Dawson Knox needs to go....now.

[zow2]

I just need to see Knox start making some contested catches.  Any of these TE's around the league can catch little screen passes.  Anytime Knox goes up against another dude, the ball bounces off his hands, it gets stripped or he mistimes his jump...  He has to show something more in that area of his game.

[BillsfaninSB]

Not giving up on Knox.  Want him around another season.  Too much potential and cheap. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, zow2 said:

I just need to see Knox start making some contested catches.  Any of these TE's around the league can catch little screen passes.  Anytime Knox goes up against another dude, the ball bounces off his hands, it gets stripped or he mistimes his jump...  He has to show something more in that area of his game.

I don’t think this is true.  Last season Knox made some clutch contested catches.  His TD pass against the Chargers was a tough catch

 

Last year it was the easy catches he struggled with

[DJB]

Been saying this since day 1.

 

Tremendous when he has the bal secured but his hands are brutal. 

 

TE is a priority upgrade this offseason. 

 

 

For the 50th time. Kyle Pitts please! (Although he will have to probably move up for him)

[WideNine]

16 hours ago, Warcodered said:

he came back some at the end but we do need a good TE.

 

This.

 

And having been "that guy" that dares to critique my team before the after glow of a win has died down, I understand the backlash to the "Now" language in the OP.

 

Knox is serviceable, but just because we won does not mean that Knox did not do what Knox has often done - that is, at least one or two key drops and/or a give away (usually the momentum swinging variety leading to opponent scores) while also handing in a few plays that showcase his potential and athleticism that has kept coaches and fans on the treadmill of thinking maybe he will break out and develop into that reliable threat.

 

The Knox giveth and the Knox taketh away

 

Either way, I think that having an elite pass-catching and blocking TE is still a need on this team - Knox has not solidified himself in that role. I do not question Knox's athleticism, his ceiling in that regard is really high, but rather his consistency at being inconsistent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BananaB]

He’s still got a lot of potential. A lot of high profiles TEs come out of the draft and take a little time to develop. 

[Doc]

Is there a TE whisperer, a la what Jordan Palmer is for Josh?

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

From awful to slightly awful?

 

I don’t think he was slightly awful.  He had a bad turnover and coulda had that deep ball catch, but the defender made a decent play on his arms.  

the DPI, while he didn’t make a catch because he was MAULET, he may have made the catch. Regardless, it put us up 2 scores.  

 

if that dpi didn’t end the game, he also had the huge 3rd and 11 conversion with around 6 minutes left where he gained 15ish yards.  The Steelers would’ve gotten the ball back with 6 minutes left and all of their TOs, down 11.  Game on.  But knoxs 1st ended the game.  The Steelers didn’t get the ball back at all.

 

I think he can make some plays if used right. Keep him running north south.  No DB really wants a price of that guy.  I’d set him up with plays like the Steelers used Samuel last night.  1-3 yard hitch and let him go maul someone.  
 

let me guess.....you think we should cut him after this season too

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, zow2 said:

I just need to see Knox start making some contested catches.  Any of these TE's around the league can catch little screen passes.  Anytime Knox goes up against another dude, the ball bounces off his hands, it gets stripped or he mistimes his jump...  He has to show something more in that area of his game.

Exactly. Most fans are tired of the drops. So he makes a nice catch then gets popped by 2 players. Ball comes out yet he has another chance at redemption. All he has to do is catch it as it falls to the ground. But he drops that too. It's not about his route running or blocking anymore. His future will depend on his hands and strength to secure the ball.

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Just don't think he's a good football player. Lacks instincts, careless with the football, loses concentration, not a good blocker at all. 

 

Like I said, only thing he has going for him is he is athletic and can out run/run over some guys when he actually gets in open space... I just don't trust him at all with the football or when he is targeted.

 

I hear ya. He’s like “sugar high Josh” of 2018 playing TE.  He’s always reminded me of Allen playing a different position. It clicked for Allen year 3.  
 

The way I see it, he has at least more years with us playing TE.  I don’t think there’s any chance that we cut him or trade him.  I think allen loves him and I want us to use him with hope that he improves.  He can be a playmaker, especially in this offense, where he’s the least of every teams worries when defending us.  He’s dangerous one on one.  As long as he holds onto the ball. 🤣  

 

[wvbillsfan]

I’m on record this handle is pro Dawson Knox 

the fumble sucked but guys fumble. He got rocked soon as he caught it. Whatever. 
The “drops” from yesterday resulted in two penalties against the Steelers. Good as a catch for me. 
 

Catch and run on a big play to close out the game. 

[HappyDays]

8 hours ago, BBills_88 said:

You can see the potential.

 

Can you? I haven't seen any potential. Being an elite athlete doesn't mean you can be a football player. He can run fast and stiff arm guys, that's it. I'd sacrifice that for a mediocre athlete that I can rely on to make basic plays.

[FireChans]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Can you? I haven't seen any potential. Being an elite athlete doesn't mean you can be a football player. He can run fast and stiff arm guys, that's it. I'd sacrifice that for a mediocre athlete that I can rely on to make basic plays.

Scott Chandler > Dawson Knox.

[LABILLBACKER]

9 hours ago, DJB said:

Been saying this since day 1.

 

Tremendous when he has the bal secured but his hands are brutal. 

 

TE is a priority upgrade this offseason. 

 

 

For the 50th time. Kyle Pitts please! (Although he will have to probably move up for him)

If we traded up a little to land Pitts I would be ecstatic. He should be the target.  I know we need a pass rusher but we've needed an elite TE for decades.

[NewEra]

On 12/13/2020 at 9:34 PM, Bangarang said:

Knox won’t see a 2nd contract in Buffalo. we’ll probably hang on to him because he’s cheap but we all know he’s not good. He’ll eventually get released and will maybe bounce around a bit before fading out of the league completely. 

That might be the case, but he’s not going to get cut by the Bills on his rookie contract.  He’s athleticism and raw physical ability is worth the chump change that we’re paying him, with hopes that it click.  We may upgrade, but I don’t think there’s any chance that we would release him

[machine gun kelly]

On 12/14/2020 at 12:02 AM, Virgil said:

Allen loves Knox and never loses faith in him.  While I agree with where you are coming from, it’s just not going to happen. 
 

With that being said, I hope they go TE in the draft and put someone out there that can stretch the field a little and make Allen give in 

I think they will Virg.  As you know, this can’t be fixed this year.  He’s cheap and probably will be depth next year behind whoever we draft.  When we have Brown back, we most likely won’t see as much of Knox.  If we see a TE down the stretch after Brown returns, it probably will be more of Smith for blocking.

[machine gun kelly]

And, there are a bunch of solid TE prospects expected to come out in the draft.

 

[Doc]

Knox isn’t going anywhere until at the earliest final cuts next pre-season. But that shouldn’t preclude them from looking for someone else in the meantime.

[Mr. WEO]

13 hours ago, BananaB said:

He’s still got a lot of potential. A lot of high profiles TEs come out of the draft and take a little time to develop. 

 

 

Maybe 4 more years of college ball would have done the trick.  

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

I think they will Virg.  As you know, this can’t be fixed this year.  He’s cheap and probably will be depth next year behind whoever we draft.  When we have Brown back, we most likely won’t see as much of Knox.  If we see a TE down the stretch after Brown returns, it probably will be more of Smith for blocking.

 

The Bills may choose to try and draft a TE, but that will depend upon what they want to do with Lee Smith more than anything.

 

Kroft is gone, but replaced by a returning Sweeney, Knox and Gilliam are here.  If they decide to retain Lee Smith - then I would expect the only TE they will be looking at is perhaps a late round flier.

 

If they decide to move on from Smith - which is possible with his contract - they might try a 2nd or 3rd round pick or a low cost FA.

 

I am not anticipating the Bills looking for a high draft pick TE because that is not a high priority need.  I think they feel they can get away with Sweeney and Knox as H-Back and in-line TEs and get enough out of them to supplement the offense.  I think they will look at positions that will be losing depth - potentially O-Line, DE, CB, LB as the top 3 draft picks. 

Now if someone falls significantly and the value is right - I could see a value pick at TE, but the chances to me seem pretty remote.  

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Maybe 4 more years of college ball would have done the trick.  

At least give him as long as Logan Thomas...

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

At least give him as long as Logan Thomas...

 

Thomas spent 4 years in college as a QB.  Knox in college was purportedly a TE.  He amassed only 37 more catches as a TE than Logan Thomas did as a QB.

 

Thomas has only 3 more starts in 5 years than Knox has in 2.    In his first 2 years, he had zero and 9 targets.  Knox has had 78 targets (13 drops at 17%).  

 

The more starts and targets a team gave Thomas the better he got.  Knox's curve, on the other hand, has a negative slope, despite plenty of opportunity on a pass happy Offense.

 

What was the point you thought you were making?

[Doc]

32 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Thomas spent 4 years in college as a QB.  Knox in college was purportedly a TE.  He amassed only 37 more catches as a TE than Logan Thomas did as a QB.

 

Thomas has only 3 more starts in 5 years than Knox has in 2.    In his first 2 years, he had zero and 9 targets.  Knox has had 78 targets (13 drops at 17%).  

 

The more starts and targets a team gave Thomas the better he got.  Knox's curve, on the other hand, has a negative slope, despite plenty of opportunity on a pass happy Offense.

 

What was the point you thought you were making?

It’s fairly obvious. I’ll harken you back to your laughable but entirely predictable “the Bills should have given Logan Thomas more time” a couple weeks ago, when you were trashing him for the 2 years when he was with the Bills. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

It’s fairly obvious. I’ll harken you back to your laughable but entirely predictable “the Bills should have given Logan Thomas more time” a couple weeks ago, when you were trashing him for the 2 years when he was with the Bills. 

 

 

 

They are giving Knox, a kid who had caught 39 passes since high school, a lot of time.  The first team to give Thomas that much work he produces.  Knox hasn't.

 

As for my comments on Thomas--they were in 2016 upon the advent of the Bills signing him off Detroit's PS (where he was a QB) and making him a TE.  My comment was that this was more evidence of the chronic abuse of the TE position on the Bills roster.  

 

"Sure--everyone is a TE!  It's not like good TEs haven't been available in the draft the past several years, yet the Bills have to overpay for free agents and look for gold on other teams' PS--for converted QBs, no less."

 

 

2018: "As for TE's, I don't think many D's would be worried about an Offense featuring  Clay/Croom/Lee/Thomas...."

 

Anyway, yeah, they signed him, made him a TE then gave him nothing to do for 2 years.  

[BITE ME]

On 12/14/2020 at 9:32 AM, Mr. WEO said:

 

When did this happen with Brown in the lineup?

 

You are probably right.  I think they need to make an improvement an get rid of Knox.  You can't beat a Travis Kelce with a Knox. Nobody is Kelce but the gap can't be that large.  Bills need a TE. With Allen as QB they should be able to get people interested in coming to Buffalo.

[Punching Bag]

21 hours ago, babulator said:

Idk the status of Sweeney these days, but I think its clear we need to address this in the off season either way.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30374985/buffalo-bills-tommy-sweeney-diagnosed-heart-condition

Quote

Sweeney began the year on the PUP list with a foot injury, but coach Sean McDermott said the second-year tight end was nearing a return when a cardiologist discovered the condition during an NFL-mandated checkup

 

Sweeney is the first NFL player known to have been diagnosed with myocarditis this season.

 

 

Out for season.

[Kwai San]

18 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

This.

 

And having been "that guy" that dares to critique my team before the after glow of a win has died down, I understand the backlash to the "Now" language in the OP.

 

Knox is serviceable, but just because we won does not mean that Knox did not do what Knox has often done - that is, at least one or two key drops and/or a give away (usually the momentum swinging variety leading to opponent scores) while also handing in a few plays that showcase his potential and athleticism that has kept coaches and fans on the treadmill of thinking maybe he will break out and develop into that reliable threat.

 

The Knox giveth and the Knox taketh away

 

Either way, I think that having an elite pass-catching and blocking TE is still a need on this team - Knox has not solidified himself in that role. I do not question Knox's athleticism, his ceiling in that regard is really high, but rather his consistency at being inconsistent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks.....

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, FUTURIST said:

 

You are probably right.  I think they need to make an improvement an get rid of Knox.  You can't beat a Travis Kelce with a Knox. Nobody is Kelce but the gap can't be that large.  Bills need a TE. With Allen as QB they should be able to get people interested in coming to Buffalo.

Since when do Tight Ends cover each other.  This is such a ridiculous take.  

[starrymessenger]

Looks to me like Sweeney is a better TE than Knox. He seems to have better hands. Unless you have good hands you simply can't play that position in the NFL. Unless you are just another down lineman that is. And Knox seems unable to do that. He's absolutely no match for defensive linemen. They just shunt him aside.

Im happy to see if he can improve and hope he can but I'm not sure that you can learn to catch a football at this level of play. 

[BITE ME]

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Since when do Tight Ends cover each other.  This is such a ridiculous take.  

 

Ridiculous comment.  If someone says you can't beat Mahomes with Tyrod Taylor that does not mean Tyrod is covering Mahomes.

 

You can't beat a team like the Chiefs if your offense is not getting productivity from the TE.  You have to have a complete offense that can put up points with the Chiefs.  We need 3 top receivers (we have them) and productivity from the TE.  We need a big target to throw to.  That was obvious in the first half of the Steelers game. You beat the Chiefs by scoring lots of points because they are going to score lots of points.

Edited December 15, 2020 by FUTURIST

[NewEra]

35 minutes ago, FUTURIST said:

 

Ridiculous comment.  If someone says you can't beat Mahomes with Tyrod Taylor that does not mean Tyrod is covering Mahomes.

 

You can't beat a team like the Chiefs if your offense is not getting productivity from the TE.  You have to have a complete offense that can put up points with the Chiefs.  We need 3 top receivers (we have them) and productivity from the TE.  We need a big target to throw to.  That was obvious in the first half of the Steelers game. You beat the Chiefs by scoring lots of points because they are going to score lots of points.

The chiefs lost 4 games last year

 

Daniel fells

jack Doyle, 

firkser and jonnu 

jimmy graham 

 

give it a rest.  You’re saying that we can’t beat the chiefs because we have Dawson Knox playing TE.  Listen to what you’re saying 

 

[NewEra]

29 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Depends. If they invest a somewhat high draft pick in a TE I could easily see Knox gone after this season. 

Time will tell

[WideNine]

I am speculating that the only reason Kroft is not getting reps in these critical games is that they are not going to resign him.

 

That, and I think they want to take a long, hard look at Knox to evaluate his development and decide if they need to invest in more competition for the position next season.

 

I would have liked seeing more of Sweeney this year...that is still a big?, but I thought he was coming on.

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by WideNine

[Doc]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

They are giving Knox, a kid who had caught 39 passes since high school, a lot of time.  The first team to give Thomas that much work he produces.  Knox hasn't.

 

As for my comments on Thomas--they were in 2016 upon the advent of the Bills signing him off Detroit's PS (where he was a QB) and making him a TE.  My comment was that this was more evidence of the chronic abuse of the TE position on the Bills roster.  

 

"Sure--everyone is a TE!  It's not like good TEs haven't been available in the draft the past several years, yet the Bills have to overpay for free agents and look for gold on other teams' PS--for converted QBs, no less."

 

 

2018: "As for TE's, I don't think many D's would be worried about an Offense featuring  Clay/Croom/Lee/Thomas...."

 

Anyway, yeah, they signed him, made him a TE then gave him nothing to do for 2 years.  

"Gave him nothing to do"?  Thomas played in 12 games each season, playing about a third of the snaps towards the mid-point of his first season with the Bills (and first season playing TE in the NFL) and about half the second season.  And despite that underwhelming group in 2018, he still did little to merit keeping him around.  

 

And looking at Thomas' season last year with the Lions, he had as many targets as Knox does so far this year and their stats are almost identical.  Might be worth waiting another year to see what he can do and then cutting bait if he shows nothing, eh?

 

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Depends. If they invest a somewhat high draft pick in a TE I could easily see Knox gone after this season. 

 

Not going to happen.  Kroft is gone.  Smith is just a blocker and who knows if Sweeney will ever be able to play again.

[without a drought]

I don't expect the Bills to go into next season thinking Knox will be the #1 TE, but at the same time I don't expect him to be let go while on his rookie deal.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I’m can’t understand how Kroft keeps losing snaps to knox.  

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

"Gave him nothing to do"?  Thomas played in 12 games each season, playing about a third of the snaps towards the mid-point of his first season with the Bills (and first season playing TE in the NFL) and about half the second season.  And despite that underwhelming group in 2018, he still did little to merit keeping him around.  

 

And looking at Thomas' season last year with the Lions, he had as many targets as Knox does so far this year and their stats are almost identical.  Might be worth waiting another year to see what he can do and then cutting bait if he shows nothing, eh?

 

 

Not going to happen.  Kroft is gone.  Smith is just a blocker and who knows if Sweeney will ever be able to play again.

 

I missed the "trashing" part I guess....

 

Anyway.  Yeah, when your big idea is to turn a QB into a TE, you need to throw him the ball, you know---to see if he's good at being a receiver.    Lee Smith (1.0) was already on the roster as a "blocking TE".   In his 1st year, he had 9 targets and after the "midpoint of his first season the with the Bills", he had not "about a third the snaps" but instead he had 30, 28 19, 33, 4 and 5% of the snaps.  He was given nothing meaningful to do.  His second year he had more snaps but only 17 targets all year.  

 

 

Knox was drafted as a TE and put in right away as such.  His value as a blocking TE was summed up with Lee Evans 2.0.......

 

[blacklabel]

Knox definitely has the ability to become a very productive player in this league. Unfortunately, injuries have hit him hard this year, and the dropsies still seem to get to him at times. I still have confidence that the kid can get it right and become a real threat for this team. 

[wjag]

Knox is growing on me.  Sure the fumble was a bit of a fluke. That 3rd down catch was a great read on his part.  The deep pass over the middle was almost caught.  I think Allen is going to stick with him.  The team obviously favors him over other options.  I expect to see that route down the seam again.  Hopefully they can work on his blitz pickup and blocking a bit.  He’s going to start flashing.  Brown coming back is going to open up more stuff too.  

[Doc]

37 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

I missed the "trashing" part I guess....

 

Anyway.  Yeah, when your big idea is to turn a QB into a TE, you need to throw him the ball, you know---to see if he's good at being a receiver.    Lee Smith (1.0) was already on the roster as a "blocking TE".   In his 1st year, he had 9 targets and after the "midpoint of his first season the with the Bills", he had not "about a third the snaps" but instead he had 30, 28 19, 33, 4 and 5% of the snaps.  He was given nothing meaningful to do.  His second year he had more snaps but only 17 targets all year.  

 

 

Knox was drafted as a TE and put in right away as such.  His value as a blocking TE was summed up with Lee Evans 2.0.......

 

Yes, because you never trash Bills players...

 

Look here.  in 2017 Thomas started playing in game 3 and from games 7-12 got about one third (call it 30% if you wish) of the snaps on offense, while in 2018 he got about 40% of the snaps.  That's hardly "nothing."  He didn't show much (his best season with them was 77 yards) and he was making a position switch from QB to TE, which rarely works, so they moved-on.  It was reasonable to do so and to say otherwise because he looks better now, 2 seasons later, is 20/20 hindsight, nothing more, nothing less.

 

And the reason he looks better now is because he's found a home with the Redskins, where he's 3rd on the team in targets because they have a dearth of talent.  With the Bills, Knox is 6th in targets because he's lower on the pecking order. 

 

But as I mentioned before, Thomas' and Knox's per target production is exactly the same.  And that holds not only for Thomas' season last year and Knox's season so far this year, but also if you compare their seasons this year, i.e., multiply Knox's receptions, yards and TDs by 2.7 (which is how many times more targets Thomas has) and you get...Thomas' production this year.  So if you like Thomas...

 

The Bills did what you wanted last year in the draft: they addressed the TE position.  The problem is that, outside of the TEs drafted in the 1st round, the rest have done little in the NFL to date.  But the Bills already spent the pick and he doesn't cost much so he's not going anywhere until at least the end of next pre-season.  Again that doesn't mean the Bills shouldn't look to upgrade, but they certainly haven't been hampered by Knox not being a top TE.