Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[Warcodered]

48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Where did the Giants admit to it? 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/01/giants-brian-flores-was-a-serious-candidate-we-hired-the-coach-we-felt-was-most-qualified/

Flores contends that the interview was a sham, but the Giants responded by saying that Flores was a serious candidate for the job.

“We are pleased and confident with the process that resulted in the hiring of Brian Daboll,” the statement said. “We interviewed an impressive and diverse group of candidates. The fact of the matter is, Brian Flores was in the conversation to be our head coach until the eleventh hour. Ultimately, we hired the individual we felt was most qualified to be our next head coach.”

Bills defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier, Giants defensive coordinator Patrick Graham, Cowboys defensive coordinator Dan Quinn, and Bengals defensive coordinator Lou Anarumo also interviewed for the Giants before Daboll was hired. Frazier and Graham are Black and the NFL’s Rooney Rule requires teams to interview at least two external minority candidates for head coaching openings but Flores’ suit contends that they were not under real consideration for the job.

 

Unless we know exactly what Belichick heard and from whom, we really don't know that the Giants, in fact, made a hiring decision prior to Flores interview.

And if they did, they very likely won't admit to it.

 

On Pro Football Talk, Mike Florio claims that most owners (75%) already know who they want to hire next before they make their decision to fire the current coach.  That would make most interview processes an "equal opportunity sham": both the white and the minority candidates are working with a stacked deck where the winning card is already known.  I think this is still true in some cases (Raiders hiring Gruden; Jacksonville hiring Urban), but in others, the process is more open and a legitimate open search is conducted.  (I don't think the Pegulas knew they wanted to hire McDermott when they fired Ryan, for example).

 

My guess would be that Mara legitimately was very interested in hiring Flores, and had his FO people talking to Flores (for example, the Jan 11 text conversation where McDonnell supposedly said that Daboll might leave Buffalo for a lateral move).    But once they hired Joe Schoen as GM, he  may have stipulated for a strong voice or maybe the deciding voice in hiring the HC, and he had a different set of names that started with Brian Daboll, and included Leslie Frazier.  TBH, I think Schoen wanted an offensive guy, and Daboll was his top choice - and actually, the only offensive coach they interviewed.

 

 

If they'd already interviewed Frazier and Graham then they didn't have to interview Florez at all, maybe they wasted his time but it wouldn't really be because of the Rooney Rule.

 

Oh external never mind.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Warcodered

[QLBillsFan]

21 % of HC since the Rooney Rule began are have been minorities. So that’s interesting. 

[Watching since 1964]

Last week the topic of why Flores still didn’t have a HC position came up with Peter King and Mike Florio.

 

Around the 5min10 mark it starts. 

 

‘’

For King the major sticking point was ‘the personality stuff’ such as  4 OC’s, 4 QB coaches and 4 OL coaches in 3 years. 

 

I think it was Doug Gottlieb who said “If you can’t get along with Chris Grier, you can’t get along with anybody.”

[Hapless Bills Fan]

24 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Of course I mostly agree with you here. But..when you say "we" are aware of the situation already, who all is included in that collective? Because I've read posters in this thread who absolutely DO agree with it, and I've read those who do NOT. My point is that there is NOT yet a consensus that equitable representation and opportunity is a problem in the NFL.

 

I don't think there will ever be consensus on any issue, and it's pretty typical that the loudest voices are not necessarily the majority view.

 

That said when I say "we all know what's going on", I think that even people who don't believe that equitable NFL coach hiring is a problem, would, if questioned about some specific cases, admit that they recognize the coaching choice was pre-determined and any interview process of other candidates was a sham.

 

Jon Gruden being hired as the HC of the Raiders would be one example.

 

That's what I mean by saying "we already know it (sham interviews where the hire is known) is going on".

 

3 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

21 % of HC since the Rooney Rule began are have been minorities. So that’s interesting. 

 

I'm not doubting you, but that's a much higher figure than I've seen elsewhere - can you share your source?

 

And of course, right now there is only one (Tomlin) - and a couple of recently hired minority HC's were fired after 1 year, which many people regard as way too short of a time to have a fair chance at building a team and culture.

[Richard Noggin]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think there will ever be consensus on any issue, and it's pretty typical that the loudest voices are not necessarily the majority view.

 

That said when I say "we all know what's going on", I think that even people who don't believe that equitable NFL coach hiring is a problem, would, if questioned about some specific cases, admit that they recognize the coaching choice was pre-determined and any interview process of other candidates was a sham.

 

Jon Gruden being hired as the HC of the Raiders would be one example.

 

That's what I mean by saying "we already know it (sham interviews where the hire is known) is going on".

Okay, the agreement "we" have is that the Rooney Rule forces "sham" or "token" interviews, rather than the lack of representation is a serious problem requiring solutions. I don't disagree with that assessment of general fan sentiment. 

[SydneyBillsFan]

10 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Those texts from belichick holy ***** how do you get that wrong! 

 

Ummmm....they're both fat and bald?

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

How does a coach tank?

 

Prepare poorly? The players would have to be in on it you'd think. 

The most obvious way would've been to start Josh Rosen the entire season in 2019.  Flores didn't do that though and inserted Fitzpatrick after Rosen struggled.

[Doc Brown]

37 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Okay, the agreement "we" have is that the Rooney Rule forces "sham" or "token" interviews, rather than the lack of representation is a serious problem requiring solutions. I don't disagree with that assessment of general fan sentiment. 

It does in some instances but I'm sure there have been black coaches who wowed in interviews and got a job who wouldn't have gotten the interview without the Rooney rule in place.  I think something like the Rooney rule is needed as this idea that a private business hiring practices will overcome racial or other biases and naturally go to some sort of meritocracy utopia is naive.  They'll continue to tweak it as it's not going away.

[Utah John]

This does point out the silliness of the Rooney Rule as it currently stands.  Teams know whom they want to hire, yet they're required to waste the time and effort of several other people to pretend anyone else has a shot.

 

Overall, the black HCs have done about as well as the white HCs.  Tomlin is an excellent HC.  Caldwell had great success.  Flores himself did a great job pulling the Dolphins up from being terrible to being not that bad -- although he didn't seem to be getting anywhere moving beyond that level.  But there have been so few black HCs that the sample size isn't representative of their skill.

 

The rule about how if you have a minority coach on your staff and you lose him to another team, then you get extra draft picks -- now THAT'S something that should help get more black coaches into the game.  And yet it still doesn't seem to be working.  

[purple haze]

10 hours ago, Buffalo619 said:

Rooney rule needs to go. Hire on talent and experience. Leave race out of it. 

Why is there a Rooney Rule in the first place?   Ask yourself that.

[stuvian]

the NFL will circle the wagons and Flores will get Kaepernicked. No one tells billionaires what to do. 

 

The Rooney rule all but assures that teams will interview candidates they don't intend to hire. 

 

Flores would have been a very bankable HC candidate for the remaining openings. Do you think Arians will stick around now that Brady is gone? 

 

This lawsuit just reinforces his reputation as a hot head who can't work with people. Were the Broncos racist when they hired Vance Joseph?  

[Nihilarian]

23 minutes ago, stuvian said:

the NFL will circle the wagons and Flores will get Kaepernicked. No one tells billionaires what to do. 

 

The Rooney rule all but assures that teams will interview candidates they don't intend to hire. 

 

Flores would have been a very bankable HC candidate for the remaining openings. Do you think Arians will stick around now that Brady is gone? 

 

This lawsuit just reinforces his reputation as a hot head who can't work with people. Were the Broncos racist when they hired Vance Joseph?  

Good point! I think the man just Kaepernick'd himself...

 

He will never have another NFL HCing job again. Shame too, because he was a pretty good NFL HC taking that Dolphins team to a 10-6 record. Sweeping the Patriots is never easy.

 

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

With all the dumb stuff that happened in Miami I wouldn't seriously interview him either. That's just because of his actions. 

[KDIGGZ]

Why hasn't any former players filed a class action suit against the NFL and NBA? These leagues need more diversity and representation among players. If I was cut by either league I would definitely sue. Once you get to a certain level of athletics it's all pretty shady how certain players make it and others don't when you are all so closely talented and a lot of times it's based on how well the scouts think you will continue to develop and not about how good you are currently. Doesn't seem fair. Clearly there is a bias towards certain demographics of players for whatever reason, one of which is perceived athleticism.

[davefan66]

I think we can all agree that Flores has committed career suicide as it pertains to the NFL.
 

What drove him to it?  And why now?  I wonder if in interviews he was asked the tough questions about inability to work with others?  Does the Rooney Rule have more to do with his actions, even more than he has let on?  Did Ross get in the ears of other owners?  Whatever the reason, he decided that doing this now was more important to him than ever coaching in the NFL again.  I do applaud his convictions and standing up for what he believes.

 

The ramifications of this bombshell lawsuit won’t go away anytime soon.

 

1.  Ross and his ownership.  NFL will certainly look into the allegations of tank for pay.  If Ross did make that offer, what other shady things has he done?  You don’t wake up one morning and suddenly change your morale compass and offer the HC of your team 100 grand per loss unless you are a dirtbag to begin with.  At the very least there will be monetary and possibly draft pick fines.  In the end,  I don’t know how Ross survives this.

 

2.  Rooney Rule.  On the face of it, seemed like a good way to get minorities a foot in the door where they may not have had a chance previously.  In practice, it probably did not fully do what was intended.  Yes, it’s great to get your name bandied around as a HC or coordinator candidate.  It may help you later.  Problem is, most coaching replacements are picked even before the old coach is fired.  That doesn’t mean the Rooney interviews are shams per se, but are likely not going to lead to HC jobs.  
 

There needs to be a deep cultural change regarding racism before something like the Rooney Rule will have its intended effect.  I guess if there were less racism, we wouldn’t need rules like that.

[nucci]

4 hours ago, FireChans said:

Flores wasn't good as a head coach. And he hated his black QB. His owner chose the black QB over the black coach.

 

Flores is not going to win. He is torpedoing his career for nothing. A former Bills AGM wanted to hire a former Bills OC with an impressive resume because he had worked with him. That former Bills AGM did his due diligence in interviewing other candidates because that's what a good manager would do. But he wanted Daboll and he hired him. 

 

The rest is just smear and hearsay.

fired after 10-6 and 9-8 records....

[JaCrispy]

You sure it’s not Brian Daboll who is suing the NFL? 😉

[1ManRaid]

When Flores got those texts from Belichick, he shouldn't have revealed who he was.  He should have gotten additional details from BB on who specifically gave him that info and what was said, to secure evidence.  Then send it to the league like "woops, looks like the Giants hired their new HC without satisfying the Rooney Rule first".

 

Might be possible the league demands BB's cell to get his call/text records to investigate the claims.  See if another phone gets destroyed like Brady.

 

*edit*

I also wouldn't put it past BB to have leaked that info on purpose in some kind of 4D chess move lol.

Edited February 2, 2022 by 1ManRaid

[Lfod]

I want to clarify that I know this topic has many avenues and lanes to travel down and I am not interested in going in any of those directions because I feel neutral in most of those topics slightly agreeing and disagreeing with everything. 

 

Although one big issue I have with the situation specifically is that this guy was indeed hired as a minority head coach and served as a head coach for an NFL team and is a shining example of the fact it can and does happen so I don't feel sorry for him honestly in some respects. He was the thing he is complaining about not being given a fair chance to be so it's case closed for me. 

 

Although if he does have evidence of some claims he made about Miami I think it's a good thing to expose that.

 

If he does have specific evidence that he wasn't hired by an NFL team specifically because of his race such as a witness or text message I will respect that for sure but just because you got passed over doesn't mean it was racially motivated. 

 

I am in no way saying there isn't a problem to be debated about around hiring head coaches, I am just saying I don't think it was a problem for this guy and isn't a problem now unless he has something concrete to show that he hasn't yet. 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Lfod

[Buffalo_Stampede]

29 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

 

*edit*

I also wouldn't put it past BB to have leaked that info on purpose in some kind of 4D chess move lol.

Belichick would know exactly how Flores would react also. 

[1ManRaid]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Belichick would know exactly how Flores would react also. 

 

And he does have an adversarial history with the Giants and Bills...  😆

Edited February 2, 2022 by 1ManRaid

[Ayjent]

This a law firm that is attempting to cash in on PR and spin to force a settlement while taking advantage of someone who is rightfully disgruntled by experiences over the past few years that are ugly.  Thing is that the only winner in this will be the law firm representing Flores because they aren’t interest in social justice or anything like it - this is great publicity for them and has them sitting pretty to get this settled ASAP to prevent further damage to the integrity of the NFL.  As a Bills fan Ross is a gem bc he ensures dysfunction for the Dolphins, but as a person he is a huge POS that deserves all of the bad press he receives.  To those thinking Ross will lose the team see Washington FT and Dan Snyder.  Not likely IMO.

 

Flores is going to be lucky to land anything higher than a DC position in his next gig and no team right now is going to take on the circus that follows him.  It’ll be at least a year before someone goes there, if ever.  And that is the unfortunate part.  He’s a pretty damn good coach that was winning in spite of the organization.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Ayjent

[JoPoy88]

4 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

This a law firm that is attempting to cash in on PR and spin to force a settlement while taking advantage of someone who is rightfully disgruntled by experiences over the past few years that are ugly.  Thing is that the only winner in this will be the law firm representing Flores because they aren’t interest in social justice or anything like it - this is great publicity for them and has them sitting pretty to get this settled ASAP to prevent further damage to the integrity of the NFL.  As a Bills fan Ross is a gem bc he ensures dysfunction for the Dolphins, but as a person he is a huge POS that deserves all of the bad press he receives.  To those thinking Ross will lose the team see Washington FT and Dan Snyder.  Not likely IMO.

Widgor isn’t some shady firm trying to make a name for themselves. They’re heavy hitters. 

[Ayjent]

Just now, JoPoy88 said:

Widgor isn’t some shady firm trying to make a name for themselves. They’re heavy hitters. 

I’m not saying they don’t know what they’re doing.  I’m saying they are self-interested in the best result for themselves not their client, which is already very obvious.

[JoPoy88]

Just now, Ayjent said:

I’m not saying they don’t know what they’re doing.  I’m saying they are self-interested in the best result for themselves not their client, which is already very obvious.

In what way is that obvious? These guys represented Harvey Weinstein victims and sued Fox News for sexual harassment. What suggests that they take all these cases solely out of self-interest? 

[Ayjent]

Just now, JoPoy88 said:

In what way is that obvious? These guys represented Harvey Weinstein victims and sued Fox News for sexual harassment. What suggests that they take all these cases solely out of self-interest? 

The results of basically nuking his career in the NFL and a lot of divisive publicity that will forever surround him.  There are better and more practical legal strategies that don’t go full PR blitz while still seeking to address issues.  I do it all the time in my labor law practice and I would never advise my client against their interests as an ethical matter.  None of the legal strategies here help his long term career.  But I will say that I don’t know what Flores motives are in all of this, but for a guy that clearly wanted to be a NFL head coach and seemed to take the high road before reaching a tipping point that goal seems unlikely anytime soon, and he is likely clouded by his frustration.

[PatsFanNH]

8 hours ago, SCBills said:

I mean, we all know it’s a sham.  
 

If Belichick said he’s leaving New England and wants to go to the Giants as HC.  We really thinking they’re interviewing people like Flores in good faith?  It’s all performative.. They wanted Daboll, from at least when Schoen was hired.  Guess they should’ve hidden it better?

 

 

What is that REAL change?

 

Forced minority hires?  I mean, what else can they do but mandate teams interview minority candidates.   Giants wanted Daboll, should they hire someone else because Daboll’s white?
 

If it makes you feel better, that happens quite a bit in corporate America. 
 

(Fwiw, I don’t think Flores should’ve been fired in the first place, but I can’t really get on board with all this outrage)

 

 

Maybe say every team has to have 1 minority assistant coaches. (That means 1 out of all the position coaches,DC,Special teams coaches, and OC and HC.) So if nothing else maybe promoting getting more QUALIFIED  candidates to be a HC in the future? It’s just an idea.

[ProcessYaDigg]

15 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

How long until we get sued for the two sham interviews we did for OC

This is the problem with the Rooney rule.  There wasn't any competition for the OC job.  I believe all along that the Bills were gonna promote Dorsey no matter what. He is there guy.  But because of the Rooney rule, they had to do their due diligence and interview 2 minority coaches.  All teams do this.  For the most part, they already have their guy in mind on who they want to hire, therefore, this rule gives too much false hope and actually does more harm then good. 

[bmur66]

The Rooney Rule is racist. You can't eliminate racism by being racist. 

[Coach Tuesday]

36 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

Widgor isn’t some shady firm trying to make a name for themselves. They’re heavy hitters. 

False, their MO is to litigate in the press.  They do not have a good reputation in terms of accuracy or ethics.  They only half care about winning in the courtroom for their client - they also are brand-obsessed and love litigating in the press.  As I said upthread, I would not be surprised to see many of these allegations eventually walked back.

Just now, bmur66 said:

The Rooney Rule is racist. You can't eliminate racism by being racist. 

Terrible take.

21 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

The results of basically nuking his career in the NFL and a lot of divisive publicity that will forever surround him.  There are better and more practical legal strategies that don’t go full PR blitz while still seeking to address issues.  I do it all the time in my labor law practice and I would never advise my client against their interests as an ethical matter.  None of the legal strategies here help his long term career.  But I will say that I don’t know what Flores motives are in all of this, but for a guy that clearly wanted to be a NFL head coach and seemed to take the high road before reaching a tipping point that goal seems unlikely anytime soon, and he is likely clouded by his frustration.

Again this is not atypical for Wigdor - I’ve seen them often pursue strategies that are bad for their clients but good for their own brand.  When I first read the Complaint it struck me as another example of that.

[CoudyBills]

12 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

They have to interview two external minority candidates for a HC opening though.

They may have screwed up then.  Should have interviewed Patrick Graham sooner.  Frazier and Graham were never going to be hired for the position.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, 1ManRaid said:

When Flores got those texts from Belichick, he shouldn't have revealed who he was.  He should have gotten additional details from BB on who specifically gave him that info and what was said, to secure evidence.  Then send it to the league like "woops, looks like the Giants hired their new HC without satisfying the Rooney Rule first".

 

Might be possible the league demands BB's cell to get his call/text records to investigate the claims.  See if another phone gets destroyed like Brady.

 

*edit*

I also wouldn't put it past BB to have leaked that info on purpose in some kind of 4D chess move lol.

Ultimately, even if the giants were into daboll, the argument for the league for years is that their goal was to get more guys in the process - both for experience and for the possibility of surprising the team and changing their plans. 
 

Unless they had signatures from daboll - it’s possible he could’ve still ended up in Miami even.

 

that said, Flores being frustrated with feeling like a token interview is also fair. 

[eball]

7 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

There something like 14 black head coaches out of 130 FBS college football schools.

 

How many black offensive coordinators do you think there are.

 

It's not an NFL problem. College football is even worse when you think about boosters and alumni basically making the hires. 

 

 

 

I hate to bring up that whole “systemic” thing, but when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

 

[ALF]

Keep the two 3rd rd picks reward but don't mandate what could be viewed as token interviews.

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, nucci said:

fired after 10-6 and 9-8 records....

Doug Marrone walked away after 9–7 and couldn’t get a job.

 

Being difficult to work with matters. Being crappy to your top 5 pick at QB would scare away teams who want you to *gasp* develop a QB.

 

The Maras love Daniel Jones. Knowing what you know about Tua and Flores, why the ***** would you hire that guy?

[JoPoy88]

43 minutes ago, Ayjent said:

The results of basically nuking his career in the NFL and a lot of divisive publicity that will forever surround him.  There are better and more practical legal strategies that don’t go full PR blitz while still seeking to address issues.  I do it all the time in my labor law practice and I would never advise my client against their interests as an ethical matter.  None of the legal strategies here help his long term career.  But I will say that I don’t know what Flores motives are in all of this, but for a guy that clearly wanted to be a NFL head coach and seemed to take the high road before reaching a tipping point that goal seems unlikely anytime soon, and he is likely clouded by his frustration.

Agree I don’t know exactly what Flores’ motivations are either or if he went along with this strategy clear-headed. I just don’t see any evidence that Wigdor is purposely fireballing his career to maximize exposure to gain clout. They may honestly believe it’s the best strategy against entities like the NFL. 

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, JoPoy88 said:

Agree I don’t know exactly what Flores’ motivations are either or if he went along with this strategy clear-headed. I just don’t see any evidence that Wigdor is purposely fireballing his career to maximize exposure to gain clout. They may honestly believe it’s the best strategy against entities like the NFL. 

More likely they believe it’s the best strategy for enhancing their own brand.

[Sharky7337]

9 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

The miami roster in 2019 was without question the worst in the league with regard to talent. Pretending otherwise is just bias. The fact that he went 5-11 with a 1-15 team (talent-wise) and was competitive the entire second half of the season was good coaching, and everyone in the NFL knew it. Re: your line above, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

That's great but what about this year's start?

[JoPoy88]

Just now, Coach Tuesday said:

More likely they believe it’s the best strategy for enhancing their own brand.

Definitely possible. And their past cases did garner publicity. I guess without knowing exactly what Flores’ goals are with this it’s hard to tell if how they’re going about is foolish or not. If he wants to embarrass the league at all costs, for example, going with these guys and their playbook makes some sense.

 

I did see this morning that his lawyers are appearing on the Today show today, so there’s that.

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

Definitely possible. And their past cases did garner publicity. I guess without knowing exactly what Flores’ goals are with this it’s hard to tell if how they’re going about is foolish or not. If he wants to embarrass the league at all costs, for example, going with these guys and their playbook makes some sense.

 

I did see this morning that his lawyers are appearing on the Today show today, so there’s that.

They publish their complaints on Twitter as soon as they file them.  The first page is always drafted to generate max publicity.  It’s impressive but it’s also very much a strategy.