How are we feeling about Elam?

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

My gut says traded. 

I just wrote something about this generally, and gave Elam as an example.   I think it's important to keep young talent a year too long, rather than cut young talent a year too early.  Young often talent needs time to grow into the league, and it's worth it to give young talent extra time to see what that growth looks like.  Everyone uses Wyatt Teller as the example.  

 

Elam was injured last year, which hampered his growth.  He also, clearly, has had trouble being effective and consistent in McDermott's scheme.  He's young - turns 23 this year.  I'd much rather invest another year in him than see him starting for five years (which he has the potential to do) for some other team. 

[JerseyBills]

Benford and obviously Douglas are ahead of him but he's a very solid backup

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, nosejob said:

You may end up being right, but I think we'll see a similar story like the Bernard thing last year.

 

 

I hope you are right and a light just suddenly comes on. I don't see it though. 

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I just wrote something about this generally, and gave Elam as an example.   I think it's important to keep young talent a year too long, rather than cut young talent a year too early.  Young often talent needs time to grow into the league, and it's worth it to give young talent extra time to see what that growth looks like.  Everyone uses Wyatt Teller as the example.  

 

Elam was injured last year, which hampered his growth.  He also, clearly, has had trouble being effective and consistent in McDermott's scheme.  He's young - turns 23 this year.  I'd much rather invest another year in him than see him starting for five years (which he has the potential to do) for some other team. 

 

But he might never have the potential to start for five years for this team in this defense. I think he is more like Jerry Hughes than Wyatt Teller. Hughes could have stayed in Indianapolis for 5 years longer and not broken out the way he did for the Bills because his skillset wasn't fitting what he was being asked to do. 

[babulator]

He'll be CB3 or CB4 until his rookie deal runs out, or (not likely) someone offers something for him (also not likely to get fair value). After that, he wont get 5th yr optioned or tagged and will move on somewhere else.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

2 hours ago, Kaenon said:

Curious to hear your thoughts on this upcoming season for Elam and expectations.

 

Do you think he's starting?

Is he traded?

Or is he CB3 behind Douglas and Benford?

 

I think he sucks. He can make splash plays due to his speed & athleticism, but he is way too inconsistent in coverage. Good depth player. He was not worth the 1st pick though. I think Buffalo will take a flyer on a CB with the extra 5th rounder. 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I hope you are right and a light just suddenly comes on. I don't see it though. 

 

But he might never have the potential to start for five years for this team in this defense. I think he is more like Jerry Hughes than Wyatt Teller. Hughes could have stayed in Indianapolis for 5 years longer and not broken out the way he did for the Bills because his skillset wasn't fitting what he was being asked to do. 

Yes, that all may be true, but he also could be Jordan Poyer, who had 10 starts in four seasons in Cleveland, or Micah Hyde, who was only a part-time starter in Green Bay.  Not saying he's a safety - just saying that top talent doesn't always develop into top players in the their first three or four years.  Yes, change of scenery helps some, scheme is a factor.   But at least with scheme, they thought he could be a scheme fit when they drafted him, and he knows that scheme fit is critical to making it in Buffalo.  

 

Maybe you're right, and the Bills already have given up on him and are just waiting for the right opportunity to unload him.  I think he's cheap and talented.   Aren't likely to get a better backup at that price.  

 

Bills will get a rookie corner or two in the draft and and free agency, and if one of them can take the backup job from Elam, so be it.  Otherwise, I think the Bills will be happy to have him.  At least, that would be my take. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yes, that all may be true, but he also could be Jordan Poyer, who had 10 starts in four seasons in Cleveland, or Micah Hyde, who was only a part-time starter in Green Bay.  Not saying he's a safety - just saying that top talent doesn't always develop into top players in the their first three or four years.  Yes, change of scenery helps some, scheme is a factor.   But at least with scheme, they thought he could be a scheme fit when they drafted him, and he knows that scheme fit is critical to making it in Buffalo.  

 

Poyer's issue was lack of opportunity (and then when he did get it his last year in Cleveland injury struck). Hyde's issue in Green Bay was his versatility hurt him. Wherever a guy went down they'd move Hyde there so he never got to shine in a single spot - but he was always an excellent player and I said so the day he was signed here. 

 

I just think it is so obviously a schematic thing with Elam that he isn't in the same conversation as those other guys. And even more than that it is transitions. The mechanical awkwardness moving from vertical to lateral and moving from backpedal to close and vice versa. It makes being a good zone defender really hard. If that was an easy fix I think it would have happened by now. 

[GETTOTHE50]

You gotta let him play and live with whatever the results are. To be drafted and hardly see the field is more of an indictment on the bills than him. 

[BaaadThingsMan]

New coaches. I'm optimistic.

[The Firebaugh Kid]

Starter. 

[Logic]

57 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I just wrote something about this generally, and gave Elam as an example.   I think it's important to keep young talent a year too long, rather than cut young talent a year too early.  Young often talent needs time to grow into the league, and it's worth it to give young talent extra time to see what that growth looks like.  Everyone uses Wyatt Teller as the example.  

 

Elam was injured last year, which hampered his growth.  He also, clearly, has had trouble being effective and consistent in McDermott's scheme.  He's young - turns 23 this year.  I'd much rather invest another year in him than see him starting for five years (which he has the potential to do) for some other team. 

Agreed, especially since the return you're likely to get for him is a 6th or 7th rounder.

At that rate of return, a guy like Elam is worth more to you than the compensation you'd receive in return.

For the record -- and this is probably just the eternal optimist in me -- I'm bullish on Elam this year. I think he knows it's "do or die" for his career as a starter in this league, and if healthy, I think he's gonna make a run for playing time in this defense.

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Poyer's issue was lack of opportunity (and then when he did get it his last year in Cleveland injury struck). Hyde's issue in Green Bay was his versatility hurt him. Wherever a guy went down they'd move Hyde there so he never got to shine in a single spot - but he was always an excellent player and I said so the day he was signed here. 

 

I just think it is so obviously a schematic thing with Elam that he isn't in the same conversation as those other guys. And even more than that it is transitions. The mechanical awkwardness moving from vertical to lateral and moving from backpedal to close and vice versa. It makes being a good zone defender really hard. If that was an easy fix I think it would have happened by now. 

That's interesting.  You know way more about the technical stuff than I.  If the Bills are going to move on from him, I'd think the earliest that would happen would be late camp/preseason, when they know they have their CB depth covered with some other young player(s).  

 

I'm still hoping you're young, as you are, too. 

[GunnerBill]

33 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

That's interesting.  You know way more about the technical stuff than I.  If the Bills are going to move on from him, I'd think the earliest that would happen would be late camp/preseason, when they know they have their CB depth covered with some other young player(s).  

 

I'm still hoping you're young, as you are, too. 

 

I agree that is the earliest it will happen. And yes, I'd love to be wrong. But it is wish rather than hope that I'd be young haha.

[dickleyjones]

i like his knack for making big plays. that's hard to teach.

 

if he could just be halfway decent the rest of the time he'd be pretty good, that can be taught.

[RyanC883]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

My gut says traded. 

 

go take some probiotics and come back with a different answer

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree that is the earliest it will happen. And yes, I'd love to be wrong. But it is wish rather than hope that I'd be young haha.

Seems like you were right about Miller.  I need to stop doubting you!

[julian]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Poyer's issue was lack of opportunity (and then when he did get it his last year in Cleveland injury struck). Hyde's issue in Green Bay was his versatility hurt him. Wherever a guy went down they'd move Hyde there so he never got to shine in a single spot - but he was always an excellent player and I said so the day he was signed here. 

 

I just think it is so obviously a schematic thing with Elam that he isn't in the same conversation as those other guys. And even more than that it is transitions. The mechanical awkwardness moving from vertical to lateral and moving from backpedal to close and vice versa. It makes being a good zone defender really hard. If that was an easy fix I think it would have happened by now. 

That’s plenty of guesswork, nobody will know until he gets extended playing time, with this organization or another. 
 

I’ll take a guess as well, Elam wasn’t a scheme fit as you suggested, the Bills coaches believed he could be coached up but unfortunately he struggled with the transition while at the same time Benford fit like a glove.

 

 These circumstances caused Elam to become frustrated and butt heads with his position coach thus stunting his development.

 

A guess is a guess.

[Don Otreply]

I’ve got a peaceful easy feeling…, 

[JMM]

Absolute do or die year for him. If he doesn't show significant improvement he's done as a Bill. They will move on in some form or fashion from him. 

[BigAl2526]

He hasn't done enough on the field to warrant any optimism, but we don't know what's going on behind the scenes: how much of a handicap his injury was last season, how he handles himself in team meetings and in practice.  If you go by what we've seen on the field, he's already gone.  I'm not ready to say though.

[Allen2D̶i̶g̶g̶s̶TBD]

I hope he either wins a starting role or gets traded. He's too talented to ride the bench all season again.

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I hope you are right and a light just suddenly comes on. I don't see it though. 

 

But he might never have the potential to start for five years for this team in this defense. I think he is more like Jerry Hughes than Wyatt Teller. Hughes could have stayed in Indianapolis for 5 years longer and not broken out the way he did for the Bills because his skillset wasn't fitting what he was being asked to do. 

Hey, Gunner.  I was rereading this, and I hadn't really focused on the Hughes comparison.   I can really see that.  Hughes had an interesting skill set, but he wasn't well suited to playing the more button-down style McDermott wants from his edges.  Playing that style limited the things that he did best.  Hughes wasn't able to make explosive plays in that defense.  

 

Even though we've seen only a little of Elam, we've seen enough to see that playing with the discipline McDermott requires limits his ability to make plays.   

 

Compare him to Tre White, for example.  White was good enough to be a true cover corner, but when he played with the discipline required by the defense, his cover skills aren't lost.  That same thing is what the Bills got from Poyer and Hyde, and from Johnson.  They're all guys with ability to make big plays AND play the scheme.  That's also what's expected from the linebackers - run the defense, but make plays, too.  

 

That's what Elam has to do, and we haven't seen that from him yet.  And that was Hughes's struggle, too.  The difference is that Hughes was still a net plus on the field, but Elam has generally been a minus.   Elam has to make a leap this summer.   I can see that now.  

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

7 hours ago, BBFL said:

He’s still on the team, still in the doghouse and probably still won’t play. 

But the Bills are freeing up cap space to sign him to an extension, with a nice bonus.

*
🤔

[blacklabel]

I feel like he is a guy who plays da game of professional foosball for a living. 

 

I dunno. It seems like they see something in him. Year one it took a while for him to adapt to the scheme and stuff. Then year two he was banged up so...tough to gauge, I guess. 

 

He's had his moments for sure. But he's also had some not so great moments. I'd imagine if he doesn't turn the corner this season then they'll probably wanna move on. Hopefully he takes the leap and becomes whatever they think he can be. 

 

[SCBills]

For whatever reason, the Bills and/or Douglas didn’t want to go past this coming season. 
 

Ideally it clicks for him under new coaching and the Rasul Douglas replacement is in house. 

[billsfan714]

For some guys the jump to the pros is much like the jump from HS to major college programs.   Some guys don't develop/start until year 3 and 4 when theyre juniors and seniors.    He made some plays late in the year, there still hope the light comes on, he has the physical tools.

 

[Freddie's Dead]

10 hours ago, Bruffalo said:

Not good. If he can compete for the CB3 role I'd be happy, if he outplays Benson and steals the CB2 role away I'll be shocked. 

 

[Jerry Jabber]

He started to show some flashes at the end of last season. He had a nice INT in the endzone and almost had another in the same game. While I hope he can be a “late bloomer,” I won’t hold my breath on that. Still grabs/holds way too much!

[FireChans]

12 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

The people calling to trade him-why? What are the Bills going to get for him? A 6th round pick? Cool, he’s more valuable than that to the team.  You just want him gone because you’re butt hurt he hasn’t played up to expectations, but trading him is an extremely foolish move. He’s cheap, he plus a position of need , and he has shown flashes 

Folks said this about Big Cody just before we launched Big Cody into the sun (Arizona).

 

I still don't feel foolish about it.

Edited March 8 by FireChans

[Albany,n.y.]

I'm willing to take a wait and see attitude and at least see what he can be when healthy. I'm drawing a line through last season due to the injury.  If he is still not worth activating after preseason then it's over, but who knows. He could end up starting with Benford moving to one of the vacant safety spots.

[oldmanfan]

Time for the young man to step up.  If he can’t get what the D expects out of him, then trade him.

[JaCrispy]

23 hours ago, Bogie_Klinkhammer said:

I am feeling stressed 

I’m a little gassy, myself…But hey, it’s Friday- sky’s the limit…😉

[Warriorspikes51]

With Tre gone, I expect him to compete for starting spot.  

[All_Pro_Bills]

What is still unexplained is if Elam doesn't fit McDermott's "scheme" then why did the team make a deal to swap first rounders and give up another pick to move up a couple spots to draft a CB that didn't fit was a square peg, round hole case?  Did they not do the scouting, workouts, and interviews with Elam to understand any of this circumstance?  Was there some disconnect between the GM and the HC?  Did they just severely miscalculate how hard it would be for Elam to make the transition in his game to play under the Bills D scheme? 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, All_Pro_Bills said:

What is still unexplained is if Elam doesn't fit McDermott's "scheme" then why did the team make a deal to swap first rounders and give up another pick to move up a couple spots to draft a CB that didn't fit was a square peg, round hole case?  Did they not do the scouting, workouts, and interviews with Elam to understand any of this circumstance?  Was there some disconnect between the GM and the HC?  Did they just severely miscalculate how hard it would be for Elam to make the transition in his game to play under the Bills D scheme? 

 

I'm pretty sure the latter. Beane talked about his transitions in the presser right after the pick. So they knew about the weaknesses in his game and must have known how that would make executing zone defense tougher. I think they just thought: good kid, NFL DNA, coachable, we will be able to teach him the techniques and if we can his physical gifts give him a huge ceiling. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

New coordinator, new secondary coach.  His slates not going to get a whole lot blanker.  Probably his best shot to make an impact is this year. 

[Negan]

Should have been playing in the Chiefs game, another McDermott blunder playing a hurt Rasual instead of him.

 

Give him a chance for crying out loud.

 

Came up with a huge interception in the Steelers game.

[Mr. WEO]

huge bust

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Negan said:

Should have been playing in the Chiefs game, another McDermott blunder playing a hurt Rasual instead of him.

 

Give him a chance for crying out loud.

 

Came up with a huge interception in the Steelers game.

I agree with this you could really see that Douglas was laboring in the Kansas City game. Hell, our full defense was in a Looney Tunes Acme.

[BigDingus]

I feel the same as I always have... He's not a longterm answer for this team. 

 

Hopefully he'll make me eat my words later & prove me wrong, but I don't see it.

 

He has made a handful of memorable plays, so I'll always appreciate that.