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Who would be our Steve Bartman or Bill Buckner

bighorn_zilla

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bighorn_zilla

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Long time reader, First Time writer. 

 

In connection with some talk about “running the table” and being the number 1 seed in the AFC, my mind made a greater leap – I know “getting way ahead of myself” – to winning the super bowl and what it would feel like.  For context, I have been a fan since 1967 and am old enough to remember nearly the Bills entire history. 

 

With that said, I started thinking about other franchises in similar situations, the Cubs ending the 108-year drought or the Boston Red Sox and the 86-year period of futility from 1918 to 2004 and how their fans reacted.  In the case of each referenced franchise, as part of their celebrations, each "forgave" someone - the Cubs “forgave” Steve Bartman and the Sox “forgave” Bill Buckner. 

 

In case of my great leap, to me, the obvious response for the Bills would be player Scott Norwood.  But I would like to read TBD’s responses – it can be a player (Tom Demsey failing to break the Dolphin streak, Ronnie Harmon for dropping Kelly’s pass in the endzone), fan (the dude who slide off the upper deck), coach (Wade Phillips for getting over run by the owner with the Flutie/Johnson thing), owner, GM, event.  Who or What would you "forgive?"

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CSBill All Pro

CSBill

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3 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

I don't have anything against either of these guys, but my two nominees are Scott Norwood (obviously) and Bruce DeHaven (cover the kickoff).  Those two gentlemen headline a cast of characters that I associate with bad memories as a Bills fan.  

 

These two have to be the finalists, but because of the significance of the game, Norwood is the easy winner (or it that loser?).

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jwhit34 RFA

jwhit34

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Has to be Norwood, best alignment with Buckner. Buckner makes the play, series is over. Norwood makes the kick, Bills win Super Bowl. Buckner's play was more routine vs. a 47 yard FG but it's a very makeable kick. 

 

Norwood was only 37-61 for his career from 40-49 yards (61%). I was surprised to see Christie was only 67% (77-115) for career though 70.4% for Bills. Even Rian Lindell was only 68% for the Bills and 67% for his career from 40-49. 

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Motorin' Veteran

Motorin'

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

Respectfully,  I can’t help but read the above and think along the lines of, “Yeah, yeah, I know Hitler started WW 2, but besides him why did that thing get going?”

 

 

In short...

 

 

It.

 

Is.

 

Scott.

 

Norwood.

 

 

 

There's no doubt it's wide right... Anyone else notice the Cowboys missed a 47 yard fg wide right on Thursday?

Edited by Motorin'
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May Day 10 All Pro

May Day 10

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Its Norwood 100%.

 

His name is linked to the team in the consciousness of every sports fan.  

 

While most Bills fans do not hold any ill will toward Norwood...  There would be a storyline nationally of Norwood's spirit being free if the Bills won the Superbowl.  

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IgotBILLStopay Veteran

IgotBILLStopay

Posted
Posted
18 minutes ago, bighorn_zilla said:

Long time reader, First Time writer. 

 

In connection with some talk about “running the table” and being the number 1 seed in the AFC, my mind made a greater leap – I know “getting way ahead of myself” – to winning the super bowl and what it would feel like.  For context, I have been a fan since 1967 and am old enough to remember nearly the Bills entire history. 

 

With that said, I started thinking about other franchises in similar situations, the Cubs ending the 108-year drought or the Boston Red Sox and the 86-year period of futility from 1918 to 2004 and how their fans reacted.  In the case of each referenced franchise, as part of their celebrations, each "forgave" someone - the Cubs “forgave” Steve Bartman and the Sox “forgave” Bill Buckner. 

 

In case of my great leap, to me, the obvious response for the Bills would be player Scott Norwood.  But I would like to read TBD’s responses – it can be a player (Tom Demsey failing to break the Dolphin streak, Ronnie Harmon for dropping Kelly’s pass in the endzone), fan (the dude who slide off the upper deck), coach (Wade Phillips for getting over run by the owner with the Flutie/Johnson thing), owner, GM, event.  Who or What would you "forgive?"

nice first post. welcome to TBD.

 

There gave been several goats (Norwood, Harmon, the ref who made the incorrect call on the Home Run Throw Forward, the McKelvin fumble, even the beloved Jim Kelly for his 4 stupid interceptions in a 37-24 loss in SB XXVI). 

 

To me the most egregious goats were the Tragedy in Tennessee Ref and the McKelvin fumble on MNF opening week that killed the entire season for me (I mean what's he thinking?). I will likely never forgive these two even if we win 10 superbowls. 

 

But I will forgive (maybe I already have)  Norwood. Just because of the stage, it might have been the play with the biggest impact. But I do feel sorry for the guy. He had never made a 47 yarder on grass ever. So it was not a gimme by any means.  I think he lives in Buffalo now and I remember a game where he was honored. 

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Rocket94 Veteran

Rocket94

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

There's no doubt it's wide right... Anyone else notice the Cowboys 8missed a 47 yard fg wide right on Thursday?

Wide right was very significant...that was a game that the Bills should have won. They would have had a place in history.

Edited by Rocket94
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Chandler#81 Hall of Famer

Chandler#81

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Posted
45 minutes ago, bighorn_zilla said:

Long time reader, First Time writer. 

 

In connection with some talk about “running the table” and being the number 1 seed in the AFC, my mind made a greater leap – I know “getting way ahead of myself” – to winning the super bowl and what it would feel like.  For context, I have been a fan since 1967 and am old enough to remember nearly the Bills entire history. 

 

With that said, I started thinking about other franchises in similar situations, the Cubs ending the 108-year drought or the Boston Red Sox and the 86-year period of futility from 1918 to 2004 and how their fans reacted.  In the case of each referenced franchise, as part of their celebrations, each "forgave" someone - the Cubs “forgave” Steve Bartman and the Sox “forgave” Bill Buckner. 

 

In case of my great leap, to me, the obvious response for the Bills would be player Scott Norwood.  But I would like to read TBD’s responses – it can be a player (Tom Demsey failing to break the Dolphin streak, Ronnie Harmon for dropping Kelly’s pass in the endzone), fan (the dude who slide off the upper deck), coach (Wade Phillips for getting over run by the owner with the Flutie/Johnson thing), owner, GM, event.  Who or What would you "forgive?"

Whippersnapper ?

Kemp’s errant endzone pass that Johnny Robinson returned all the way for a TD in the ‘66 title game.

 

P.S. Oldtimers use eyeglasses, not bigger font.?

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billsfan1959 Veteran

billsfan1959

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I believe it has to be Scott Norwood. If he makes a tough, but very makeable 47 yard FG, the Bills not only win the Super Bowl, but, IMO, impacts the team in following three Super Bowls, from a psychological perspective - particularly the last two. 

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DrDawkinstein Hall of Famer

DrDawkinstein

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Norwood is the obvious and easy target.

 

He doesnt deserve it, but it would be him. He was automatic for years, and then goes and misses an easy one in our most "winnable" Super Bowl which set the losing tone for the next 3. Even if we had just won only that first Super Bowl, the team and franchise would be looked at completely differently.

 

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thurst44 RFA

thurst44

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Posted
7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Norwood is the obvious and easy target.

 

He doesnt deserve it, but it would be him. He was automatic for years, and then goes and misses an easy one in our most "winnable" Super Bowl which set the losing tone for the next 3. Even if we had just won only that first Super Bowl, the team and franchise would be looked at completely differently.

 

This fits b/c to a certain degree, Bartman and Buckner, and for the most part every major scapegoat, does not really deserve the scorn. In Bartman's case there were many people going for the ball and it's not his fault that the Cubs blew a very large lead after Bartman "interfered." On the other hand, Buckner's error came after the Red Sox had already blown a lead they shouldn't have and has overshadowed the wild pitch thrown by Bob Stanley which allowed the Mets to tie the game. It's made even sadder by the fact that Buckner had been playing through immense pain and to paraphrase Dante Hicks, "wasn't even supposed to be there", as it was standard for Dave Stapleton to come in as a defensive replacement in the 9th inning, but McNamara wanted Buckner, as a veteran who had played for the Cubs and Sox and had never been in the World Series before to be on the field to experience the final out. 

 

I was annoyed when Levy did not try another play (maybe a hitch to Thurman or a TE on the sideline) to get them closer and more safely in Norwood's range, so I never really saw the fairness in blaming Norwood for missing a kick that was at the edge of his ability, and of that of most kickers. If Kelly was under pressure and threw a pass in the endzone just off the fingertips of a diving James Lofton as time expired, would either have been considered the "goat"? If it was, say, a 54-yard field goal, would he still be the "goat"? However, all that being said, the miss was the closest this team has ever got to the NFL's ultimate goal, so even if it's not really fair, for the purposes of this thought experiment, one would have to say he fits the bill. 

 

FWIW, one could argue that Thurman's fumble in Super Bowl XXVIII was more egregious as they were leading when it happened and it changed the trajectory of the game, but there seems to be a consensus that it was more a factor of the team having no confidence after three losses, and that they looked as if they had already given up hope during halftime, even with a 13-7 lead.

 

(And was I the only one who had flashbacks watching an interminable halftime performance with the Bills having a 13-7 lead over the Cowboys -- to a degree, I blame awful country music for the Bills lack of a Super Bowl trophy.)

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Tisker A Tasker Practice Squad

Tisker A Tasker

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1 hour ago, May Day 10 said:

Its Norwood 100%.

 

His name is linked to the team in the consciousness of every sports fan.  

 

While most Bills fans do not hold any ill will toward Norwood...  There would be a storyline nationally of Norwood's spirit being free if the Bills won the Superbowl.  

 

I mean, we already forgave him. In 1991. I think we're all set here.

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/niagara-square-bills-rally-january-28-1991-12536514

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thurst44 RFA

thurst44

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9 minutes ago, skibum said:

Ronnie Harmon's drop is far more deserving of the title, but nobody outside the Bills fan base remembers that play. Norwood will be remembered far and wide for a long, long time. It's not fair, but Norwood is the guy. 

What I'm amazed at is that I've never heard anyone even suggest that there was more to Harmon's drop, given his history of suspicion of fixing games. I'm sure it was just a dropped pass, but...

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MJS Hall of Famer

MJS

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Scott Norwood was received back in Buffalo with applause and forgiveness. None of the players or coaches blamed him. He continued to play for the Bills.

 

I just don't think he was wronged in any way or that there is any bad blood. No forgiveness needed from either side.

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Steve O Veteran

Steve O

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, skibum said:

Ronnie Harmon's drop is far more deserving of the title, but nobody outside the Bills fan base remembers that play. Norwood will be remembered far and wide for a long, long time. It's not fair, but Norwood is the guy. 

What people forget is that the touchdown before the drop Norwood missed the extra point, or we could have tied the game with a field goal in spite of the drop. Think he missed a field goal or two that day as well, in a Dr office now, no time to check.

Edit: Norwood didn't miss any field goals that game, 1/1. Still, as pointed out on pg 3, if he had made the extra point a field goal would have sent the game in to overtime. Had we gone on to win, Harmon's drop would have been forgotten long ago rather than be his legacy moment.

Edited by Steve O
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corta765 Veteran

corta765

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2 hours ago, thurst44 said:

FWIW, one could argue that Thurman's fumble in Super Bowl XXVIII was more egregious as they were leading when it happened and it changed the trajectory of the game, but there seems to be a consensus that it was more a factor of the team having no confidence after three losses, and that they looked as if they had already given up hope during halftime, even with a 13-7 lead.

 

I have heard this before and I think Aikman even said as the Bills went into half time they looked down. I get the history of the 3 SB losses prior but for those who watched the game did it feel defeating that Buffalo only had a 13-6 lead on Dallas into half? Did they leave points on the field that made it feel like they already played with too much fire? The fumble seemed to crystallize the fears, but the halftime portion is decidedly worse if it was that obvious.

 

Also I've heard people rip on Jim for not playing well but if memory serves correctly from what I have learned SB 25 he was fine not great, 26 he actually seemed prepared his entire team around him couldn't do a think from dropped bobbled passes etc.., 27 injured not sure how you judge that, and 28 he was bad. Anyone dispute those descriptions?

Edited by corta765
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Mr. WEO Hall of Famer

Mr. WEO

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1 hour ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

If somehow Croom can rejoin this team it would be Croom. 

 

Croom is joined to this team at the hip (or pelvis).

 

Anyway, both those Red Sox and those Cubs had a subsequent game/chance to win those championships.  They blew them too.

 

 

Losers gonna lose....

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Augie Hall of Famer

Augie

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I think there is one clear answer, but I forgive them all and choose to look forward. I currently like our future much more than most of our past, though I enjoy it all! The good, the bad, and the ridiculously ugly!  

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Jobot RFA

Jobot

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3 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

I believe it has to be Scott Norwood. If he makes a tough, but very makeable 47 yard FG, the Bills not only win the Super Bowl, but, IMO, impacts the team in following three Super Bowls, from a psychological perspective - particularly the last two. 

 

What if making the kick had the opposite reaction.  Bills go into a superbowl hangover, miss the playoffs next year, slowly decline, never build up the amazing fan base that resulted from 4 consecutive super bowl appearances... Eventually there isn't enough fan base to support the team and the Bills get moved!

 

Beware the butterfly effect!

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Orlando Tim All Pro

Orlando Tim

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7 hours ago, skibum said:

Ronnie Harmon's drop is far more deserving of the title, but nobody outside the Bills fan base remembers that play. Norwood will be remembered far and wide for a long, long time. It's not fair, but Norwood is the guy. 

You set the question almost as two separate questions- to Bills fans Ronnie Harmon is much more the problem but to non Bills fans it is definitely Norwood.

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