Joe Brady vs Ken Dorsey- Has He Been Better?

[thenorthremembers]

After watching the offense slog along yesterday I wanted to go back and look at the statistics over the last six weeks to see how much of a difference Brady has been.    Looking over the stats, it seems like a bit of a push in terms of offensive success.  What Brady has done better is exactly what McDermott kept harping on "complimentary football."    Brady has taken the air out of the offense and replaced it with ground success, and in doing so, cut down on the turnovers.     

 

Can the Bills keep it up at this pace?   Can they rely on the defense to keep playing out of their minds and hope a successful running game can move them forward?  Personally, I think the Bills are playing on a razors edge and will end up bit.    The Bills really need to consider looking outside of the organization at guys like Eric Bienemy, and Kellen Moore in the offseason to attempt and fix the passing game.  

 

 

[Donuts and Doritos]

Absolute Maybe!

 

Yes on run O.

 

No on pass 0.

 

 

Edited January 2 by Donuts and Doritos

[Gugny]

Yes. 
 

[freddyjj]

I believe the OP left off the W-L percentage under each Off Coord. 

[ColoradoBills]

Yes.

[Comebackkid]

we started winning games. (yes)   this time of year its all that matters.   the next step is if he can get the passing game back into rhythm 

and continue to integrate the running game. 

[Don Otreply]

1 minute ago, freddyjj said:

I believe the OP left off the W-L percentage under each Off Coord. 

Valid point made, 

[Warriorspikes51]

Different.  Not sure if better.

 

it’s critical to scheme Diggs open this week. Put him in motion away from Ramsey whenever possible.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Not at all. 
 

For one thing he had a top 5 offense. It’s hard to be better. It was inconsistent but that’s a Josh Allen offense, always inconsistent. Going to be great at times and average at times.

Edited January 2 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Governor]

They’re the same person.

[Dablitzkrieg]

Running game improvements.   Passing game is horrible still

[kkim0904]

We close out the game with running play.  never worked under Dorsey.  This is what good teams t

do when the game is close.

Edited January 2 by kkim0904

[Big Blitz]

Looking over the stats - 37 runs vs NE against 31 drop backs.  
 

I wonder if Brady sensed this was going to be a game the Pats were daring us to throw and he refused to get baited and limited the INT risk.  Like he just thought this isn’t going to be a 2 or 3 INT game and I know our defense has this under control.  
 

Maybe.  It’s not often you see us run that much.  I know 11 of it was Allen but that counts.  I think felt Allen wasn’t feeling it - that’s part of what an OC has to see in game.  Of course I’d like him to fix it in game.  Who is the coach on field with Allen to get in his face and wake him up?  
 

Same v the Chargers.  
 

Basically, let’s not repeat week 1.  
 

 

I think all that’s happened is we feel we have an upgrade at OC but we need to pump the brakes on he’s a definite solution.  

Edited January 2 by Big Blitz

[ngbills]

Maybe on the same issues just with a different tilt. They still lack rhythm and sustained drives. Brady has benefited from a D that has generated turnovers at a high rate - 13 in the past 6 weeks. They only had 2 in Dorsey’s final 5 weeks. That is huge. 

[Maine-iac]

I'm always going to be in favor of more rushing and less turnovers especially if the points and first downs are the same or better.  If we threw the ball more and had less turnovers I'd be in favor of that.  

[wjag]

If you throw out the outlier game of Dallas, I would say they are not better and might be worse.  Maybe not statistically, but the offense just doesn't look in sync.  These last two games were ugly performance wise.  At a time when the offense should be humming, it just feels like it is sputtering.  Doesn't feel playoff caliber at the moment.  Drops, Diggs getting 5-30, Davis going Missing In Action on the stat sheet, Knox a non-factor, etc all feel off to me.  He gets one more chance this weekend to right the ship against a banged up Miami defense.

[ngbills]

Are we stopping BAL from scoring? Are we stopping KC if they get their act together? Heck HOU and CLE can put up points. I don’t have much confidence a run first attack could keep up. The passing game will be required in the playoffs. Could be wrong and we return to the old days, but playoff football is a different beast. 

[Gman10]

What would you like to see Brady do more of? How much of this is his coaching decision versus our guys not performing to their max ability?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Let’s put it this way. The Joe Brady offense has frustrated me more than the Ken Dorsey offense. Mostly due to the WRs screens. Both had their inconsistency. I think it’s mostly a player issue than a coaching issue. Players too inconsistent. But hey, at least we motion.

 

Dorsey scored 48 vs Miami, good luck Brady. 

Edited January 2 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Dr.Sack]

I just look at our record.

 

With Dorsey 5-5.

With Brady 5-1. Lone loss Brady engineered 34 points. 

 

[FilthyBeast]

49 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

After watching the offense slog along yesterday I wanted to go back and look at the statistics over the last six weeks to see how much of a difference Brady has been.    Looking over the stats, it seems like a bit of a push in terms of offensive success.  What Brady has done better is exactly what McDermott kept harping on "complimentary football."    Brady has taken the air out of the offense and replaced it with ground success, and in doing so, cut down on the turnovers.     

 

Can the Bills keep it up at this pace?   Can they rely on the defense to keep playing out of their minds and hope a successful running game can move them forward?  Personally, I think the Bills are playing on a razors edge and will end up bit.    The Bills really need to consider looking outside of the organization at guys like Eric Bienemy, and Kellen Moore in the offseason to attempt and fix the passing game.  

 

 

 

Against the Jets/Eagles/Chiefs/Cowboys sure, but I think the Brady effect has lost it's luster and this team is pretty much the same one we saw the first 10 games of the year now, at least on offense.

 

And if it's Brady's decision to insist on keep playing guys like Sherfield and (especially) Murray then he has no business being the OC here next year.

 

I think this team needs to get back to basics so to speak real fast against the fish and make Diggs a primary focal point of the passing offense or this season won't go on much longer even if this team makes the playoffs.

[transient]

Regardless of statistical output, I think Brady has been more flexible and adaptable. Ken Dorsey always felt like even if things weren’t working he was going to bash his head against the wall until they did. 

[Cray51]

I find the offense more fluid under Brady.  Dorsey sometimes confused me with why he would make a call and when.  When you look at the teams, Brady hung 35 on the Jets, 34 on the Eagles, 20 on the chiefs, and 31 on the Cowboys.

 

Dorsey missed scoring over 20 points in 3  of his last 5 games, and didn’t get over 30 over his last 6.

 

if you take Dorsey’s last 6 vs Brady’s first 6, it’s a ppg difference of 7 points (21 vs 28). That’s a large change.  It’s a sizable improvement

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, transient said:

Regardless of statistical output, I think Brady has been more flexible and adaptable. Ken Dorsey always felt like even if things weren’t working he was going to bash his head against the wall until they did. 

Flexible and adaptable how? The Bills offense hasn’t been good. My biggest praise to Brady was that he kept running the same running plays vs Dallas. 

[GunnerBill]

I think he has been a bit more creative and a bit more innovative. He has actually simplified some of what Josh is looking at by using motion, shifts and more in breaking routes to gain a leverage advantage and put a single defender in a bind. 

 

That said (and I said this after the Dallas game too) the fundamental issues that have plagued the offense all year have not gone away. They are still there. Not enough separation from receivers vs man. Too many drops. Untimely OL penalties. And the odd inexplicable decision by the QB. Je might have reduced the latter but they are still there.

[billieve420]

25 minutes ago, wjag said:

If you throw out the outlier game of Dallas, I would say they are not better and might be worse.  Maybe not statistically, but the offense just doesn't look in sync.  These last two games were ugly performance wise.  At a time when the offense should be humming, it just feels like it is sputtering.  Doesn't feel playoff caliber at the moment.  Drops, Diggs getting 5-30, Davis going Missing In Action on the stat sheet, Knox a non-factor, etc all feel off to me.  He gets one more chance this weekend to right the ship against a banged up Miami defense.

Other than a game here or there seems to me Offense hasn’t been in sync since the Bye last year. I would revolve the offense primarily around Cook and to a lesser extent Kincaid. Running the ball, screens, swing passes, and splitting him out wide to get him open in space. He is our best player in terms of yards after the catch potential.

 

Knox should be the primary blocking TE and check down option while Kincaid is your intermediate threat. Not sure what is going on with Diggs but getting Cook and Kincaid more involved in the passing offense should help out the WRs.

[thenorthremembers]

1 hour ago, freddyjj said:

I believe the OP left off the W-L percentage under each Off Coord. 

I didnt.  But I also hinted at why I think Brady's approach is working, and it not being sustainable.     Josh is averaging 4 less pass attempts a game since Brady took over.  I honestly don't know if that's considered negligible, or if there has been a real effort to try and make this a more ball control offense.  McDermott has banged the complimentary football drum hard this season.   My worry is when its time for the QB to take over the game, they just wont have it.  

Edited January 2 by thenorthremembers

[RyanC883]

1 hour ago, Gman10 said:

What would you like to see Brady do more of? How much of this is his coaching decision versus our guys not performing to their max ability?

 

I’d like to see less screen passes. They are not working.   

[The Red King]

Also remember, Brady is an interim OC.  This isn't him running his own system.  He's stuck trying to tweak Dorsey's system.

Edited January 2 by The Red King

[Matt_In_NH]

He is better at killing the passing game. 

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

After watching the offense slog along yesterday I wanted to go back and look at the statistics over the last six weeks to see how much of a difference Brady has been.    Looking over the stats, it seems like a bit of a push in terms of offensive success.  What Brady has done better is exactly what McDermott kept harping on "complimentary football."    Brady has taken the air out of the offense and replaced it with ground success, and in doing so, cut down on the turnovers.     

 

Can the Bills keep it up at this pace?   Can they rely on the defense to keep playing out of their minds and hope a successful running game can move them forward?  Personally, I think the Bills are playing on a razors edge and will end up bit.    The Bills really need to consider looking outside of the organization at guys like Eric Bienemy, and Kellen Moore in the offseason to attempt and fix the passing game.  

 

 

I agree with your stats that we haven't been significantly better.

57 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

I find the offense more fluid under Brady.  Dorsey sometimes confused me with why he would make a call and when.  When you look at the teams, Brady hung 35 on the Jets, 34 on the Eagles, 20 on the chiefs, and 31 on the Cowboys.

 

Dorsey missed scoring over 20 points in 3  of his last 5 games, and didn’t get over 30 over his last 6.

 

if you take Dorsey’s last 6 vs Brady’s first 6, it’s a ppg difference of 7 points (21 vs 28). That’s a large change.  It’s a sizable improvement

Maybe fluid until the 2nd half.  We have struggled overall scoring in the 2nd half of games

[transient]

55 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Flexible and adaptable how? The Bills offense hasn’t been good. My biggest praise to Brady was that he kept running the same running plays vs Dallas. 

Do you think the game plan going into the Cowboys game was to just keep running the ball? I would call Brady being aware enough to stick with the run in that game both flexible and adaptable. I think Dorsey was stubborn enough that he probably would have gone with his original gameplan in that game and gone away from the run despite the fact the Cowboys couldn't stop it... he'd done it before. I feel that Brady at least has a feel for how to call a game and a purpose for why he calls plays, something that I don't think was a strength of Dorsey. Don't get me wrong, I don't know that Brady is the answer at OC, I just think he's better than what we had with Dorsey.

[TwistofFate]

Look at the teams we faced under each as well. 

 

KC, Philly, Dallas, etc...brutal stretch.  Plus, Brady wasn't able to implement his own personal touch either.  No training camp, no offseason, nothing. 

 

The difference is huge. 

[Airseven]

Hard to pass judgment on the OCs when the QB continues to miss throws and reads all over the field. 

[sven233]

What I want to know is what happened to getting Cook the ball in the passing game.  Our best offensive games since Brady took over was when Cook was getting the ball in the air.  The last 2 games?  Nothing.....nadda.  They need to start utilizing him again.  I know they tried to hit him on a wheel this week, and I actually think it was there if Josh had waited an extra beat to throw it, but I'm talking about the swings that were leveraging his speed to the sidelines, the play action fake then throw to him over the middle, etc.  All of that seems to have disappeared in the last couple weeks.  I think this would help drag some attention away from Diggs and maybe allow us to get him involved more.  There is a lot more to say about Diggs and his "usage" but I don't want to get sidetracked here.  But getting Cook back involved, especially against slower LBs, should be a priority.

[SoMAn]

So far, Brady hasn’t thrown papers or used his tablet for a fly swatter following a loss. 

[Rubes]

12 minutes ago, sven233 said:

What I want to know is what happened to getting Cook the ball in the passing game.  Our best offensive games since Brady took over was when Cook was getting the ball in the air.  The last 2 games?  Nothing.....nadda.  They need to start utilizing him again.  I know they tried to hit him on a wheel this week, and I actually think it was there if Josh had waited an extra beat to throw it, but I'm talking about the swings that were leveraging his speed to the sidelines, the play action fake then throw to him over the middle, etc.  All of that seems to have disappeared in the last couple weeks.  I think this would help drag some attention away from Diggs and maybe allow us to get him involved more.  There is a lot more to say about Diggs and his "usage" but I don't want to get sidetracked here.  But getting Cook back involved, especially against slower LBs, should be a priority.

 

Been wondering this as well. Hard to believe that Cook has all but disappeared from the passing game, even for simple dump offs.

 

[PayDaBill$]

I’d like to see  Cook utilized in the passing game more, & utilize Shakir like Beasley. Maybe that would open up Gabe and Diggs down the field.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

35 minutes ago, transient said:

Do you think the game plan going into the Cowboys game was to just keep running the ball? I would call Brady being aware enough to stick with the run in that game both flexible and adaptable. I think Dorsey was stubborn enough that he probably would have gone with his original gameplan in that game and gone away from the run despite the fact the Cowboys couldn't stop it... he'd done it before. I feel that Brady at least has a feel for how to call a game and a purpose for why he calls plays, something that I don't think was a strength of Dorsey. Don't get me wrong, I don't know that Brady is the answer at OC, I just think he's better than what we had with Dorsey.

I don’t think Brady is a better OC. I think some people want him to be better so they can be right. They call the game differently and have different tendencies, but a lot of the same inconsistencies. The lack of Diggs is alarming.  It’s a huge concern for me.  I don’t think Knox’s return has helped. 

Edited January 2 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Cash]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I think he has been a bit more creative and a bit more innovative. He has actually simplified some of what Josh is looking at by using motion, shifts and more in breaking routes to gain a leverage advantage and put a single defender in a bind. 

 

That said (and I said this after the Dallas game too) the fundamental issues that have plagued the offense all year have not gone away. They are still there. Not enough separation from receivers vs man. Too many drops. Untimely OL penalties. And the odd inexplicable decision by the QB. Je might have reduced the latter but they are still there.

Pros: Allen has his fire back, and so does the rest of the team. Playcalling has been better, especially on key 3rd/4th downs and short yardage. (Whaddaya know? Turns out Allen sneaking from the 1 is basically unstoppable. Dorsey was the only person not to realize this.) The offense has felt more consistent, or maybe less inconsistent. 
 

Cons: The offensive swoons haven’t completely disappeared. Drops remain a huge problem. Last week’s INT was very similar to a lot of the INTs under Dorsey - 1 defender was essentially able to cover 2 receivers, and made Allen pay for it. (I don’t know if that’s bad play design, bad WR coaching, bad OC coaching, lack of cohesion between OC & WR coach, Allen’s tendencies being too obvious, or some combination, but it’s clearly a systemic issue this year.) 

 

I don’t know enough about the ins and outs of coordinating an NFL offense to know how many of the cons even *could* be addressed by an in-season interim OC. I do think that the pros are due to a change in offensive leadership, and Brady should get credit there.
 

I’m reasonably optimistic about Brady, but I think this is about the best he can do for this season. Our best game can still beat anyone, but it’s a bigger struggle now to put that best game together. 

Edited January 2 by Cash