Dawson Knox needs to go....now.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

9 hours ago, MDH said:

The dude is an athletic freak at the position. Keep letting him develop and ignore the irrational takes.

 

Imagine if the Bills were just as impatient with Allen as people here are asking to do with Knox.  He could be gone by now.  Granted he shown more improvement in first two years than Knox has, but also parallels in that both had huge physical skills, but limited experience coming out and have needed time to develop.

 

Well Kroft is a FA so will be interesting to see right there what the team thinks of Knox, if they go out an sign a better option or resign Kroft or do something else.  Looking at the list of FA's, Hunter Henry and Jared Cook are the only two names I see on the list that are decent players that should be an improvement unless they want Gronk.  There's a couple other names slightly better than Tyler Kroft so not much improvement there may as well, resign Kroft in that case.  To me drafting a rookie isn't likely going to help as they  are ready to win now.  They say TE is one of the longer positions to learn so likely Knox would still beat out a rookie next season.

[T master]

Norman definitely he's taking up a roster spot that could have a younger player for less money developing them for the Bills future i get why McD brought him in for the veteran presence in the locker room and all but the what they are getting for the money not sure that i would rather have a different player in his place .

 

Good dude i have totally changed my mind set on him from what it was when he was talking trash about JA a couple yrs ago but they could still get a better bang for their buck with another player rather than being the high light of your season being a straight arm from DH on ESPN . 

 

That was really good though 😜.

[Hebert19]

Knox slowly starting to contribute though and blocks tough. 

[SCBills]

I think Knox is starting to play pretty well.  The fumble obviously wasn't ideal, but I'm not going to let that wipe away the fact that he's been looking like a solid TE for a few weeks now. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Just now, SCBills said:

I think Knox is starting to play pretty well.  The fumble obviously wasn't ideal, but I'm not going to let that wipe away the fact that he's been looking like a solid TE for a few weeks now. 

I think we're seeing a bit of an overreaction because he had that 'drop' on the deep ball just before the fumble so it was back to back plays of screaming KNOX at the TV lol.  That looked like a tough catch on that deep ball though 

[thenorthremembers]

Right now Knox has one play.  Catch it wide open on the sideline and try to stiff arm his way up the field.   After the PI on the goal line I kept thinking I was so glad the Steelers held him because it is essentially 50/50 whether the guy will come down with the ball on routine catches, and that wasnt a routine catch. 

 

They need to update the Tight End position if they can in the offseason. 

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Right now Knox has one play.  Catch it wide open on the sideline and try to stiff arm his way up the field.   After the PI on the goal line I kept thinking I was so glad the Steelers held him because it is essentially 50/50 whether the guy will come down with the ball on routine catches, and that wasnt a routine catch. 

 

They need to update the Tight End position if they can in the offseason. 

Agreed.  Update, as in add another TE to compete with knox or start. Our salary cap situation is begging our FO to sign a minimal $ TE or draft one in rds 4 (if we get one)-7.  Our offense is pretty good with knox as our starter.  We don’t necessarily NEED a an upgrade at TE if we can keep this intact and upgrade elsewhere.  Knox is serviceable and ascending.

[Victory Formation]

I think Knox has been bad.. The frustrating thing about him though is he flashes an elite skill set.. That’s one position on offense that needs a major rehaul.. Drops are killer for an offense.. Too many balls hit his hands and he just drops them.. Sure, I’d keep him around because his contract is cheap and hope that it all comes together for him but we desperately need a quality TE that is a bit more dependable.. I liked Sweeney a lot, too bad he didn’t see the field this year.. but other than that, I don’t care too much if Smith or Kroft goes..

[Einstein's Dog]

26 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I think Knox is starting to play pretty well.  The fumble obviously wasn't ideal, but I'm not going to let that wipe away the fact that he's been looking like a solid TE for a few weeks now. 

I agree with you.  Knox is improving and it is showing in a longer view.

 

On a side note, it is really advantageous from a long range perspective to develop and play your draft picks.  It's how you can sustain good/great teams over a period of time.  Also having continuity increases the odds of continued success.

 

You don't go out and try and trade/buy an Ertz over keeping Smoke and Knox.

[Success]

I'm a Knox fan.  When he had that fumble, everyone was like "here we go again," but that could happen to anyone.  It was kind of a tough catch in traffic, and he tried to salvage it - it was bad luck that the ball didn't hit the ground.

 

He's really fun to watch when he gets the ball, though - he just stays on his feet and keeps fighting.  He's still a pretty young player.  I feel like he could become one of those x factors as we start to make more playoff appearances going forward.

 

[ganesh]

49 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Right now Knox has one play.  Catch it wide open on the sideline and try to stiff arm his way up the field.   After the PI on the goal line I kept thinking I was so glad the Steelers held him because it is essentially 50/50 whether the guy will come down with the ball on routine catches, and that wasnt a routine catch. 

 

They need to update the Tight End position if they can in the offseason. 

The ball just missed his hands...That would have been a TD if the DB had not interfered.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

11 hours ago, Kwai San said:

OK....after his crazy fumble I was ready to go thru my TV screen.  But as I thought it through in years past that play would have been the downward spiral of the Bills to a horrific loss.  Perhaps Knox can stay perhaps not - he tried to atone for his error rather well.

 

Bottom line these Bills are real, the real deal.  America is seeing this.  This Saturday presents another opportunity to show the world - Bills are the real deal.

 

Meanwhile......Knox can go, along with Norman.....see yourselves out the door genitals.......

He's athletic enough, but he isn't very good.

 

The drops, his field awareness, injury history. 

 

Tight End is still a hole on this roster. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Straight Hucklebuck

[papazoid]

knox is a horrible blocker and a mediocre receiver.....bills must upgrade

[Wsam4031]

11 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Please stop.  This is a ridiculous take

Why is it ridiculous? I think Kroft should be starting and wouldnt be upset if they let knox walk. Dude is just unreliable. Fumbles, easy drops etc. tight ends are supposed to be reliable and hes just not

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, Wsam4031 said:

Why is it ridiculous? I think Kroft should be starting and wouldnt be upset if they let knox walk. Dude is just unreliable. Fumbles, easy drops etc. tight ends are supposed to be reliable and hes just not

Nobody can argue with this. 

 

Knox is athletic enough to be on the field, but unreliable is the right word. 

 

His instincts for the game are below average, he drops the ball, the fumbles, and injuries. 

 

Keep him in the rotation, but the Bills need a starter, Knox has had plenty of chances to establish himself against a weak positional group and hasn't done it. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

I think Knox is starting to play pretty well.  The fumble obviously wasn't ideal, but I'm not going to let that wipe away the fact that he's been looking like a solid TE for a few weeks now. 

 

It's so up and down. And they really are extreme ups and downs.

 

The bad drops, the fumbles...

 

Then a couple good, redeeming plays.

 

I dont know. I guess keep him around next year while he is still on a rookie deal, but he better show some improvement between the ears.

[starrymessenger]

19 minutes ago, ganesh said:

The ball just missed his hands...That would have been a TD if the DB had not interfered.

 

...and if he had caught it. I get that he has all the measurables but if his hands are bad as a project he's a waste of time. I always felt that Allen would develop accuracy as a passer. I'm less confident that a player can learn to have good hands. Either you've got them or you don't. Also he is not a great blocker. Whiffs a lot. Bills have not underinvested in the TE and RB positions - 3 third round picks and moved up for Knox- but so far the return is not commensurate with the investment. This offence would be on a par with KC's if those guys could better contribute. They need to step up.

[thenorthremembers]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Agreed.  Update, as in add another TE to compete with knox or start. Our salary cap situation is begging our FO to sign a minimal $ TE or draft one in rds 4 (if we get one)-7.  Our offense is pretty good with knox as our starter.  We don’t necessarily NEED a an upgrade at TE if we can keep this intact and upgrade elsewhere.  Knox is serviceable and ascending.

Yes.  However, if you're sitting in the 2nd round and Pat Freiermuth is sitting there I think you make the pick.    This year's draft is top heavy at Tight End.   If you want to make a move that wont cost a lot of money you do it there.   I understand Knox has talent, but his output is akin to someone like Jeremy Sprinkle.   He is going into year three next year, and he hasnt shown enough to this point to even consider warranting a second contract.

 

Worst case scenario Knox continues to be inconsistent and you have Freiermuth as a long term starter.  Best case scenario Knox blossoms and you have two great options at tight end.

Edited December 14, 2020 by thenorthremembers

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I’ve said this before, the TE position takes longer to develop than any other position for some reason. I’m guessing they need to know it all, blocking assignments, route running, play book and probably a few more things. My take on Knox is that I feel like he will improve all parts of his game and will be a good TE. He is a average blocker but has elite athletic ability. I see him becoming a solid to good TE next year.

[DaggersEOD]

People have been mentioning how great Mike Gesicki is this year, but they don't known that he wasn't very good at all before this year.

 

I think Knox just needs more time to develop.

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It's so up and down. And they really are extreme ups and downs.

 

The bad drops, the fumbles...

 

Then a couple good, redeeming plays.

 

I dont know. I guess keep him around next year while he is still on a rookie deal, but he better show some improvement between the ears.

 

Yea, that's where i'm at.  He has so much potential and is on a rookie contract.  With Allen's upcoming contract, we can't spend everywhere.. Focus on OL/WR and make due with the guys we draft and develop at TE/RB.

[Kwai San]

34 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

He's athletic enough, but he isn't very good.

 

The drops, his field awareness, injury history. 

 

Tight End is still a hole on this roster. 

 

Thank you!  You would have thought I shot JA the way some people are overacting....

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Yes.  However, if you're sitting in the 2nd round and Pat Freiermuth is sitting there I think you make the pick.    This year's draft is top heavy at Tight End.   If you want to make a move that wont cost a lot of money you do it there.   I understand Knox has talent, but his output is akin to someone like Jeremy Sprinkle.   He is going into year three next year, and he hasnt shown enough to this point to even consider warranting a second contract.

 

Worst case scenario Knox continues to be inconsistent and you have Freiermuth as a long term starter.  Best case scenario Knox blossoms and you have two great options at tight end.

30 mill in cap space-  we have to: 

 

-resign/replace Matt milano.

-resign/replace Daryl Williams

-resign/replace Jon Feliciano

-resign/replace Levi wallace

-resign/replace Josh Norman (won’t be hard)

-figure out LG (Ford, resign boettger?)

-will Mitch Morse be able to continue?

-John Brown has one year left.

-edmunds is a year closer to getting paid or do we replace him?

-does knox take the starting spot and run with it or continue dropping passes?

 

-Along the DL, we can part ways or keep:  butler, Jefferson, Addison, Hughes.

 

-Hyde has one year left.  We don’t want to lose him.
 

-JA is going to be paid 35-40 mill a year.  

 

Lots of HUGE decisions looming as we’re about to pay our QB BIG bucks.  This years 2nd rd pick is going to be a huge resource going forward. 4 year deal making a mill a year.  Drafting future starters  in rds 1-3 will be paramount in this teams future

[Bangarang]

12 minutes ago, DaggersEOD said:

People have been mentioning how great Mike Gesicki is this year, but they don't known that he wasn't very good at all before this year.

 

I think Knox just needs more time to develop.

Gesicki has improved each year. Knox hasn’t and still struggles to catch the ball. 
 

The next draft is going to be strong at TE. Knox should be on notice.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Bangarang

[thenorthremembers]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

30 mill in cap space-  we have to: 

 

-resign/replace Matt milano.

-resign/replace Daryl Williams

-resign/replace Jon Feliciano

-resign/replace Levi wallace

-resign/replace Josh Norman (won’t be hard)

-figure out LG (Ford, resign boettger?)

-will Mitch Morse be able to continue?

-John Brown has one year left.

-edmunds is a year closer to getting paid or do we replace him?

-does knox take the starting spot and run with it or continue dropping passes?

 

-Along the DL, we can part ways or keep:  butler, Jefferson, Addison, Hughes.

 

-Hyde has one year left.  We don’t want to lose him.
 

-JA is going to be paid 35-40 mill a year.  

 

Lots of HUGE decisions looming as we’re about to pay our QB BIG bucks.  This years 2nd rd pick is going to be a huge resource going forward. 4 year deal making a mill a year.  Drafting future starters  in rds 1-3 will be paramount in this teams future

Its going to be very tough I agree.

 

I think you end up seeing a lot of turn over along the defensive and offensive lines.  

[Teddy KGB]

17 minutes ago, DaggersEOD said:

People have been mentioning how great Mike Gesicki is this year, but they don't known that he wasn't very good at all before this year.

 

I think Knox just needs more time to develop.

Nope, was easy to see Gesecki was the man back at Penn state 

11 hours ago, JY422 said:

Stop. Knox is not a world beater by any stretch but he is consistent as a blocker 

when did he start becoming a consistent blocker ?   

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, DaggersEOD said:

People have been mentioning how great Mike Gesicki is this year, but they don't known that he wasn't very good at all before this year.

 

I think Knox just needs more time to develop.

 

The lack of off-season, the injuries, and the time on the Covid list surely haven't helped Knox.

 

But I think Gesiki was the more polished TE coming out of college, and he has had a higher catch % and lower drops than Knox.

[DaggersEOD]

7 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Gesicki has improved each year. Knox hasn’t and still struggles to catch the ball. 
 

The next draft is going to be strong at TE. Knox should be on notice.

 

Absolutely not disagreeing with you on any point and in a strong TE class, we have an opportunity to strengthen the position and we should (will?)

 

I just think that he is very raw and needs more time than others with a higher floor but lower ceiling.

 

I know we always talk about the DK/Ford pick, but I was surprised we passed on him because it seems like McD puts a lot of value in physical freaks (Allen, Edmunds), even if they're raw.

 

I think Knox falls into this category.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Gesicki has improved each year. Knox hasn’t and still struggles to catch the ball.

 

I guess that depends on how you define improvement?  Gesicki's catch % plummeted his 2nd year.

 

Even with all his struggles this season, Knox catch % is up and his drop % down.

[Solomon Grundy]

47 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

Yes.  However, if you're sitting in the 2nd round and Pat Freiermuth is sitting there I think you make the pick.    This year's draft is top heavy at Tight End.   If you want to make a move that wont cost a lot of money you do it there.   I understand Knox has talent, but his output is akin to someone like Jeremy Sprinkle.   He is going into year three next year, and he hasnt shown enough to this point to even consider warranting a second contract.

 

Worst case scenario Knox continues to be inconsistent and you have Freiermuth as a long term starter.  Best case scenario Knox blossoms and you have two great options at tight end.

I dunno. I think in 1-2 rds Bills need to focus on CB, LB. I'm looking at Charlie Kolar in 3rd. Big target with nice catch radius and better than adaquate blocker. Freiermuth injury might scare me. Kolar can be Jason Witten like. Not dynamic, but reliable chain mover with ability to make plays. Kenny Yeboah may be there in 3rd too

[Kwai San]

39 minutes ago, NewEra said:

30 mill in cap space-  we have to: 

 

-resign/replace Matt milano.

-resign/replace Daryl Williams

-resign/replace Jon Feliciano

-resign/replace Levi wallace

-resign/replace Josh Norman (won’t be hard)

-figure out LG (Ford, resign boettger?)

-will Mitch Morse be able to continue?

-John Brown has one year left.

-edmunds is a year closer to getting paid or do we replace him?

-does knox take the starting spot and run with it or continue dropping passes?

 

-Along the DL, we can part ways or keep:  butler, Jefferson, Addison, Hughes.

 

-Hyde has one year left.  We don’t want to lose him.
 

-JA is going to be paid 35-40 mill a year.  

 

Lots of HUGE decisions looming as we’re about to pay our QB BIG bucks.  This years 2nd rd pick is going to be a huge resource going forward. 4 year deal making a mill a year.  Drafting future starters  in rds 1-3 will be paramount in this teams future

 

Nice write up/synopsis of the Bills going forward.  Thanks!!!

 

Agree 110% drafting rounds 1-3 are going to be HUGE.

[babulator]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Kroft is gonzo.  He's been inactive the past few weeks and is an UFA at the end of the year.

 

Im not trying to bash on Knox. I was rooting for him to succeed but I think it's clear at this point that he's not the answer. Kroft may not be here next year, but hes more reliable at this point. With so much on the line this year, a little more reliability from the position is probably a better option.

 

Idk the status of Sweeney these days, but I think its clear we need to address this in the off season either way.

 

As for the #2 cb, again we can do better, but Dane has been promising and the combination of him and Wallace doesn't lose me sleep this year. IDK if Norman stays, I could do without him for what he brings, but  McBeane will definitely want more competition here next year.

 

Go  Bills!

[BBills_88]

Be easy!!

 

He will be ok, he is just as raw as josh Allen was when he came in the league. 

 

You can see the potential.

 

I am willing to give him another year. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 minutes ago, babulator said:

Idk the status of Sweeney these days, but I think its clear we need to address this in the off season either way.

 

Season ending Covid-IR due to cardiomyopathy dx'd during screening to return

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

I'm going to need like 2 dozen donuts for this one. He's no AJ Klein

[ColoradoBills]

After Kroft walks I will bet that Knox gets another chance BUT Beane and McDermott will go the UFA route.

It won't be a big name but I would bet a lot of TEs would like a chance to play with Josh Allen.

They will wait another year before going to draft again if needed.

 

I see a journeyman TE signed for cheap.  Someone like a James O'Shaughnessy from JAX or the like.

Don't flame me it's just what I think they are going to do.  If he works out Lee Smith will be probably be gone by season start too.

[BigBuff423]

Like beating my head against the wall, as this seems to be a topic of discussion every single year. Please, for the love of God, review and research TEs over the last 20 years. There is ONE, just ONE exception that had an amazing start to their career: Hall of Famer Tony Gonzalez. While we'd all LOVE for that to be the norm for the Bills, there's a reason why it's taken a HOF to show the rare contribution from a TE in their first two years.

 

Of the great recent TEs, Kelce, Ertz and Gronk were drafted in the 2nd Round. The rest, including Witten, Gates, J. Graham, and others were all drafted in the mid to late rounds and they all took three years or more to fully realize their value in the Offense. Vernon Davis was taken 8th overall and a BUST until Harbaugh went to San Fran and resurrected Alex Smith's career. 

Kittle: 5th Round

Waller: 6th Round and bounced around teams and had personal struggles before his campaign with the Raiders

Andrews: 3rd Round

 

Much like people who wanted to cut Bass after one week, for Pete's sake people - be patient with raw / Rookie NFL players. Knox was quite raw coming into the NFL, didn't even catch a TD in college but like others Beane has Drafted, they saw the potential - so let's give it time to mature. Knox has gotten better in some ways, and still needs improvement in others. But, honestly, with his speed and toughness, and the ability to run routes and be used as he has in different situations, give Daboll and McD time to develop him. Just be patient, and allow the coaching staff to do their job. 

[dave mcbride]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I guess that depends on how you define improvement?  Gesicki's catch % plummeted his 2nd year.

 

Even with all his struggles this season, Knox catch % is up and his drop % down.

I don't mean to sound too harsh toward Knox, and this perhaps IS too harsh, but I ... kinda feel like he still could (and maybe should) have caught that goal-line pass despite being interfered with prior to the ball hitting him right in the hands. Diggs probably would have caught it.  I do realize it's tough to catch a pass with a defender whacking you before it arrives. It was a perfect throw. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by dave mcbride

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, DaggersEOD said:

People have been mentioning how great Mike Gesicki is this year, but they don't known that he wasn't very good at all before this year.

 

I think Knox just needs more time to develop.

Agreed.
 

I know it is an usual take with the way people love Gesicki, but to me he is simply a one dimensional pass catching TE.  He is a below average blocker and would not fit at all with what we are doing.

 

He is basically a big bodied WR and that is not the role they are asking of Knox in this offense.  It has also taken into his 3rd season to figure out the passing attack only in Miami.  One more year than Knox has had in Buffalo and they are asking Knox to figure out blocking assignments as an H back - a role he has never played.

 

Of course I want Knox to be better, but if you are looking at him to be Gesicki - it is the wrong comparison.  I also think you will see Sweeney return and be the extra TE to replace Kroft.

 

I do not expect a lot of resources poured into the TE position unless someone falls perfectly to them.  I think they will go into 2021 with Sweeney and Knox as the 2 starters because they can both block and get out on patters as needed.

[Buftex]

3 hours ago, DaggersEOD said:

People have been mentioning how great Mike Gesicki is this year, but they don't known that he wasn't very good at all before this year.

 

I think Knox just needs more time to develop.

I don't know if that is true.  I was coveting him last season. Was keeping my fingers crossed, with all their front office incompetence (or what seemed that way at the time) he might somehow get cut.  I can't remember the specifics now, but I remember him having a really nice game against us his rookie season, thinking "this guy could be something". Though he always looked a little small.

 

TE is just a position where it takes some time for a lot of guys to develop. Knox has had a frustrating season, no doubt.  Not arguing that we can't use an upgrade, but right now, he has more upside than any of the other guys.  Kroft definitely has better hands, but he doesn't have Knox big play potential.  This is a high powered offense...they want guys who can catch, for sure...but they also want guys who can turn short passes in to big chunks of yardage.  Knox has that potential. Luckily, this year, we have a few options in the passing game.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Buftex