Mac Jones Intentional Grounding - Should it have been a safety?

[Billsfan1972]

He was in the process of falling to the ground in the end zone.

 

Yes his feet were in the field of play but to me that should have been called a safety as the play if completed would have been a sack in the endzone.

 

Should thie rule be changed (yes probably a 1 in 100,000 occurance).

Edited December 3, 2022 by Billsfan1972

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

He likely only did that because he knew it was going to avoid a safety so I’m not sure a rule change would’ve mattered there. 
 

if he took a sack in that same spot it would’ve been the same result but he would’ve taken an unnecessary hit 

[PatsFanNH]

7 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

He was in the process of falling to the ground in the end zone.

 

Yes his feet were in the field of play but to me that should have been called a safety as the play if completed would have been a sack in the endzone.

 

Should thie rule be changed (yes probably a 1 in 100,000 occurance.

I actually thought Jones was smart taking the intentional grounding there. It saved a safety possibly if the refs saw it wrong. (I do believe it is where the process of the tackle started as that’s his forward progress is the 1, so no safety.)

 

He also probably did it so he didn’t get duplexes again by the Bills D. Lol (shocked that wasn’t flagged with how the refs been lately when you hit a QB. No I don’t say it should have been just saying how they been called lately that usually gets a flag.)

Edited December 3, 2022 by PatsFanNH

[fergie's ire]

And if he is falling backwards (as he was), forward progress would be outside the end zone and not a safety.

[Scott7975]

His feet were outside the endzone.  Thats forward progress.  No its not a safety

[Billsfan1972]

5 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

His feet were outside the endzone.  Thats forward progress.  No its not a safety

 We all agree on that. I was making the point the he was in the process of falling down in the endzone which is where they should have marked the ball which is then a safety.

 

 Yes the call was right however to me it would've been a safety

[Big Turk]

36 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

He was in the process of falling to the ground in the end zone.

 

Yes his feet were in the field of play but to me that should have been called a safety as the play if completed would have been a sack in the endzone.

 

Should thie rule be changed (yes probably a 1 in 100,000 occurance.

 

Never going to get that call as a safety in that situation. The entire body and ball need to be inside the endzone and that wasn't close IMO.

[Scott7975]

39 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

 We all agree on that. I was making the point the he was in the process of falling down in the endzone which is where they should have marked the ball which is then a safety.

 

 Yes the call was right however to me it would've been a safety

 

That wouldnt have mattered.  Even if tackled with the ball its still not a safety.  To be a safety he would have had to run into the endzone on his own accord then either got tackled or intentionally grounded the ball.  Otherwise its forward progress. 

 

Think of it in the same situation as the open field.  Lets say a reciever catches the ball right at the first down marker and the tackler hits him and he falls backwards a yard of the first down marker.  He still gets the first down.  Thats how forward progress works.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Scott7975

[davefan66]

Nope.  Feet were in the field of play when he threw the ball.

[Southern_Bills]

The way they generously give forward movement these days, don't be so sure the sack would have been counted a safety either.

 

But at the end of the day, taking a penalty to avoid a worse outcome is not illegal.

[NewEra]

Heady play by mac

[skibum]

23 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

That wouldnt have mattered.  Even if tackled with the ball its still not a safety.  To be a safety he would have had to run into the endzone on his own accord then either got tackled or intentionally grounded the ball.  Otherwise its forward progress. 

 

Not sure I agree with that - If that was the case, then wouldn't they place the ball at the line of scrimmage any time the QB gets sacked? Or does it become forward progress if he drops back, then moves forward?

[Codyny13]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

 We all agree on that. I was making the point the he was in the process of falling down in the endzone which is where they should have marked the ball which is then a safety.

 

 Yes the call was right however to me it would've been a safety

Josh Allen was in the process of going out of bounds when he threw a td. Should that be just a dead play bc he’s on his way out? I’m not trying to be condescending but we can’t call plays bc what’s going to happen next. 

[Billsatlastin2018]

Facts:

 

1) It was not a Safety.

2) L’il Mac is a very average QB, who will never amount to anything!

[Boatdrinks]

No. He’d have to be entirely in the end zone at the time and e clearly wasn’t. Easy call 

[TheBrownBear]

Just rewatched the play and now I understand what the OP is saying.  Mac Jones is actually falling back into the end zone on his own accord before any contact is made by a defender.  He does release the ball outside of the end zone and before Groot gets to him, so obviously no safety, but if he holds onto it instead there appears to have been a decent chance he would have fallen flat on his azz in the end zone before being touched.  So yes, the throwaway conceivably could have saved the two points there.

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

 

 Yes the call was right however to me it would've been a safety

Uh huh. “To you.” So what? If you know the call was right what are you even proposing here then? The rule be changed? So you want to change the rule to add even more subjectivity to its enforcement. If you had your way, then the ref crews are now obligated to determine whether or not the guy would have fallen into the endzone, regardless of when and where he released the pass. 
 

think about that for a second. 

[Scott7975]

33 minutes ago, skibum said:

Not sure I agree with that - If that was the case, then wouldn't they place the ball at the line of scrimmage any time the QB gets sacked? Or does it become forward progress if he drops back, then moves forward?

 

Because the QB drops back.  The ball is placed to where he drops back and gets sacked.  When you are talking end zone it's where his feet are at.  He didnt drop back into the endzone.

[MPT]

This was one of the few calls the refs got right in the game. His feet were in front of the goal line when he threw the ball so no safety. There's never any "if the play had continued..." speculation involved in sports because nobody can know what would have happened.

[QLBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

He was in the process of falling to the ground in the end zone.

 

Yes his feet were in the field of play but to me that should have been called a safety as the play if completed would have been a sack in the endzone.

 

Should thie rule be changed (yes probably a 1 in 100,000 occurance.

Not a safety. His feet were clearly outside the EZ. Ball in the EZ does not matter. 

[mbs]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

Never going to get that call as a safety in that situation. The entire body and ball need to be inside the endzone and that wasn't close IMO.

I don't know where they spot the ball in a grounding call but at that spot, the entire ball must be in the field of play or it is considered to be in the endzone and is a safety. 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

 We all agree on that. I was making the point the he was in the process of falling down in the endzone which is where they should have marked the ball which is then a safety.

 

 Yes the call was right however to me it would've been a safety

It’s not a safety …the  Tackle started in the field of play … and he got knocked into the endzone 

 

that’s completely different and never been a safety in football 

1 hour ago, skibum said:

Not sure I agree with that - If that was the case, then wouldn't they place the ball at the line of scrimmage any time the QB gets sacked? Or does it become forward progress if he drops back, then moves forward?

Forward progress has been the same for sacking a quarterback for a long long long time

 

Unless the quarterback is actively fighting off the sack attempt like Josh Allen… Like stiff arming and running backwards

 

The ball gets marked where the sack started … Of course a 300 pound dude is going to knock a quarterback backwards a couple yards… but it’s marked where it starts unless he’s actively trying to break the tackle 

[mbs]

It wasn't a sack and it wasn't a tackle, it was intentional grounding.

 

All I see on that page is: "if the passer is in his end zone when the ball is thrown, it is a safety." But I still don't know how they spot the ball in this case.

Edited December 3, 2022 by mbs

[co_springs_billsfan]

1 hour ago, TheBrownBear said:

Just rewatched the play and now I understand what the OP is saying.  Mac Jones is actually falling back into the end zone on his own accord before any contact is made by a defender.  He does release the ball outside of the end zone and before Groot gets to him, so obviously no safety, but if he holds onto it instead there appears to have been a decent chance he would have fallen flat on his azz in the end zone before being touched.  So yes, the throwaway conceivably could have saved the two points there.

Agreed.  A few people have mentioned forward progress in their responses but if untouched and moving back on ones own there is no forward progress.

[MJS]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

 We all agree on that. I was making the point the he was in the process of falling down in the endzone which is where they should have marked the ball which is then a safety.

 

 Yes the call was right however to me it would've been a safety

Even if he fell down in the end zone, it would not have been a safety. His forward progress would have him down at the 1.

[mbs]

I don't even know how to look up how to spot a ball in this situation. Is it where the ball is when he begins his throwing motion, where it left his hand, where his feet were, framework of the body?

 

If he were contacted, wouldn't there be a sack credited? Either way, I don't think it matters. If a defender hits a qb and the qb falls backwards, the spot of the fumble (say it's 4th down) would not be the spot of the contact and I would assume intentional grounding would be the same.

[skibum]

This would make a great episode of 'YOU Make the Call'. 

[Ya Digg?]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

 We all agree on that. I was making the point the he was in the process of falling down in the endzone which is where they should have marked the ball which is then a safety.

 

 Yes the call was right however to me it would've been a safety

Your whole logic doesn’t make sense. You admit he is outside of the endzone, you admit that the call was right, but you still think it should have been a safety? 

[loyal2dagame]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

He was in the process of falling to the ground in the end zone.

 

Yes his feet were in the field of play but to me that should have been called a safety as the play if completed would have been a sack in the endzone.

 

Should thie rule be changed (yes probably a 1 in 100,000 occurance.

All this lets change the rules crap needs to stop. 

Play within the rules on the books and if you lose, or a rule causes some negative result,  take it like a man. Be a good loser and a better winner. 

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

He was in the process of falling to the ground in the end zone.

 

Yes his feet were in the field of play but to me that should have been called a safety as the play if completed would have been a sack in the endzone.

 

Should thie rule be changed (yes probably a 1 in 100,000 occurance.

As much as I wanted a safety, ( and I wanted it a lot) it wasn’t a safety, the little pip squeak did the right thing at that moment, damn him! 
 

Go Bills!!!

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Once the season is over I think all Bills fans need to get their eyes checked.  It just amazes me how seem to see every call some how is wrong (even up for discussion) and is questioned.  

[Stank_Nasty]

It 100% shouldn’t have been a safety. Never once did I think it should have been. Why was a thread started on this when it’s obvious as hell…

 

*checks Name of OP*… Ohhhh. That explains it. 

[Billzgobowlin]

4 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

He was in the process of falling to the ground in the end zone.

 

Yes his feet were in the field of play but to me that should have been called a safety as the play if completed would have been a sack in the endzone.

 

Should thie rule be changed (yes probably a 1 in 100,000 occurance.

Seems like we have been getting a lot of this the past year...

[Matt_In_NH]

I thought it was the correct call.

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

It was probably his best pass of the night.

[billsfan_34]

4 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

He was in the process of falling to the ground in the end zone.

 

Yes his feet were in the field of play but to me that should have been called a safety as the play if completed would have been a sack in the endzone.

 

Should thie rule be changed (yes probably a 1 in 100,000 occurance.

 No- he was in the field of play (not endzone) when the foul occurred.

[djp14150]

5 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

He was in the process of falling to the ground in the end zone.

 

Yes his feet were in the field of play but to me that should have been called a safety as the play if completed would have been a sack in the endzone.

 

Should thie rule be changed (yes probably a 1 in 100,000 occurance.

no

 

its market where he did it

[PrimeTime101]

no. moving on

[The Wiz]

Let's ask Mcorkle what he thinks:

 

Mcorkle: "OH MY GOD GET HIM AWAY FROM ME!""

[Success]

Mac Jones is a bust.  Pats fans were going bananas about that guy all offseason - "best QB of that class!  First to practice, last to leave!"

 

He's fine when opposing defenses get zero pressure on him (i.e. Vikes game). He can pass well in an immaculate pocket.  

 

As to the OP - it was the right call.  Safeties are kind of hard to get - I've seen so many borderline like that & it always goes as a non-safety. You have to get a guy IN the EZ, with his feet and the ball clearly behind the plane.