in all of sports is the Dolphins' Hard Rock Stadium. I loved the indoor/outdoor feel. Walking around, you'd never know this was a near 50-year old stadium. 

 

 

Cool time lapse of the construction: 

 

 

 

I have season tickets for the Hurricanes.  I have to admit that Steve Ross and the Dolphins did a great job with renovating Hard Rock Stadium.

[LabattBlue]

15 minutes ago, beebe said:

One of the best stadium renovations in all of sports is the Dolphins' Hard Rock Stadium. I loved the indoor/outdoor feel. Walking around, you'd never know this was a near 50-year old stadium. 

 

 

Cool time lapse of the construction: 

 

 

50?  I believe it is closer to 35. 😉

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Yes, so that would be the other owners, not Pegula, paying the G4 back.  

 

 

Players salary taxes are not new revenue for the state, yet this is a new expense for the state..  That money already goes into the general fund of the State.  You can't now say.. "oh it pays for itself".  That money is already spent on other things. 

 

 

 

The players salaries are not new, but without a new stadium that revenue could leave if the team moves on.

 

You can not say that it pays for itself, but you can use that revenue source as a source that would potentially leave if the team moves.

 

So the money itself is used elsewhere, but only comes in because of the money outlayed on the stadium.

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Other cities without the NFL would include places like....Austin, Tucson, Louisville, Orlando, Raleigh-Durham....Any Canadian City including Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver......not saying I don't want the Bills but just saying.  Without an NFL team life goes on, and often times the money spent on those teams get re-allocated other places and generates other entertainment options.

 

Again, I do not want the Bills to leave Buffalo at all, but I have to admit I have thought of what it would be like in WNY without the Bills and what may pop up in the void they leave for people to do with their entertainment dollar/time.

 

So as you say those are all places without the NFL and other things/entertainment pops up, but then why are Austin, Toronto, Oklahoma City, Salt Lake City, etc - always in talks to try and get an NFL city when a potential moves comes up?

 

Many places like Tucson, Orlando, Raleigh-Durham are already in an NFL teams zone and they already pay taxes that impact the surrounding teams. Whether it is Hotel taxes like in Florida or Tucson or income tax like Raleigh - they provide funding to support the NFL teams that surround them.

 

If the Bills left WNY - what would pop up?  Very little as we would have next to nothing to generate any local excitement and even more of our tax money would be spent downstate.  If the Bills had left - more than likely the Sabre’s move with the Pegula’s and suddenly you have massive holes n the fabric of the community and your taxable income in the region is dropped significantly.

 

You are correct the money spent on the teams gets reallocated, but nothing says it stays local - more funds and opportunities leave and locations look for ways to bring it back - see Baltimore, Cleveland, Houston, LA, Oakland, St. Louis - just in football.  You see the same thing in Basketball when teams move, Baseball, and Hockey - suddenly the location that lost the teams finds all kinds of new funds to build a stadium for a new incoming team.  
 

 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

50 minutes ago, BTB said:

50?  I believe it is closer to 35. 😉

Father Time’s relentless march to 50 post-35 is going by rather fast, imho…

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Jukester]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

 

Great stadium even though Spurs play there.

 

The same firm (Populous) also designed my favorite EPL team back in 2006:

 

Arsenal's Emirates Stadium - North London is Red - COYG

 

 

Populous actually did the HIghmark renovation in 2013 and the Adpro Training Center.  More links below.  Some really gorgeous work by this firm. Very excited to see the structure/plan when it comes out.

 

https://populous.com/our-projects/stadium-experience/nfl-experience

https://populous.com/our-projects/stadium-experience/soccer-stadiums

https://populous.com/our-projects/master-planning

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, beebe said:

One of the best stadium renovations in all of sports is the Dolphins' Hard Rock Stadium. I loved the indoor/outdoor feel. Walking around, you'd never know this was a near 50-year old stadium. 

 

 

Cool time lapse of the construction: 

 

 

 

You wouldn’t know it was 50 years old because it is not even close to 50 years old.  

 

It opened in 1987 - so less than 35 years and it has undergone multiple massive renovations including over 400 million dollars in 2016. With an additional 50-100 million in 2017 to allow for expansion of tennis matches that forced additional modification.

 

It is a great stadium, but in its 35 years so far they have also put over 1 billion in renovations to bring in baseball (and let it leave), redesign the football, and bring in soccer and tennis.

 

Basically they have rebuilt the stadium twice in the 35 years - similar to what the Bills asked for several years ago to help get Highmark into the future - Buffalo just chose minor renovations rather than putting 500 million into the stadium and basically retrofitting it like KC and Lambeau.

 

 

 

 

 

[LeGOATski]

Hey, did you guys know that the firm building the new Bills stadium is the same one who built the Tottenham Hotspurs stadium???

 

Who are the Gugenheim Hotpeppers, you ask?

 

No ***** idea.

[Warcodered]

 

[Mr. WEO]

41 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The players salaries are not new, but without a new stadium that revenue could leave if the team moves on.

 

You can not say that it pays for itself, but you can use that revenue source as a source that would potentially leave if the team moves.

 

So the money itself is used elsewhere, but only comes in because of the money outlayed on the stadium.

 

 

 

The amount lost if the team left town is a tiny fraction of what is being fronted for the stadium.  

 

Far more millionaires have already left NY than are employed by the Bills...yet it still can afford to blow billions in Buffalo.

[blacklabel]

Psyched to see how it turns out. I’m on #TeamDome (or retractable roof) but it sounds like this new stadium will be partially covered. They went all out with their weight room and team office renovations a few years back so I’d assume the new joint will be very modern, state of the art type stuff. Can’t wait to see the mock-ups and drawings for it. 

[YoloinOhio]

Crumbling just like your team, Woody

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by YoloinOhio

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Crumbling just like your team, Woody

 

 

This way the New York Jets continue to I get a chance to actually visit the state of New York once a year!  

[BillsfaninSB]

1 hour ago, beebe said:

One of the best stadium renovations in all of sports is the Dolphins' Hard Rock Stadium. I loved the indoor/outdoor feel. Walking around, you'd never know this was a near 50-year old stadium. 

 

 

Cool time lapse of the construction: 

 

 

The coefficients required for snow loads would make that roof really expensive to build without impacting site lines with traditional columns.   They would have to get super creative. 

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

22 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

You wouldn’t know it was 50 years old because it is not even close to 50 years old.  

 

It opened in 1987 - so less than 35 years and it has undergone multiple massive renovations including over 400 million dollars in 2016. With an additional 50-100 million in 2017 to allow for expansion of tennis matches that forced additional modification.

 

It is a great stadium, but in its 35 years so far they have also put over 1 billion in renovations to bring in baseball (and let it leave), redesign the football, and bring in soccer and tennis.

 

Basically they have rebuilt the stadium twice in the 35 years - similar to what the Bills asked for several years ago to help get Highmark into the future - Buffalo just chose minor renovations rather than putting 500 million into the stadium and basically retrofitting it like KC and Lambeau.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And it's still being remodeled right now. I went to a concert there a couple months back and all the parking was dug up on one side of the stadium. I think it's the tenis project still.

[Buffalo716]

Open air and OP is the correct choice 

 

With inflation and cost of construction .. not to mention all the infrastructure costs of a downtown stadium.. the politicians of wny finally did something right 

 

You don't mess with a good thing and the GameDay experience at a Bills game in the best in the NFL

[beebe]

1 hour ago, BTB said:

50?  I believe it is closer to 35. 😉

 

Well maybe that explains it! 😃

[LeGOATski]

9 minutes ago, BillsfaninSB said:

The coefficients required for snow loads would make that roof really expensive to build without impacting site lines with traditional columns.   They would have to get super creative. 

Creativity is part of the job, but new technology/building materials (ETFE plastic) makes this a much easier task these days. They don't have to be as creative as you think. Columns obviously won't be needed and they plan on temp-control features for every seat in the stadium.