Joe Marino Breaks Down Pressures on Allen, blames quite a bit on pocket management

[Airseven]

Can't hide behind "preseason" when these issues were apparent last year. The Steelers game was just more of the same.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

He's right

 

If what this team needs is for Allen to improve there is little hope of progressing 

None sense… we just need 2020 Allen back

[SWATeam]

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

None sense… we just need 2020 Allen back

Doesn't look like Daboll will be available anytime soon

[BullBuchanan]

2 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

I think that its because they told him that he couldn't run in a PS game and you can't take running out of JA's game. It just throws the whole thing off. I think that just knowing that he has the option to take off helps him stay in there and complete plays.

If they didn't take the running out of the gameplan, he probably would have held the ball even longer.

[Heitz]

11 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Can't hide behind "preseason" when these issues were apparent last year. The Steelers game was just more of the same.

 

Yes and we were terrible last year, lucking into a 13 - 3 record...  

[co_springs_billsfan]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Joe Marino did a play-by-play breakdown of the pressure on Josh and found that a lot of it was on Josh himself. Backing up into rushers who had been directed too deep around him without any pressure forcing that backup. Leaving clean pockets. And so on.

 

 

It's in the first ten minutes.

 

Here's an example of one play that was not Allen's fault according to Joe:  "#4 you had a completion to Stefon Diggs on a first and ten on a comeback route. Josh faced a little pressure in his face because DeMarvin Leal, the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive tackle executed a good bull rush on O'Cyrus Torrence who got worked back into Allen and it affected him just a little bit but it was still a good throw and completion to Stefon Diggs. I would say the reason for the pressure was O'Cyrus Torrence. His hands were wide and late and so DeMarvin Leal was able to get into his chest and work him back and so the pressure on that play, the responsibility for that is O'Cyrus Torrence."

 

Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position.

 

His conclusion was there were 12 dropbacks, and he was pressured on six of them, including the sack. He blamed Allen's pocket management for three of them. "Two times, I "guess" it was Dion Dawkins but I thought that was more of a result of Josh Allen and his pocket management. So big asterisk, big air quotes around Dion Dawkins for two of them."

 

Blamed Brown for one, one on Torrence and one on Dalton Kincaid.

 

Marino also points out how outstanding the protection was for Barkley and Kyle Allen. Hmmm. 28 dropbacks, 4 pressures.

 

One thing that wasn't really addressed was the penalties, which does make things a little worse than Joe lays out

[GoBills808]

16 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

None sense… we just need 2020 Allen back

Oh right

that year we won the super bowl how could I forget😂😂

[jletha]

15 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

Doesn't look like Daboll will be available anytime soon

If were into 2020 Allen than we shouldnt be all that worried since he looked just as mediocre in a real game against those same Steelers in week 1. And than later against the Jags, and even worse against Indianapolis.

[Success]

That should be an easy thing for Allen to correct.  It's pretty clear on the tape on some of the plays.

 

He's adjusting to a new line, and a new style of play.  It needs more than a single preseason game to come together.

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Oh right

that year we won the super bowl how could I forget😂😂

good point.. playing worse than his best is the ticket to rings

 

brilliant stance 😂 😂 😂 

 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

15 minutes ago, jletha said:

If were into 2020 Allen than we shouldnt be all that worried since he looked just as mediocre in a real game against those same Steelers in week 1. And then later against the Jags, and even worse against Indianapolis.

2020 Josh played the Bills 2021 schedule? That’s pretty fancy

[MJS]

Good stuff from Marino. I seem to always see eye to eye with him. He has a good, nuanced approach to everything. He can be very critical when needed, but never loses sight of the bigger picture and the positive direction this franchise has been taking and will continue to take.

[LABILLBACKER]

In Josh's first 2 seasons he had to run because the OL & WR's were below average.  Those first 2 years developed Josh's athletic persona. Diggs, Gabe & Dawson came on board and we saw a slight decrease in running. Both designed and scrambles.  But unfortunately very little changed in protection in years 3,4 & 5.  We've had a 22-25th ranked OL his entire tenure.  You can't expect him to extinguish all his persona. So this season could very well be challenging for him as McB want him more "pocket oriented".  He's on the cover of Madden and getting all these commercials because he jumps over people like a YouTube video.  Father time will tell Josh to back off but these next 2-3 years is not that time.  If we lose a small amount of longevity so be it.  Let Josh be Josh and do better on the OL.

[NewEra]

26 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Oh right

that year we won the super bowl how could I forget😂😂

We had no pass rush

[jletha]

13 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

2020 Josh played the Bills 2021 schedule? That’s pretty fancy

Dammit lol. Well it was still Daboll.

[peterpan]

It started last season.  Josh was regressing to college Josh and not the Josh he was under Daboll.  This preseason game was awful

[GoBills808]

22 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

good point.. playing worse than his best is the ticket to rings

 

brilliant stance 😂 😂 😂 

 

 

It's how the Chiefs won the SB in 2018 during Mahomes best year and never again

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It's how the Chiefs won the SB in 2018 during Mahomes best year and never again

 

Sure - so hopefully Josh regresses enough to give them a shot at a Lombardi - good plan

[GoBills808]

14 minutes ago, NewEra said:

We had no pass rush

Yes that's largely my point

 

When you are getting consistently excellent play from QB you need to look at other areas of improvement 

[Airseven]

1 hour ago, Heitz said:

 

Yes and we were terrible last year, lucking into a 13 - 3 record...  

 

As you know, they won close/laborious games against bad teams in the second half and then got dominated by Cincy. Don’t have to apologize for the record of course. But the point here is to hopefully ascend.

[JMM]

I agree with him in general. Josh looked jittery back there, didn't step up, and left the pocket early several times. Hopefully it was the circumstances that others have mentioned and not a lack of confidence in his protection as a carryover from late last season

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, mbowman14 said:

The Oline (specifically the tackles) can't be absolved of all blame.  However, there are two issues with Josh:

1. Last season because of the porous play at Guard (Saffold especially), Josh couldn't step up in the pocket on a regular basis and his brain became trained to bail.  This is an issue for the tackles as they do need to drive the pass rush deep at times which is what Dawkins did on the first 3rd and 2 play and backing up took Josh into the rush.  I think this is the biggest reason why Torrence was drafted and McGovern was signed so that the middle of the pocket could be more solid and provide a place to step up into the throw.  Hopefully these two don't get beat immediately or knocked backwards off the LOS as was the case at Guard far too frequently in '22.  Josh will need to adjust to trusting the Guards and Morse to solidify the area directly in front of him to step up into the pocket and not bail.  

2. Josh at times needs to take the easy check-down throws and not rely on bailing the pocket (mostly to his preferred right side) for big plays.  This is easier said than done as big plays are his nature and you don't want to completely remove that threat.

Excellent post. Agree 100%

[78thealltimegreat]

4 hours ago, peterpan said:

It started last season.  Josh was regressing to college Josh and not the Josh he was under Daboll.  This preseason game was awful

He threw three incompletions and last year he had 42 total touchdowns what do want him to do go for 50?

[3rdand12]

8 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Yes. If Josh is the “ problem” in regular season losses, then it’s time to re-evaluate the Bills entire program and probably the McDermott regime as well. I don’t think we are there .. yet . The offensive line is a huge limiting factor in where this team’s  season is going to end up. If Allen is a limiting factor - again I believe he is a top 3 QB in the NFL- then what are we doing here ? This team has issues , but Josh Allen isn’t one of them. 

DORSEY !

[Goin Breakdown]

One does not blame Josh. 

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, 3rdand12 said:

DORSEY !

Dorsey has a lot to prove, no doubt. He tailed off after a fairly hot start to last season. I’m not going to try to draw too many conclusions from a preseason game , though. We’ll see if he’s up to the task. 

[Ralonzo]

11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position.

 

 

Agrees with what I saw.

  

On 8/20/2023 at 11:15 AM, Ralonzo said:

3rd & 7) It looks like Dawkins beat wide by Highsmith, but he might have been expecting a more effective chip from Kincaid. He didn't start the slide step until Kincaid had already not slowed down the edge an iota.

  

On 8/20/2023 at 11:15 AM, Ralonzo said:

2nd & 8) Complete Davis. Allen again bailing the pocket into trouble. although it looked like pressure Dawkins had locked on and the end would have been taken wide enough to just stand in there. But it's Josh so it's a 1st down.

 

 

  

10 hours ago, 947 said:

There was one play early (first drive, I think) where the pocket was clean & Allen could've stepped up if needed. But he bailed out to the right, directly into where TJ Watt was headed. Brown was doing a really good job with Watt on the play, and that fell apart when Allen rolled into the danger zone. It's that stuff that concerns me.

 

Yep, you caught that exactly right IMO.

  

On 8/20/2023 at 11:15 AM, Ralonzo said:

2nd & 2) Cook does a happy dance behind the LOS. Line was blocking down right, and he needed to follow them, they got good push. That's on the RB.
3rd & 2) Josh has a good pocket but bails RIGHT into Watt and dirts it. That series isn't on the line, 2 skill position fails on 2nd & 3rd.

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Ralonzo

[Billl]

9 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He's right

 

If what this team needs is for Allen to improve there is little hope of progressing 

I don’t think that’s true.  He’s a great player, but he’s still got a few holes in his swing.  If the right QB coach comes along and fixes them, he could actually be even better…like when Jordan figured out the fade-away was free money.

[Doc Brown]

10 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They had 10 players on the field on their very first play. There’s that.

And people say Dorsey isn't creative.

[PrimeTime101]

11 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

Well, If the problem is acutally Josh the only solution is to trade him because in year 6 he's not going to get any better.

typical homer reaction... The fact is JA can get better. his pocket presence is bad but i think that is do to being jumpy in past years. he needs to calm down. 

[Mango]

Josh is one of the best QB's in the league. His OL should be better. But sometimes he makes life difficult by holding the ball a little too long. 

 

All of these things can be true at the same time. 

[Shemp]

Blocking and tackling are the basic building blocks of the NFL. The Bills have plenty of great guys who can pass, catch and run but blocking on the OL looks very thin and shaky. Doyle is out for the year. Morse and Dawkins have chronic injury problems and can easily become long-term injured. Spencer Brown looks like a bust and is also injury prone. Quessenbury should have been cut awhile back. This leaves who?  Looks to me like Beane put the cart before the horse with the OL. IMO addressing the OL should have been on the top shelf but Beane seems more enamored with the shiny toys. The Bills need more hogs!

Edited August 23, 2023 by Shemp

[BarleyNY]

21 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Joe Marino did a play-by-play breakdown of the pressure on Josh and found that a lot of it was on Josh himself. Backing up into rushers who had been directed too deep around him without any pressure forcing that backup. Leaving clean pockets. And so on.

 

 

It's in the first ten minutes.

 

Here's an example of one play that was not Allen's fault according to Joe:  "#4 you had a completion to Stefon Diggs on a first and ten on a comeback route. Josh faced a little pressure in his face because DeMarvin Leal, the Pittsburgh Steelers defensive tackle executed a good bull rush on O'Cyrus Torrence who got worked back into Allen and it affected him just a little bit but it was still a good throw and completion to Stefon Diggs. I would say the reason for the pressure was O'Cyrus Torrence. His hands were wide and late and so DeMarvin Leal was able to get into his chest and work him back and so the pressure on that play, the responsibility for that is O'Cyrus Torrence."

 

Interestingly, he blamed one play on Kincaid, saying he completely missed a chip he was supposed to make, which left Dawkins in an impossible position.

 

His conclusion was there were 12 dropbacks, and he was pressured on six of them, including the sack. He blamed Allen's pocket management for three of them. "Two times, I "guess" it was Dion Dawkins but I thought that was more of a result of Josh Allen and his pocket management. So big asterisk, big air quotes around Dion Dawkins for two of them."

 

Blamed Brown for one, one on Torrence and one on Dalton Kincaid.

 

Marino also points out how outstanding the protection was for Barkley and Kyle Allen. Hmmm. 28 dropbacks, 4 pressures.

 

 

Thanks for starting this topic and taking most of the heat. I listened to Mariano’s podcast yesterday. I also listened to PFF’s brief review of the game and Sam Monson had a similar take on Allen. He said that it looked like he “was seeing ghosts” and bailing on the pocket even when there was no pressure. Both opinions support what I saw in that game and last season. 

 

I think this issue has more than one cause. The first is protection problems. The problems at tackle are the most prominent, but there have been issues inside too. The second is looking for the home run ball too often. That’s on multiple people. There are plays where Allen has held the ball - and often scrambled - while looking for a big play and ignoring receivers open short. But there have been plays where there are no short options - either because receivers didn’t adjust their routes or because Dorsey’s play didn’t include that option.

 

What I’m seeing with Allen in the pocket now is him bailing early - often into pressure - even when there is a good pocket. When he doesn’t bail to the side I’m also seeing him drop back further rather than step up into the pocket. That creates issues with the OTs who will sometimes carry a rusher going outside deep. That works if the QB is supposed to be at 7 yards and they carry him 10, but not if the QB has slid back to 10. 

 

To Allen’s credit, he’s athletic and skilled enough to still make positive plays when some of that happens. But he needs to make life easier on himself and his body. That’s not all on him. Dorsey, Beane and the OL have to give him confidence that they’ll protect him. That includes OL performance, play design and execution by the other 10 players on the field. It might seem like I focused on Allen as the issue here because that’s where most of the problems manifest, but I don’t think that is the case. This is something that a lot of people need to fix. 

[That's No Moon]

21 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

I think that its because they told him that he couldn't run in a PS game and you can't take running out of JA's game. It just throws the whole thing off. I think that just knowing that he has the option to take off helps him stay in there and complete plays.

If he can't learn to play without running his shelf life as a top notch QB is significantly shorter and is rapidly coming to an end.

[Gregg]

 

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

 

"They lose one of their best offensive lineman Rodger Saffold....."

[billybob71]

a breakdown on a preseason game with zero offensive game planning,  where they clearly told Allen to play it safe and not take any risks. not interested.. its irrelevant

[In Summary]

Probably just habit from not having an IOL he could trust.

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, billybob71 said:

a breakdown on a preseason game with zero offensive game planning,  where they clearly told Allen to play it safe and not take any risks. not interested.. its irrelevant

 

You can take meaningful things away from preseason reps. I don't think Joe Marino was trying to say that Josh is a problem, he was just saying some of the criticism of the OTs was overblown. Later in the podcast he said that he still felt Spencer Brown looked "vulnerable" out there. The coaching staff kept Dawkins and Brown out there after the other starters were pulled so that tells you what they thought.

[brianthomas]

appreciate you posting this video but i dislike videos like this. Joe Marino went over all the video, well how about show it? Picture says a thousand words, video says even more. Couldnt he show the plays he's talking about? Wouldn't that have been a better video? Thanks Joe Marino for showing us what you think the issues are, oh wait you didnt lol. If im off-based i apologize in advance. GO BILLS!