Mitch Morse seems to be at the ‘Center’ of Bills ails -TheAthletic

[Simon]

21 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

The fact is Morse has been a problem going back to last season,

This is not a fact, it is an opinion.

And I'm guessing the film would show it to be a very inaccurate one.

[The Frankish Reich]

30 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Get the linemen in the draft!! Don’t waste valuable coin on FA. Should learn lesson from Morse contract. There are some good, quality linemen in draft. Utah, Boston College, Iowa, Kentucky. Get the scouts out to their programs and get to work

In fairness to Morse - I still believe that was a good signing. More than anyone else he brought stability, experience, leadership to what was previously a disastrous offensive line unit. This year is a different kind of poor line performance - rather than a chaotic unit I think we're seeing declines in individual performance based on a variety of factors. Morse: age, past his prime. Dawkins: COVID, perhaps post-contract letdown. Ford: failure to develop, etc., etc.

Whatever, it's time to move on. They're stuck with Dawkins; you just have to hope he rebounds. Everyone else is completely dispensable. Spencer Brown has talent, but who knows; it's not like he's dominated. I wouldn't be surprised to see only Dawkins back as a starter next year.

EDIT: I just checked the contracts again. They're pretty much stuck with Daryl Williams too for one more year.

Edited December 10, 2021 by The Frankish Reich

[Process]

With his contract it's basically a guarantee that this is his last year in Buffalo

[78thealltimegreat]

The article states that he’s made for more a classic athletic center needed Shannahan Zone blocking scheme…

It might work but it would require firing the offensive staff and getting people who can implement it and also getting a back in place that can make a one cut 

Edited December 10, 2021 by 78thealltimegreat

[BuffaloBill]

2 hours ago, Gisele said:

Still it's so odd that so many of our linemen are regressing.  Something is (or isn't) going on with coaching.  

 

I don't think it is regression. Instead the style the Bills need to play has changed. The game now calls for more run ability. The Bills built themselves to be a finesse passing team. 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

It’s an uncomfortable truth: Buffalo should replace its entire interior OL.

 

Do I expect it to happen? No. I think best we get is 2 new OGs w/ Morse for another year after a pay cut. Even more likely I think is they add one new OG and try to roll w/ Feliciano and Morse as starters again. 
 

Agree w/ Solomon G that it is wiser to draft OL as opposed to spending big FA $, and I don’t want a repeat of bargain OL. To me, even a 1st round pick is worth it if it figures to net Buffalo a starting C/OG for 5-10 years. It all starts up front. 

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

“… However, the Bills’ trip to Jacksonville started a negative trend. It was the first time an opposing team turned the passing offense into an inefficient unit, as the Jaguars dared the Bills to run and the Bills had no counter. It began the Bills’ desire to get the ground game going a bit more, and they tried a lot of different blocking and rushing principles to accomplish it.

That brings us to Morse, who remains a good pass blocker and is an asset in run blocking schemes centered on athleticism. However, if the Bills are insistent on being more physical than the opponent with power run schemes, as they did at times against the Patriots, Morse will likely struggle. That was the case on Monday, as Morse easily had the worst game of his season and was a liability as a run blocker. He even showed some struggles as a pass blocker against bigger defensive tackles, which isn’t usually the case. Either way, the Bills needed a great deal more from Morse in a bad-weather game, where winning at the line of scrimmage was at the top of head coach Sean McDermott’s mind after the game. Over the last five games, Morse has a 2.42 GPA, and his season-long grade has plummeted. So it is fair to wonder what this means going forward, similar to last season when things unraveled with Morse.”

This has been a topic of discussion since he arrived via FA. His contract is up and we’d save $8.5M to let him walk. For as efficient as he is in passpro and Allen’s security blanket, he’s a detriment in the run game. Most importantly, our opponents know this. I seriously think we bid him farewell this offseason, not bothering to tend him even a lesser contract. Feliciano has shown well at C vs. the run, not so well vs. the pass -or at Guard. 

If he is shown the door, how do we adequately rebuild the OLine to balance the offense? This has been a crappy weather season already, so Mother Nature has dictated a lot of what we can do offensively.  No reason believe next year will be all sunshine and roses..

 

Are there players on the roster who can make the jump? Bates? Jamil Douglas?  Jacob Capra? Ford?? Bobby freakin’ Hart???

 

(excellent article, btw, for subscribers)

 

That seems to be Brandon's MO.  He was building a passing team.  He found a QB, some good wideouts, and some journeymen linemen who were typically better at pass pro then road grading.  

 

That hasn't worked out real well.  They OL still isn't great at protections and sucks at creating push in short yardage situations or opening holes.   

 

I hope Beane rethinks things.

 

Maybe its overly dramatic but I tend to like the Chiefs solution to the same problem: Get a whole new OL.

[Bangarang]

Both lines need an overhaul. 
 

Dawkins and Brown are the only guys that have a future here. 
 

The defensive line isn’t impressive either. Addison and Hughes don’t offer much. Butler is useless. Harry is a jag. Oliver is inconsistent. Epenesa is mostly invisible. Groot is a stop the run and get coverage sacks guy. It’s so sad how we’re at this point. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Yea Ive had a sinking suspicion for a few weeks that Morse wasn’t just struggling due bad guard play. I recall last year people being impressed with Feliciano’s play at Center. Morse has dealt with a ton of injuries and he isn’t the biggest OL in the game. I wouldn’t be shocked if he retired at year end.

[BobChalmers]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

McDermott can preach and force the physical run game all he wants…. He doesn’t seem to understand the Bills don’t have the personnel for it…. 

 

Actually I think McDermott is very aware of it.  His presser he all but said as much - saying out loud there's not much they can do at this point in the season.

 

I remain angry at Team McBeane for doing absolutely nothing to improve the interior OL this offseason - all we can assume is that they believed in Ford and were counting on him to step up when they took Basham.  Obviously that was a disastrous mistake.  It happens. 

 

Hopefully they do a better job next year assessing OG's/C's and add at least 2.

[cwater10]

6 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

Maybe its overly dramatic but I tend to like the Chiefs solution to the same problem: Get a whole new OL.

My knee jerk reaction is to agree with this.  The OL seemed to be KC's obvious weakness in the Super Bowl.  My hesitation is that looking at the Chief's offense this year through a more holistic lens, it's clear that this offense is not even remotely as effective as it was prior to the change out of the OL.  All other factors are constants.  Is that all defensive adjustments?  Maybe the chemistry is off...  Is that what you risk with such drastic change?  On the other hand, it already appears that The Bills entire offensive chemistry is off from last year.  OK... Do it Beane!  

[BobChalmers]

6 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

The defensive line isn’t impressive either. Addison and Hughes don’t offer much. Butler is useless. Harry is a jag. Oliver is inconsistent. Epenesa is mostly invisible. Groot is a stop the run and get coverage sacks guy. It’s so sad how we’re at this point. 

 

At a minimum they need to get a real NT.  Star is average and costs a lot.  The fact that he LOST weight this offseason was a bummer - overall the front 7 is undersized - if they're going to line up in a nickel all the time and use a converted safety (Milano) at one of only two LB slots, they can't have a small set of DT's in front of them.

Edited December 10, 2021 by BobChalmers

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

17 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Both lines need an overhaul. 
 

Dawkins and Brown are the only guys that have a future here. 
 

The defensive line isn’t impressive either. Addison and Hughes don’t offer much. Butler is useless. Harry is a jag. Oliver is inconsistent. Epenesa is mostly invisible. Groot is a stop the run and get coverage sacks guy. It’s so sad how we’re at this point. 

You ever notice Joe B. has this guy always rated highly, usually B+/A- 90% of the time. Even this week he has him a B-, better than Josh Allen. Jerry was invisible Monday, and in many games.

Edited December 10, 2021 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

“… However, the Bills’ trip to Jacksonville started a negative trend. It was the first time an opposing team turned the passing offense into an inefficient unit, as the Jaguars dared the Bills to run and the Bills had no counter. It began the Bills’ desire to get the ground game going a bit more, and they tried a lot of different blocking and rushing principles to accomplish it.

That brings us to Morse, who remains a good pass blocker and is an asset in run blocking schemes centered on athleticism. However, if the Bills are insistent on being more physical than the opponent with power run schemes, as they did at times against the Patriots, Morse will likely struggle. That was the case on Monday, as Morse easily had the worst game of his season and was a liability as a run blocker. He even showed some struggles as a pass blocker against bigger defensive tackles, which isn’t usually the case. Either way, the Bills needed a great deal more from Morse in a bad-weather game, where winning at the line of scrimmage was at the top of head coach Sean McDermott’s mind after the game. Over the last five games, Morse has a 2.42 GPA, and his season-long grade has plummeted. So it is fair to wonder what this means going forward, similar to last season when things unraveled with Morse.”

This has been a topic of discussion since he arrived via FA. His contract is up and we’d save $8.5M to let him walk. For as efficient as he is in passpro and Allen’s security blanket, he’s a detriment in the run game. Most importantly, our opponents know this. I seriously think we bid him farewell this offseason, not bothering to tend him even a lesser contract. Feliciano has shown well at C vs. the run, not so well vs. the pass -or at Guard. 

If he is shown the door, how do we adequately rebuild the OLine to balance the offense? This has been a crappy weather season already, so Mother Nature has dictated a lot of what we can do offensively.  No reason believe next year will be all sunshine and roses..

 

Are there players on the roster who can make the jump? Bates? Jamil Douglas?  Jacob Capra? Ford?? Bobby freakin’ Hart???

 

(excellent article, btw, for subscribers)

 

 

Morse is very similar in style to Eric Wood.

 

Wood was terrible in the power run game under Marrone.    Might as well have been wearing skates on the field on run downs.

 

The switch to the inside zone attack under Greg Roman resuscitated his career.    

 

With less physical, athletic lineman you want them to be blocking the edges of defenders instead of trying to push their whole body weight off the LOS.

 

[letsgoteam]

2 hours ago, Gisele said:

Still it's so odd that so many of our linemen are regressing.  Something is (or isn't) going on with coaching.  

I have been wondering how much of it is regression and how much of it is referee's calling holding again, which doesn't allow them to hold like last year?

[MJS]

I think we need a better run scheme, for one. If Morse and others are better at being athletic and moving in space for run blocking, don't ask them to go out and maul defensive lines. That's not their strength.

 

I watch other teams and they have a much more varied run scheme. With this team we mostly have bland run calls.

 

And we've moved away from things that worked tremendously in the past, like the jet sweep action. Just puzzling.

 

I think Daboll is above average as a passing game coordinator, but he is well below average calling the run game.

[Niagara Dude]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

This is not a fact, it is an opinion.

And I'm guessing the film would show it to be a very inaccurate one.

I am confident in my opinion is he will be gone after the season,  i am good with that and you can call me on it later

 

 

Cheers

[Billl]

1 hour ago, Process said:

With his contract it's basically a guarantee that this is his last year in Buffalo

This is what makes the Basham pick so strange to me (and I really liked him coming out of the draft).  I understand going DE even after drafting Epenesa a year ago.  I also understand not reaching to fill needs.

 

That said, Beane went DE in the first and the best C in the draft fell right into his lap.  When the best player available also happens to be a huge position of need, you RUN to the podium.

 

Supposedly they were even going to trade the pick if Basham hadn't been available.  The Chiefs have been feasting on players the Bills should have drafted.  Creed seemed like such an obvious pick for Buffalo that I half expected Kansas City to trade ahead of them.  Meanwhile, Basham will be a 24 year old rookie next week who still has never started a game.

 

When McBeane took over, they had a very clear vision and they executed the plan beautifully.  I have no idea what the plan is now, though.  There's talent, but the roster as a whole has some serious issues.

[Kwai San]

2 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

There are a lot of good centers in upcoming draft. Alec Lindstrom, Dohnovan West, etc. Wouldn’t waste 1st on center. I’d like for the Bills to draft another tackle, Trevor Penning, and move Dawkins inside. Don’t think Penning would be there at 32 though.

 

FIFY.....

[Bangarang]

41 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Disagree with you on Groot, think he’s a good player already…. They refuse to invest in a signing or trade for an established pass rusher though. Really frustrating, they rely too heavily on the draft and have too much faith in developing their own guys IMO…. That goes for both offense and defense.

I don’t think Groot is a bad player. I just don’t see him as the kind of guy that’s going to be a double digit sack guy coming off the edge. He reminds me of Shaq Lawson. 

[billsbackto81]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Same conversation we had last year. I'm not sure what people expected? 

I'm guessing the same results as last year.

[folz]

Could it be that our run game/blocking schemes don't suit our players' strengths? Morse is an athletic, not stout center; as some said, pulling is Ford's strength; Feliciano trimmed down to be more athletic; not sure about Williams and Boettger, but they don't seem unathletic. Why aren't we running a scheme that has our interior linemen pulling more often for outside runs. Seems like it would suit our backs better too. Get them out into more space. Our guys aren't pounders. Singletary is shifty, Breida fast, and even Moss has shown some elusiveness at times.

 

I'm no expert on run/blocking schemes, just a thought, so if anyone who knows more about the Xs and Os of the run game/O-line blocking has a better perspective on this...please weigh in.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1. Morse was overpaid from the beginning but he is serviceable as a pass blocker.

2. Everyone knows this so why is Daboll and McD asking him to do things he can't. There are plenty of undersized centers that have done well with zone blocking schemes and superstar QBs. Bring in Jeff Saturday as a special consultant.

3. They should have drafted OG/C last year. Now there are too many holes on the line to fix them all. Keeping Morse for one more year makes sense so they can address the guard spots.

 

This regime really sucks at OL talent evaluation.  Beane made an average center the highest paid in the league. They let go of Teller. And Ford is a massive bust. 

 

I have no faith this regime will make the right moves

Edited December 10, 2021 by Ethan in Portland

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

I think McD has too much influence… too defensive oriented. They can’t resist on draft day. 

He better resist this April and go OL heavy or the McB moniker will be seriously on the hot seat. He's just going to have to wait later in the draft for a "diamond in the rough" CB or DT.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

38 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

I don’t think Groot is a bad player. I just don’t see him as the kind of guy that’s going to be a double digit sack guy coming off the edge. He reminds me of Shaq Lawson. 

How can you tell that after 12 games? Groot has had a solid rookie year. Far better than Epenesa and Basham. 

1 minute ago, LABILLBACKER said:

He better resist this April and go OL heavy or the McB moniker will be seriously on the hot seat. He's just going to have to wait later in the draft for a "diamond in the rough" CB or DT.

I'd be fine with a 1 tech monster DT early, but otherwise you are correct. They need 3 OL potential starters in free agency and the draft. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

4 hours ago, Gisele said:

Still it's so odd that so many of our linemen are regressing.  Something is (or isn't) going on with coaching.  

The downside of building the line in FA ? 

[Bangarang]

2 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

How can you tell that after 12 games? Groot has had a solid rookie year. Far better than Epenesa and Basham. 

Being better than Epenesa or Basham is an embarrassingly low bar to set. 
 

He just doesn’t look explosive and being long only gets you so far. I don’t see him consistently beating guys off the edge to think he’ll be much more than a decent rotation guy who’s going to set a solid edge and get the occasional sack. 

[muppy]

5 hours ago, cwater10 said:

My knee jerk reaction is to agree with this.  The OL seemed to be KC's obvious weakness in the Super Bowl.  My hesitation is that looking at the Chief's offense this year through a more holistic lens, it's clear that this offense is not even remotely as effective as it was prior to the change out of the OL.  All other factors are constants.  Is that all defensive adjustments?  Maybe the chemistry is off...  Is that what you risk with such drastic change?  On the other hand, it already appears that The Bills entire offensive chemistry is off from last year.  OK... Do it Beane!  

the Bills resigned Dawkins so he is going nowhere IMO. Otherwise Im strapped in awaiting the NFL draft and may they pick a mean Ugly or two............I wouldnt be upset.

3 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

1. Morse was overpaid from the beginning but he is serviceable as a pass blocker.

2. Everyone knows this so why is Daboll and McD asking him to do things he can't. There are plenty of undersized centers that have done well with zone blocking schemes and superstar QBs. Bring in Jeff Saturday as a special consultant.

3. They should have drafted OG/C last year. Now there are too many holes on the line to fix them all. Keeping Morse for one more year makes sense so they can address the guard spots.

 

This regime really sucks at OL talent evaluation.  Beane made an average center the highest paid in the league. They let go of Teller. And Ford is a massive bust. 

 

I have no faith this regime will make the right moves

Yeah say u have  No Faith in McB decisions  Ethan? Probably more McD decisions at this point of the season...anyway  Im not cherry picking that 1 thing to be a jerk  but if you really think that way things are much more dire that I thought *cringe*

Edited December 10, 2021 by Muppy

[RoyBatty is alive]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

Maybe we should draft Creed Humphrey in the 2nd round!!  What a steal that would be!!  Oh wait.  

How many times do you need to bring this up?

[transplantbillsfan]

Yeah I read the article and agree.

 

The OL has an identity problem.  It seems like McDermott wants grinders, but that's not what Morse is.  Ryan Bates wants to be a Center in the NFL and this regime seems to like him a lot.

 

Why not give him a shot moving forward?

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

How many times do you need to bring this up?

398 more times should suffice.  

[colin]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Morse is very similar in style to Eric Wood.

 

Wood was terrible in the power run game under Marrone.    Might as well have been wearing skates on the field on run downs.

 

The switch to the inside zone attack under Greg Roman resuscitated his career.    

 

With less physical, athletic lineman you want them to be blocking the edges of defenders instead of trying to push their whole body weight off the LOS.

 

 

you know, this makes me think: what's dabol's blocking philosophy?  we ran spain and teller out of there, who have done better than anything we have going on right now.  does what he wants to do in the passing game (wr's all over the joint, josh playing super man) fit w the blocking scheme on O?

 

i think daboll is just not in anyway a complete OC.  he doesn't have cohesive ideas on what to do, even within his own play design and practice schedule.

 

greg roman runs really simple passing schemes, but his running and blocking always puts the O in advantage situations.  reid is a mad genius, but his teams always know what they want to do blocking wise.

 

I remember kevin gilbride getting some heat for very simple blocking schemes, and he frustrated just about every team he was on (save the 2 chip winning giant team), but they got good results running and passing.

 

i really think our O has gotten stats from some great wr and qb play, which has covered up for just a poorly designed and coached scheme.  dabol's history prior to 2020, and the past 6 games bear that out, and is far and away the bulk of his career.

[BuffaloRebound]

If Morse is so athletic and a good pass blocker, why not kick him outside to Left Tackle?  Seems like Dawkins would be better suited inside at his current shape anyway.  

[RoyBatty is alive]

18 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Yeah I read the article and agree.

 

The OL has an identity problem.  It seems like McDermott wants grinders, but that's not what Morse is.  Ryan Bates wants to be a Center in the NFL and this regime seems to like him a lot.

 

Why not give him a shot moving forward?

What makes you think he wants grinders on the O Line, I dont see any evidence of that.

[TheCockSportif]

Just now, RoyBatty is alive said:

What makes you think he wants grinders on the O Line, I dont see any evidence of that.

Maybe someone has seen his app?

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, colin said:

 

you know, this makes me think: what's dabol's blocking philosophy?  we ran spain and teller out of there, who have done better than anything we have going on right now.  does what he wants to do in the passing game (wr's all over the joint, josh playing super man) fit w the blocking scheme on O?

 

i think daboll is just not in anyway a complete OC.  he doesn't have cohesive ideas on what to do, even within his own play design and practice schedule.

 

greg roman runs really simple passing schemes, but his running and blocking always puts the O in advantage situations.  reid is a mad genius, but his teams always know what they want to do blocking wise.

 

I remember kevin gilbride getting some heat for very simple blocking schemes, and he frustrated just about every team he was on (save the 2 chip winning giant team), but they got good results running and passing.

 

i really think our O has gotten stats from some great wr and qb play, which has covered up for just a poorly designed and coached scheme.  dabol's history prior to 2020, and the past 6 games bear that out, and is far and away the bulk of his career.

 

 

I think Daboll wanted to be more of a man blocking run offense initially.    But they decided mid-season last year that their passing offense was more streamlined using outside zone,  which involves less complicated line calls.

 

So they've changed plans since he got here.

 

Problem is........that challenges Beane and the personnel department to have the right kinds of players in place.

 

Still.......the problems have been greatly magnified by the entire OL..........SAVE for Morse.........playing worse than expected for various reasons (poor preparation, injury, covid ignorance etc..).

 

Getting the OL prepared falls on Bobby Johnson so I'd be surprised if this season ends short of a SB and he isn't fired.   If the offensive lineman aren't preparing well.......at the facility or in the offseason.........that still falls on the guy who is in charge of monitoring them year round.

 

I've never understood what compelled McDermott to even take the chance of switching the Bills rush offense from the inside zone approach they used to great success in the Roman/Lynn seasons.   Said it then.......that was a very dumb decision.......and it is costing them even now.    They had an identity in that aspect of the game and they had players who could execute that style at a high level.   Just a matter of keeping the cupboard stocked when you have a system that works.

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

That seems to be Brandon's MO.  He was building a passing team.  He found a QB, some good wideouts, and some journeymen linemen who were typically better at pass pro then road grading.  

 

That hasn't worked out real well.  They OL still isn't great at protections and sucks at creating push in short yardage situations or opening holes.   

 

I hope Beane rethinks things.

 

Maybe its overly dramatic but I tend to like the Chiefs solution to the same problem: Get a whole new OL.

I don't know about a whole new line, but I think your analysis is correct.  Beane and McDermott underestimated the increasing importance of being able to run with power when you need to.    The league is changing, as it always does.  

 

I also think, however, that the coaches bear some of the responsibility here.   There has to be a running style, from an offensive line point of view, that can be at least somewhat effective with the guys they have.   All they need to do is make SOMETHING work somewhat well, not so much that the Bills win by strictly running the ball, but enough success at some kind of running game that troubles the defense.   If finesse is what they're built for, let's see some finesse.  Where are the complex pulling schemes, the traps, and the misdirections?   

[transplantbillsfan]

11 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

What makes you think he wants grinders on the O Line, I dont see any evidence of that.

 

Well when asked about fixing the running game this week... here's what he said... and the last 2 sentences to me are evidence that he doesn't want a finesse running team:

 

“We’re gonna try our darndest to fix it. It’s tough. I’m not gonna sit up here and lie to you guys. To fix that part of your game this time of year is tough,” he said. “That’s why we try like heck to do it in training camp. That’s where you develop the toughness of the football team. That’s why we run the football in training camp.”

[Dablitzkrieg]

I hate all 5 of put offensive lineman, most of the time.  They suck and piss me the hell off.  There, I said it🤣

[FilthyBeast]

Hindsight is always 20/20 but boy would Creed Humphrey look good in a Bills uniform right now.

 

Too bad we have a GM that is completely clueless when it comes to evaluating the trenches.