The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[bobobonators]

Lamar certainly didnt play great last night. As a Bills fan i saw 2 huge problems with the ravens:

 

1. Oline - wow they were bad. That center was a disaster. 
2. Roman adjusted too late. They started moving the ball more when they started the short passing game. But things had already started snowballing. 
 

They need a new center and a new OC. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

23 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

How do we know they're the worst?   Seems like a chicken or egg argument.

 

I think they are pretty bad. I mean Dez Bryant gets meaningful snaps. Not quite as bad a unit as Allen's 2018 supporting cast but they are definitely near the bottom this year if not at the bottom.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Lamar has the worst WRs in the league.  He has an offensive line that has no clue how to pass block (or an OC scheme that does a really good job of teaching them to pass block).

 

im not saying Lamar will ever be a great passer.  I do think that, given proper weapons and system, that he can b win in this league due to his otherworldly ability to run

Yeah, ask Eli Manning, Trent dilfer, Doug Williams, Brad johnson....I could go on.  Those guys were average passers and couldn’t run...yet won Super Bowls.

 

It might take the perfect storm to get Lamar a title, but throwing the ball to brown, Snead and Boykin is similar to Josh throwing the ball to Foster, Zay and KB.  Bums

 

Where does this narrative come from that they can't pass block?  Lamar's time to throw is 2.98 secs.  He had quite a bit of time against us on a lot of plays yesterday.  On the sacks he held the ball because he couldnt read the field or no one was open.  Thats not on his oline.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, Penfield45 said:

Has he been given the chance ? 
 

Seems like he needs a coach to help him develop his pass game. 

 

Maybe. But they wasted three seasons in the meantime. He doesn't seem to be able to figure out what he's seeing defensively. Allen didn't either but they were able to teach him.

[BillsFan4]

Total class act!

 

Lamar seems like a great guy.

[Dukestreetking]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Others see a QB who is under average out of the pocket and can't make great reads.  He is plenty elusive and often makes great plays when coverage breaks down.  All qb's will hit some throws and those will be the one's his "backers" will point to.

This.

 

Can't remember where I commented earlier, but I reviewed alot of this season's LJ tape (not A22).

 

Amateur conclusions: he is god awful at read progression, and rarely (never!?) looks off a DB.

 

He is an exceptional RO qb, if you're into that kind of thing.

[GunnerBill]

I wouldn't fire Roman. I still think his offense is the best fit for Lamar. I think he could look terrible in a full west coast timing style scheme or a spread where he is asked to identify mismatches and read the field.

[Man with No Name]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

Total class act!

 

Lamar seems like a great guy.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

 

can't hate a guy like that. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I wouldn't fire Roman. I still think his offense is the best fit for Lamar. I think he could look terrible in a full west coast timing style scheme or a spread where he is asked to identify mismatches and read the field.

interesting to hear steve smith’s views. He basically said a big problem is the types of routes that Roman has the WR’s run— called it simple elementary school stuff, which DB’s easily can defend. 

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Man with No Name said:

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

 

can't hate a guy like that. 

 

Yeah, dammit.  I'm going to have to donate to his charity now.

[Meatloaf63]

12 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Well, I'll take the win - as Josh said, there's no style points in the playoffs - but I don't think this game tells us a whole lot about offensive football theory in general.

The Ravens lost because of one horrid snap and one really good defensive play by Taron Johnson. OK, you can pin part of that one on Lamar, but it was still really well done by Taron.

These are two really good football teams, and very often a play or two will be the difference. Just like it was tonight.

Your forgetting we were two plays from 14 more points. This game was not any closer than it ended up.

[PrimeTime101]

Here's the question that needs to be answered... The same question the first and second year of Josh Allen. IF you put Lamar Jackson behind our offensive line with our weapons how would he do?

 

Lamar earned MVP last year.. I respect his talents. Is it sustainable through the playoffs with better targets and better O'line. That book has not been written yet and Until it is.. I would not write Lamar off yet. 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

interesting to hear steve smith’s views. He basically said a big problem is the types of routes that Roman has the WR’s run— called it simple elementary school stuff, which DB’s easily can defend. 

 

Yea it has always been the case with his scheme. A highly complex run game but a very basic passing scheme. 

[The Frankish Reich]

18 minutes ago, Dukestreetking said:

This.

 

Can't remember where I commented earlier, but I reviewed alot of this season's LJ tape (not A22).

 

Amateur conclusions: he is god awful at read progression, and rarely (never!?) looks off a DB.

 

He is an exceptional RO qb, if you're into that kind of thing.

I think we said the same things about Josh Allen before this season. Not saying that Lamar can make the same jump (really, what other young QBs have in recent memory? They either seem to have it right from the start like Justin Herbert or Patrick Mahomes or they never get it, like EJ Manuel), but starting over with a new OC may be the first step.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I thought Lamars backup played better than he did.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I thought Lamars backup played better than he did.

Strangely enough, with the same WR and OL.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Just "play decent" is what you want out of Allen. Given his improvement since his first start and his track record I find it hard to believe he won't at least play at a decent level. Even looking at the full seasons, the press can see the dramatic improvement in Allen. I like to break it down by half seasons because when you do that you can see that it's not as shocking that Allen made the massive leap he did this year from year 2 to 3. Heading into this season their was legitimate talk about whether Allen's 2019 season was a fluke and if his third season would be similar to Mitch Turbitzky. People thought he could be like Turbitzky or Bortles. I don't think we are worried about him regressing back to those levels. He's at minimum decent. 

 

Allen has all the skills and talent and then some of say an Aaron Rodgers who just put up a 121 passer rating season. The only thing Aaron has on Allen currently is experience. But Allen is gaining experience with every passing minute. It feels like it is only a matter of time before it truly all comes together for him and puts up a similar season to the one Rodgers just had.  Rodgers was in his 4th season starting and 7th season overall when he broke out with his NFL record 122 passer rating season.

 

First off the posts and comments weren't about what "I want out of Allen"  It's about what is needed to get sports writers, TV shows, etc to say Allen is an elite QB.  That was my point.  The fact that you like to break things down into half seasons is fine too for you, but your take on it isn't going to stop the talking heads from saying what they are saying.  What they say certainly doesn't matter anymore than your take and likely you may even have more data than they do to back it up, but again the point of the thread or at least a subset of the posts was about how unfair Allen is judged.  My comments were what IMO needs to happen to stop the bad press.

 

Playing "decent" would go toward showing this season wasn't a fluke and has nothing to do with what I want out of Allen.

[LABILLBACKER]

Lamar is ridiculously athletic but he'll never be an elite long term qb. Yes he won an mvp and put up great numbers that season. But just because you can run doesn't mean you should run. Steve Young learned the value of being a really good pocket passer. He only used his legs when he had to. Lamar's whole game is his legs. And the likelyhood of him avoiding injury or developing as an elite pocket passer is low.

[wjag]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Sort of like what I said about Allen, when the Offense had minimal weapons and a coach wanting 20-17 games predicated on defense (yes it worked yesterday).

 

The difference is, everyone knows Jackson's athleticism and really only his most ardent supporters defend his passing.

 

There are just so few plays Jackson makes as a traditional QB (i.e. drop back and hit a receiver in a tight window).  

 

I saw that made for TV QB challenge and Jackson was just awful.

 

 

Woof.  That was really bad. Epically bad.  

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

17 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

First off the posts and comments weren't about what "I want out of Allen"  It's about what is needed to get sports writers, TV shows, etc to say Allen is an elite QB.  That was my point.  The fact that you like to break things down into half seasons is fine too for you, but your take on it isn't going to stop the talking heads from saying what they are saying.  What they say certainly doesn't matter anymore than your take and likely you may even have more data than they do to back it up, but again the point of the thread or at least a subset of the posts was about how unfair Allen is judged.  My comments were what IMO needs to happen to stop the bad press.

 

Playing "decent" would go toward showing this season wasn't a fluke and has nothing to do with what I want out of Allen.

 

Fair. Enough. Just making sure you everyone realizes it's a near certainty that this year was not a fluke and that Allen's floor is likely a notch or two above decent play. 

[Just Joshin']

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Here's the question that needs to be answered... The same question the first and second year of Josh Allen. IF you put Lamar Jackson behind our offensive line with our weapons how would he do?

 

Lamar earned MVP last year.. I respect his talents. Is it sustainable through the playoffs with better targets and better O'line. That book has not been written yet and Until it is.. I would not write Lamar off yet. 

Jackson had a very good year last year - no doubt.

 

Why did he win the MVP?  The usual candidates had off years and he was the shiny new toy.  He was the the best of the options but maybe Mahomes should have won.

 

How many extra games does Jackson win for his team.  An average QB with that D and RBs would win about the same.  A MVP should lift his team, not maintain.

[The Frankish Reich]

21 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Lamar is ridiculously athletic but he'll never be an elite long term qb. Yes he won an mvp and put up great numbers that season. But just because you can run doesn't mean you should run. Steve Young learned the value of being a really good pocket passer. He only used his legs when he had to. Lamar's whole game is his legs. And the likelyhood of him avoiding injury or developing as an elite pocket passer is low.

I'm not sure why Steve Young could learn the value of being a really good pocket passer but Lamar can't.

Josh Allen is also ridiculously athletic (albeit in a different way), and he seems to have made that transition.

Maybe the problem is early success. Harbaugh wanted to move on from Flacco in Lamar's rookie season. They developed an offense that is perfectly suited to Lamar's athletic ability, and that minimized the things he wasn't good at yet like going through his progressions in the pocket, developing more sophisticated passing schemes, etc. 

And it worked! And when it works and you're already a playoff team it's awfully hard to go back and say "but we need to start over to maximize the potential for his long term success." Kind of like a 100 mph fastball pitcher who gets promoted too early and has immediate success - it's tough to teach him those secondary pitches on the job, the ones he should've learned at AA and AAA. When you're a Josh Allen and you struggle mightily in your first year by relying on your athleticism, it's easier to say you have to rework the offense to give him the best chance to succeed. Steve Young had immediate success (of a sort) in the USFL-his team won their division and everything looked good as a kind of continuation of his BYU career. Then he had immediate colossal failure (2-12) in the NFL as reliance on his physical tools alone wasn't enough. It wasn't until his age 28 season in SF, subbing for Joe Montana (and with Rice/Taylor, etc.) that he seemed to "get it."

All I'm saying is that this is not (as the OP suggested a while ago) the "end of the Lamar Jackson Era." More like the end of the Greg Roman era if you ask me.

[NewEra]

@Shaw66 Your name is safe.....for now!!! 
 

[Locomark]

32 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Lamar is ridiculously athletic but he'll never be an elite long term qb. Yes he won an mvp and put up great numbers that season. But just because you can run doesn't mean you should run. Steve Young learned the value of being a really good pocket passer. He only used his legs when he had to. Lamar's whole game is his legs. And the likelyhood of him avoiding injury or developing as an elite pocket passer is low.

I think the scheme stinks. Lamar was a pocket passer in Louisville. Roman has him running a college veer offense. Blame Roman and the GM for always drafting RBs and not WRs. They are like the Bills a few years ago. Thinking you can win forever by playing an older style of football. I don’t know if Lamar can be that guy, but the style of offense they have will never tell us. He is not being asked to be a passer so who knows how good he will be at it. Meanwhile they are wasting some of his best years while they figure it out because his wheels won’t last forever. 

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea it has always been the case with his scheme. A highly complex run game but a very basic passing scheme. 

Ya but maybe Lamar limits his options? 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, JerseyBills said:

Ya but maybe Lamar limits his options? 

 

I think that is always how Roman's offenses have been. But Lamar is not a guy I would class as being able to make all the throws.

[LanderPoke]

Lamar is fool’s gold. He’s Michael vick

[JMF2006]

56 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Lamar is ridiculously athletic but he'll never be an elite long term qb. Yes he won an mvp and put up great numbers that season. But just because you can run doesn't mean you should run. Steve Young learned the value of being a really good pocket passer. He only used his legs when he had to. Lamar's whole game is his legs. And the likelyhood of him avoiding injury or developing as an elite pocket passer is low.

 

Every time I see a guy come along like him( Lamar) I think of RG3.

 

He was unstoppable for a little while until he wrecked a knee.

 

Once his wheels were flat he didn't have it anymore because he couldn't adapt to being a pocket passer

[Freak-O]

5 hours ago, nucci said:

I think they said "Josh Allen" the same amount of times

I seem to remember the raven's having more of the ball so that's probably not accurate. And even if they did, they didn't talk about him like he was the new messiah.

[Dukestreetking]

2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I think we said the same things about Josh Allen before this season. Not saying that Lamar can make the same jump (really, what other young QBs have in recent memory? They either seem to have it right from the start like Justin Herbert or Patrick Mahomes or they never get it, like EJ Manuel), but starting over with a new OC may be the first step.

Agreed.

 

But, quick add: my comment(s) were in context of LJ's apparent lack of improvement in his reads, esp vav JA.

 

Scheme, LJ issue, both? Personally not sure.

[GETTOTHE50]

3 hours ago, LanderPoke said:

Lamar is fool’s gold. He’s Michael vick

Ron Mexico was much better than Lamar. 

[DuckyBoys]

3 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I'm not sure why Steve Young could learn the value of being a really good pocket passer but Lamar can't.

Josh Allen is also ridiculously athletic (albeit in a different way), and he seems to have made that transition.

Maybe the problem is early success. Harbaugh wanted to move on from Flacco in Lamar's rookie season. They developed an offense that is perfectly suited to Lamar's athletic ability, and that minimized the things he wasn't good at yet like going through his progressions in the pocket, developing more sophisticated passing schemes, etc. 

And it worked! And when it works and you're already a playoff team it's awfully hard to go back and say "but we need to start over to maximize the potential for his long term success." Kind of like a 100 mph fastball pitcher who gets promoted too early and has immediate success - it's tough to teach him those secondary pitches on the job, the ones he should've learned at AA and AAA. When you're a Josh Allen and you struggle mightily in your first year by relying on your athleticism, it's easier to say you have to rework the offense to give him the best chance to succeed. Steve Young had immediate success (of a sort) in the USFL-his team won their division and everything looked good as a kind of continuation of his BYU career. Then he had immediate colossal failure (2-12) in the NFL as reliance on his physical tools alone wasn't enough. It wasn't until his age 28 season in SF, subbing for Joe Montana (and with Rice/Taylor, etc.) that he seemed to "get it."

All I'm saying is that this is not (as the OP suggested a while ago) the "end of the Lamar Jackson Era." More like the end of the Greg Roman era if you ask me.

They took short term success over more sustainable long term  success To be fair he needs better wrs on the perimeter and for Roman to call passing plays Be interesting what they do next year

[Putin]

9 hours ago, nucci said:

I think they said "Josh Allen" the same amount of times

No they didn’t they said Lamar Jackson name 14 times and only 12 times Josh Allen 

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Putin said:

No they didn’t they said Lamar Jackson name 14 times and only 12 times Josh Allen 

 

Proof! The league hates the Bills!

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 hours ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

Ron Mexico was much better than Lamar. 

 

Viva el Ronaldo

[Arm of Harm]

Let's say a team signs a blocking TE and a pass catching TE. Same position, two different jobs. Because the job is different, you're looking for different attributes or skill sets from one than you are from the other. Sure, you'd love to have a guy who's great at both, but usually it's one or the other.

 

By the same token, a QB in a Greg Roman offense is there to do a different job than a QB who's asked to be a traditional pocket passer. If you're going to be a QB in a Greg Roman offense above all you need to be fast. Take EJ Manuel for example. When the Bills drafted him he was known as a raw prospect with great physical tools. But those physical tools were not quite good enough for a Greg Roman offense. Roman benched Manuel (4.65 in the 40) in favor of Tyrod Taylor (4.47 in the 40). After Roman found his way to Baltimore, did the Ravens make a major effort to acquire Taylor? No, they didn't. Instead they drafted Lamar Jackson. Why pursue a QB who ran a 4.47 in the 40 when you can draft a QB who ran a 4.34? 

 

Greg Roman has routinely been accused of holding his QBs back. If that's true, you'd expect QBs to do better after leaving his system. After Roman's empire fell in San Francisco, Colin Kaepernick entered a two year QB competition against Blaine Gabbert. Both QBs provided roughly similar levels of play over the course of those two years. After that, Gabbert signed a vet minimum deal with some other team, while Kaepernick exited the league. After leaving Roman's system in Buffalo, Tyrod Taylor was significantly outplayed by two rookie QBs: Baker Mayfield in Cleveland and Justin Herbert with the Los Angeles Chargers. Both Kaepernick and Taylor looked like starting quality QBs while living under Roman rule, and backup quality QBs after Roman. The same people who thought that Greg Roman had been holding Kaepernick and Taylor back are now claiming he's holding back Lamar Jackson.

 

The reality is Lamar is a billboard for Roman's offense. A billboard. Roman is an expert at using a QB's running ability to hide that QB's deficiencies as a passer. Roman's offense creates opportunities for easy completions--opportunities which don't exist for traditional pocket passing QBs, or even for running QBs in non-Roman offenses. If you were to put Jackson in a non-Roman offense--if you were to take those easy completions away from him--would he do better than Kaepernick or Taylor did in post-Roman offenses? Maybe. But that's speculative.

[PrimeTime101]

we still at this? lol

[The Frankish Reich]

6 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

Let's say a team signs a blocking TE and a pass catching TE. Same position, two different jobs. Because the job is different, you're looking for different attributes or skill sets from one than you are from the other. Sure, you'd love to have a guy who's great at both, but usually it's one or the other.

 

By the same token, a QB in a Greg Roman offense is there to do a different job than a QB who's asked to be a traditional pocket passer. If you're going to be a QB in a Greg Roman offense above all you need to be fast. Take EJ Manuel for example. When the Bills drafted him he was known as a raw prospect with great physical tools. But those physical tools were not quite good enough for a Greg Roman offense. Roman benched Manuel (4.65 in the 40) in favor of Tyrod Taylor (4.47 in the 40). After Roman found his way to Baltimore, did the Ravens make a major effort to acquire Taylor? No, they didn't. Instead they drafted Lamar Jackson. Why pursue a QB who ran a 4.47 in the 40 when you can draft a QB who ran a 4.34? 

 

Greg Roman has routinely been accused of holding his QBs back. If that's true, you'd expect QBs to do better after leaving his system. After Roman's empire fell in San Francisco, Colin Kaepernick entered a two year QB competition against Blaine Gabbert. Both QBs provided roughly similar levels of play over the course of those two years. After that, Gabbert signed a vet minimum deal with some other team, while Kaepernick exited the league. After leaving Roman's system in Buffalo, Tyrod Taylor was significantly outplayed by two rookie QBs: Baker Mayfield in Cleveland and Justin Herbert with the Los Angeles Chargers. Both Kaepernick and Taylor looked like starting quality QBs while living under Roman rule, and backup quality QBs after Roman. The same people who thought that Greg Roman had been holding Kaepernick and Taylor back are now claiming he's holding back Lamar Jackson.

 

The reality is Lamar is a billboard for Roman's offense. A billboard. Roman is an expert at using a QB's running ability to hide that QB's deficiencies as a passer. Roman's offense creates opportunities for easy completions--opportunities which don't exist for traditional pocket passing QBs, or even for running QBs in non-Roman offenses. If you were to put Jackson in a non-Roman offense--if you were to take those easy completions away from him--would he do better than Kaepernick or Taylor did in post-Roman offenses? Maybe. But that's speculative.

Good comment. There's definitely something to this, but I'd have to say we're still in the "too soon to tell" phase.

- Tyrod: 6th round draft pick, never viewed as a starting QB prospect, turned into a perfectly acceptable starter (meaning somewhere around the 20th best in the NFL) by working under Roman's offense. No evidence yet that he would have similar success in a different offensive scheme, and I doubt we'll find out - for a run oriented QB, he's now past his prime

- Kaep: obviously thrived under Roman and struggled after. There's some mitigating factors there since the Niners as a whole entered a down phase, and of course we never got to see whether he could succeed with a different team

- Lamar: as you note, two ways of looking at it. Roman is using his skill set perfectly, and he probably wouldn't be so good in another scheme? Or Roman is, at this point, actually holding back his development as a passer? My guess is that both are correct. I think he'll be a success under other schemes (Daboll and Allen style, or maybe Kingsbury and Kyler style), and I think we'll find out soon enough.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I skipped this thread for a bit.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30748801/john-harbaugh-defends-baltimore-ravens-run-heavy-offense

 

- Baltimore Ravens coach John Harbaugh offered a defiant rebuttal Wednesday to the criticism about his offense, saying he is "not apologizing" for Lamar Jackson's style of play or the team's run-oriented game plan.

Harbaugh's forceful support came four days after the Ravens tied a franchise postseason record for fewest points scored in a 17-3 divisional playoff loss to the Buffalo Bills. Ravens offensive coordinator Greg Roman received heavy flak for what many saw as a simplistic passing attack.

 

ALSO - 

We don't want any Diva WR's so don't come asking 

[HOUSE]

9 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

we still at this? lol

 

I am writing a book, 435 pages