What Part of The SB Puzzle Does This Team Miss Compared to 90’s

[mannc]

10 minutes ago, Beast said:

Because the Bills were the Chiefs.

Except the Chiefs won the Super Bowl...

[BillsFanSD]

Definitely Bruce / pass rush.  We're missing that badly right now.

 

This team doesn't have a Thurman Thomas either, but nobody really does anymore -- this is just a different era of football in which the RB position isn't all that terribly important.  The days of building an offense around guys like Thurman, Barry, Marshal Faulk, etc. are pretty much over.

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

this is just a different era of football in which the RB position isn't all that terribly important.  The days of building an offense around guys like Thurman, Barry, Marshal Faulk, etc. are pretty much over.

Well, bad teams like the Giants still try to build around RBs...and at any rate, the 90s  Bills Offense was built around Jim Kelly, not Thurman Thomas.

[ALF]

Would also be nice to have a backup QB like Frank Reich.

[Big Turk]

8 hours ago, westside2 said:

Off the top of my head, I would say pass rush and running back. I would be interested to see the Bills apply some sort of variation of the K-gun. I think we have the weapons to pull it off.

 

Singletary is a stud. It's a passing league, he is not going to put up huge numbers. He will likely be between 15-20 touches a game.

 

Last year he averaged about 22 touches(19.7 rushing, 2.4 receiving) a game, this year he is averaging a little over 16(12.3 rushing, 4 receiving) a game. His workload is down in that regard but he has turned into a very good pass blocker which he struggled with last year at times.

 

His career average is 4.9 YPC and he makes defenders look silly one on one. How much better do you need him?

Edited October 8, 2020 by matter2003

[BillsPride12]

This team is a stud edge rusher away from being a legit Super Bowl contender in my opinion 

[H2o]

8 hours ago, westside2 said:

Off the top of my head, I would say pass rush and running back. I would be interested to see the Bills apply some sort of variation of the K-gun. I think we have the weapons to pull it off.

This. There is no Bruce Smith. There is no Biscuit. There is no Thurman Thomas. 

[Nihilarian]

Its not just one area that isn't quite as good as back then.

 

Bills OC Ted Marchibroda taught Jim Kelly to call his own plays and basically had the offense run the 2-min drill all game as the "hurry up". Kelly was very astute running that 2- min drill so it worked very well. Ole Ted also had the Bills run an old Redskin scheme called the "counter trey" in which the O linemen would start one way and shift the other way. Thurman and his cutbacks which few teams could stop. 

 

Yes, Thurman Thomas was a huge part of those teams as most seasons the Bills ran more than they passed the ball. Thurman was around 70% of the offense and was Marshall Faulk before Marshall Faulk. 2000 yard all around player running and catching it. 

 

The offensive line was better back then with pro bowl Will Wolford at LT and Kent Hull at center an all pro and pro bowler, pro bowler Jim Ritcher at LG. Their problem was with depth. I don't think many teams in this era (besides the Cowboys, Colts) give much credit to how important a top offensive guard is to an offense.

 

The Bills had a demon on special teams like no other team in the NFL had in 7 time pro bowler, MVP of the pro bowl, Steve Tasker. Opposing teams needed to put two players on him and he still got to the ball carrier. Why this man is not in the HoF is beyond me. 

 

Lastly, the defense. Bills GM Bill Polian built his defenses with speed on the ends with Bruce Smith and Biscuit. The Bills had two stellar pass rushers. This matters much in the same sense that you need more than one, two good WRs. The Bills this season now look like those 90's Bills with Andre Reed, Don Beebe and James Lofton with Beasley, Brown, Diggs. 

 

While the Bills had a good defense they found the best way to dominate other teams was to get a lead and unleash their hellish pass rush on poor opposing QB's. One game Bruce made Salisbury steaks out of Colts QB Sean Salisbury. Anyway, the weakness on the Bills defense was the interior defensive line and if they couldn't get a lead and the opponent ran the ball well, that defense had a much more difficult time stopping the run. 

 

Bottom line, better pass rush, better O line. Better commitment to running the ball with a power run game like the Titans have. Singletary might be enough as last season he had the very same yard per carry as Titans star RB Derrick Henry with a 5.1 yards per rushing attempt average. 

 

Having super stars at CB isn't that great an advantage if you can't stop the run. Tom Brady is now a Buc. 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

If we had Jim Scwartz's defense, we'd be unstoppable.

 

If Jim Schwartz had Jim Schwartz's defense Philly might not suck.

[machine gun kelly]

8 hours ago, thronethinker said:

Bruce was part of the late 80s teams and no doubt he was a major contributor to the SB teams, but in the end the team didnt make the SB until it made substantial changes to the offense play. This was mostly Kelly, Thurman, and Reed. They changed the tempo of the game. 

 

We have that ability now with Josh and the receivers, but I am talking about a Thurman Thomas. Is Josh our Thurman Thomas? I would like to think so, but time will tell. 

It wasn’t just Thurmon, Kelly and Reed.  They had Lofton (HOF) and Beebe who won a SB in Green Bay, and an excellent RB to compliment Thurmon in Kenny Davis as well as Jamie Meuller as a solid FB.  We have Diggs, Brown, Beasley, but also Davis emerging, and I have faith Moss will compliment Motor soon enough.  It’s only been four games.  There is never going to be another Bruce, but we have a lot of talent on that defense.  Tre is better than any CB we had back in those days.  Defenses are winning a lot more from the back forward and forward to back like in the 90’s.  The rules have changed, and the way the game has schemed has changed.

 

We’re going to be fine and as much as I loved Marv and Polian, we have something special in McD, Beane, and yes, Daboll.  The future’s so bright, we’ll need to get the shades out.  Whenever we play the Titans, if we play the Titans will be fun.  Our top flight secondary will shut down Tannehill’s passing offense, amd it will be the Henry show, but our D will keep everything in front of them.  I can see Henry running for 130 yards, but Tannehill only getting maybe 145 yards in the air, and our offenses will be shock and awe against their defense.

[BillsFanSD]

42 minutes ago, mannc said:

Bills Offense was built around Jim Kelly, not Thurman Thomas.

Couldn't disagree more strongly with this.  Kelly was great of course, but Thomas was really the engine of that offense.

[jwhit34]

At this stage of their careers:

 

QB: Kelly is better than Allen

RB: Thomas is way better, #1 or #2 reason SB team is > present day

OL: Brought up a little but the Super Bowl teams' OL was terrific, better than present day

WR: Pretty even, Reed-Diggs is close, I'd take Lofton over Brown and Beasley over Beebe

TE: Not close Super Bowl teams better

DL: Bruce is the other #1 or #2 reason SB team is > present day

LB: I'll take Talley/Bennett/Conlan over Milano and Edmunds

DB: Today's DBs are better because of Tre and safeties

Special Teams: Super Bowl teams better in kicking game and had guys like Tasker and Pike anchoring coverage, Roberts a better return guy though

[Hebert19]

9 hours ago, thronethinker said:

Looking back at the early 90s Bills it is obvious that the team had several Hall of Fame Members associated with it. In fact it is one of the highest number of HOF members associated with any one NFL team between 1990-1992 add in NFL history. The late 80s team was very complete but still lacked that edge before 1990 to get into the SB. The Bennet trade was a difference maker but not what got the team to the SB. In the end the difference was going to the no huddle and utilizing Thurman Thomas as a dual threat at RB or Receiver. You cannot argue this point, the Bills went from contenders to SB plus 4 when they optimized Thurman Thomas in the no huddle. 

 

Today I see a very promising team with Allen and the receivers. Our D should rebound. But  what is our formulation to get over that hump like the late 80s teams? I like our chances out scoring other teams every week, but we lack that No Huddle or Thurman Thomas factor of the 90s teams. Diggs is a major piece and it shows, but I just feel we are are missing piece away from domination. 

Bruce Smith 

[BobbyC81]

6 hours ago, Wizard said:

It was easier to keep a team together back in the early 90s. Free agency is the biggest difference from the 90s.

 

Agree with other posters on DE, RB, LB, and just overall depth. Yes...these Bills are good, but it would take a hall of fame level DE, a solid right side of the OL, another solid linebacker, and a MVP-level running back before we can compare the two teams.

A top level DE and Singletary averaging 1200+ yards is the next step/level.

 

Let's keep building and win a playoff game first!

 

I ‘d say, along with free agency, the salary cap prevents teams from keeping top players for a long team. You can’t sign everyone to big contracts.

[Chicharito]

10 hours ago, westside2 said:

Off the top of my head, I would say pass rush and running back. I would be interested to see the Bills apply some sort of variation of the K-gun. I think we have the weapons to pull it off.

K-gun was tailored around Keith mckeller a good pass catching TE. Pretty much automatic catches when thrown too. We don’t have that.

[Your Brown Eye]

Van Miller

[Beast]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

Except the Chiefs won the Super Bowl...

 

Really?

[eball]

I think the flaw in this question is that there is no “formula” to being a SB competitor, aside from typically needing a top QB. To presume the Bills need to “re-create” the 90s squads is folly. The current team lacks only experience and a resume of coming out on top against good teams. The last two weeks have been huge in that regard, however. 
 

I mean, sure, who doesn’t want another Bruce or Thurman?

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, eball said:

I think the flaw in this question is that there is no “formula” to being a SB competitor, aside from typically needing a top QB. To presume the Bills need to “re-create” the 90s squads is folly. The current team lacks only experience and a resume of coming out on top against good teams. The last two weeks have been huge in that regard, however. 
 

I mean, sure, who doesn’t want another Bruce or Thurman?

 

 

Agree there is no precise formula. But I do think that real dominant Dline presence is the missing piece. If Ed can become that consistently (cos when he is playing well our whole D works better) or we can find a pass rusher off the edge of that ilk then we are gonna be extremely hard to stop. 

[SoCal Deek]

It’s definitely the defensive front seven and as so many have said, Bruce Smith. I’m really not sure how the current front office and coaching staff haven’t been able to recognize and/or address this glaring hole. It doesn’t seem like it should be that hard to get a guy who can put consistent pressure on the QB. 

[formerlyofCtown]

11 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

 

Who is this Bruce you speak of? 🤔

 

#1. As much as I like Motor, he's no Thurman Thomas. Defenses in the 90's had to account and game plan around #34. Motor is not in that type of discussion. #2.  And yes, a pass rush would be nice. #3.  Our LB's were better and deeper in the 90's but that I guess is to be expected when running a predominate 3-4 defense. 

I disagree.  I think our lack of LBs is why we never won a SB.

[SoTier]

Different times, different teams.  What worked in the 1990s isn't going to fly in the 2020s, so I'm not even going to compare the two.  

 

They've got their QB, they've got a great WR corps that complements each other, they have a young RB duo to tote the rock when they need/want to do so, and they have one of the better OLs in the league.  For the first time since the Kelly era, they actually have TEs that catch the ball rather than just block.   On defense, they don't have 1 great pass rusher but they've got a deep DL unit that they rotate effectively.  They have excellent LBs, especially Milano and Edmunds, one of the top pairs of safeties in the league, and a good CB corps headed up by a young All Pro in Tre White.   Overall, they have significantly more team speed and smarter, more dedicated players (I think that too many fans don't appreciate just how much better prepared your average NFL rookie is today than 30 years ago).    

 

I think that the Bills are significantly better coached than those Glory Years teams.  I wasn't a McDermott fan until I saw how well he's had the Bills ready for this 2020 season with no OTAs, no preseason games, etc.  They came out prepared to play in Game 1 and haven't looked back.  They are playing very disciplined football with minimal pre-snap, late hit, and other similarly dumb penalties.   Compared to many of the other teams, they've had fewer of the kinds of injuries that might result from not having enough or the right kind of training to make up for no preseason games.   Leslie Frazier has been a good DC since he was hired on.  Many people disliked Brian Daboll for his first couple of years here in Buffalo, but he seems to have managed Josh Allen's development extremely well, especially after getting better coaches for the various position groups last season.

 

I think that the Bills compare well with the top teams in the NFL today, and various experts around the league are recognizing that.  IMO, the only thing that keeps the Bills from making the playoffs and making a serious run for the AFC Championship is injuries -- or a league-wide disruption of play due to Covid-19.  

Edited October 8, 2020 by SoTier

[billsbackto81]

6 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

I disagree.  I think our lack of LBs is why we never won a SB.

Shane Conlan

Cornelius Bennett

Darryl Talley

Carlton Bailey

 

That's a much better group than what we have now. We can debate different skill sets, schemes and time era but from a "talent" perspective they were solid. Maybe they weren't deep enough to win a SB but there were so many other factors. Coaching, player discipline or lack thereof, star players not showing up on the big stage. 

[without a drought]

An abundance of play-makers on defense.

[spartacus]

14 hours ago, mannc said:

Well, bad teams like the Giants still try to build around RBs...and at any rate, the 90s  Bills Offense was built around Jim Kelly, not Thurman Thomas.

in correct

 

Thurman was the key

would have won SB 25 if they gave him the ball

[Returntoglory]

Absolutely dominant pass rusher! Man. Watching Bruce in his hey day was magical. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

On 10/7/2020 at 10:15 PM, JTown said:

3.  I'm pretty sure lack of experience at kicker will bite us at some point.

im pretty sure experience at kicker still bit  pretty hard in the 90s.

 

The differences are 

 

1) none of the current Ends are close canton bound

2) current team has a way better secondary and as a whole the defense now is much better up the middle than the Marv teams 

3) Kelly was in his Prime, Josh still a ways away from salty vet

4) WRs, I think are pretty close
5) this o line is good, that one had multiple pro bowlers 

6) Motor is good, Thurman could take over a game 

7) the game has changed soooo much 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Rebel101]

On 10/7/2020 at 10:04 PM, thronethinker said:

Looking back at the early 90s Bills it is obvious that the team had several Hall of Fame Members associated with it. In fact it is one of the highest number of HOF members associated with any one NFL team between 1990-1992 add in NFL history. The late 80s team was very complete but still lacked that edge before 1990 to get into the SB. The Bennet trade was a difference maker but not what got the team to the SB. In the end the difference was going to the no huddle and utilizing Thurman Thomas as a dual threat at RB or Receiver. You cannot argue this point, the Bills went from contenders to SB plus 4 when they optimized Thurman Thomas in the no huddle. 

 

Today I see a very promising team with Allen and the receivers. Our D should rebound. But  what is our formulation to get over that hump like the late 80s teams? I like our chances out scoring other teams every week, but we lack that No Huddle or Thurman Thomas factor of the 90s teams. Diggs is a major piece and it shows, but I just feel we are are missing piece away from domination. 

I agree. I do thinks our defense will help. But I also think people are still playing the run thinking that’s what Buffalo football is and no confidence in Allen. Especially with no preseason so as that changes the defenses will start playing the pass more which will allow us to us Singletary or moss as really a game changer and a game finisher. Also Knox. Having 3 stud WRs. Having a TE and a RB that adds to that is dangerous. Right now Knox hasn’t been that healthy and Kroft has made a few plays but if Knox can take that step it will be HUGE. 

[Augie]

I would say the best pass rusher ever would have to be high on my list. 

 

Solidify the OL so we could reliably run the ball would be a distant (but important) second. 

[2ForMacAdoo]

13 hours ago, BillsPride12 said:

This team is a stud edge rusher away from being a legit Super Bowl contender in my opinion 

This.  There has never been and will never be another Bruuuuce. We are spoiled because of him. Having said that, I don't believe with all that offensive firepower that the Chiefs juggernaut wins last year's Super Bowl without Frank Clark. I'd be willing to part with next year's 1st rounder for a DE of that caliber.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 10/7/2020 at 9:05 PM, westside2 said:

Off the top of my head, I would say pass rush and running back. I would be interested to see the Bills apply some sort of variation of the K-gun. I think we have the weapons to pull it off.

 

DINGDINGDING this first.  Pass rush.  Running game.

 

The Bills are already applying variants of the K-gun for example:

https://clutchpoints.com/bills-news-buffalo-adapting-some-old-jim-kelly-plays-for-josh-allen/

[4th&long]

Running back. No one close to Thurman Thomas on this team!

[Mr. WEO]

Front 7

[Motor26]

Don Beebe. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Motor26

[Lurker]

Thurman.  He was the guy that made everything work.   

 

That team was built around -- and carried by -- the offense.  Thurman was the best offensive player (not just RB) in the league for two of those years.   

 

Bruce was a close second, IMO.   The defense never played at an equivalent level, even with Bruce.   They would make splash plays and take aways, and beat up on inferior competition, but ultimately, were not stout enough to stop big, powerful running teams...

 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Lurker

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

The current team does have something positive going for them that the 90s didn’t. We don’t know how it ends for these guys yet.

[oldmanfan]

On 10/7/2020 at 10:04 PM, thronethinker said:

Looking back at the early 90s Bills it is obvious that the team had several Hall of Fame Members associated with it. In fact it is one of the highest number of HOF members associated with any one NFL team between 1990-1992 add in NFL history. The late 80s team was very complete but still lacked that edge before 1990 to get into the SB. The Bennet trade was a difference maker but not what got the team to the SB. In the end the difference was going to the no huddle and utilizing Thurman Thomas as a dual threat at RB or Receiver. You cannot argue this point, the Bills went from contenders to SB plus 4 when they optimized Thurman Thomas in the no huddle. 

 

Today I see a very promising team with Allen and the receivers. Our D should rebound. But  what is our formulation to get over that hump like the late 80s teams? I like our chances out scoring other teams every week, but we lack that No Huddle or Thurman Thomas factor of the 90s teams. Diggs is a major piece and it shows, but I just feel we are are missing piece away from domination. 

The 80’s teams never truly got over the hump.  But to compare they would need better front 7 on D and for Singleton to emerge as a star

[Bob in STL]

Comparing teams from different eras is nit easy to do.
 

Let’s see this team get there and then have the conversation.  

[Andy1]

We are only missing one Bruce Smith, an all-time great pass rusher.

[keepthefaith]

Kicker