Hughes (non-) roughing penalty

[Merle]

Forgive me if I missed it, but I couldn't find any discussion of this play.   I simply could not believe that they picked up that flag when Hughes put his hands on Mac out of bounds.   He clearly wasn't trying to hit him (looked like he was actually trying to hold him up), but the fact that the refs picked up that flag, especially since it was against Hughes who many think is on some sort of NFL "blacklist", was amazing to me ... and in Gillette Stadium no less!   When asked after the game if the refs gave him an explanation for that, Belicheat just referred them to the officials.   Curious if anyone heard the explanation?

[Doc Brown]

Could be a case of the official upstairs seeing the replay where Hughes actually tried to prevent him from falling over and relaying it down to the refs on the field.  Pry trying to make up for the "just give it to them" bs call there in '98.

[Punching Bag]

He clearly was trying to hold him up and that is hilarious.  It is like he felt sorry for him.

 

 

[MJS]

So, I think two things played into it. First, almost all of the contact from Hughes was him attempting to hold Jones up. Second, to me it was kind of obvious that Mac Jones flopped when he felt Hughes touch him, and with refs close by watching the same thing, they could have easily come to the same conclusion, that he flopped to try and get a penalty.

 

I was pretty shocked they picked it up too. I think doing so was good for the game. Hughes was dumb to touch him, but I think we need to get away from penalties for simply touching the QB and drawing a flop. QB's get enough help.

 

And, BTW, I would expect Josh to do the same thing. It's smart and in this case it almost worked. Josh has flopped and gotten calls in his favor in the past.

[Motorin']

5 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Could be a case of the official upstairs seeing the replay where Hughes actually tried to prevent him from falling over and relaying it down to the refs on the field.  Pry trying to make up for the "just give it to them" bs call there in '98.

 

I swear, I couldn't help but think of that call right then too. 

 

The "just give it to them" game seemed to mark the a major shift in the balance of power in the AFC East, from the Bills to the Pats. And that call felt like the balance had swung back to the Bills. 

[stevewin]

3 minutes ago, MJS said:

So, I think two things played into it. First, almost all of the contact from Hughes was him attempting to hold Jones up. Second, to me it was kind of obvious that Mac Jones flopped when he felt Hughes touch him, and with refs close by watching the same thing, they could have easily come to the same conclusion, that he flopped to try and get a penalty.

Yep - was waiting for the call 2 mins for embellishment

[Warcodered]

Could of seen it go either way not really a big deal, the penalty the Pats got themselves when it got picked up just made it seem worse to them.

[Dan Darragh]

It's proof positive that the Brady era is over in New England.

[Brand J]

It was dumb for Hughes to touch him given the way the game is called nowadays, but I had no issue with them picking up the flag - and still wouldn’t if it was Josh Allen on the other end.
I think initially Hughes was going to push Mac, but realized where he was on the field and tried to hold him up. He didn’t drag him down or throw him into the bench, so simply grabbing a QB who’s a step out of bounds shouldn’t constitute a roughing the passer penalty. On a related note, roughing the passer really needs to get back to “roughing the passer.” I’ve seen too many calls where the flag is thrown just for literally touching a QB. It’s insane.

[LeGOATski]

I was surprised as hell. He pushed a QB going out of bounds. I thought it was a total gift from the refs and was very thankful.

[Punching Bag]

13 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

It was dumb for Hughes to touch him given the way the game is called nowadays, but I had no issue with them picking up the flag - and still wouldn’t if it was Josh Allen on the other end.
I think initially Hughes was going to push Mac, but realized where he was on the field and tried to hold him up. He didn’t drag him down or throw him into the bench, so simply grabbing a QB who’s a step out of bounds shouldn’t constitute a roughing the passer penalty. On a related note, roughing the passer really needs to get back to “roughing the passer.” I’ve seen too many calls where the flag is thrown just for literally touching a QB. It’s insane.

 

And the standard needs to be same for all QBs whether they are small built or large and pocket passer or scrambler.

[CA OC Bills Fan]

See explanation in link:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/referee-explains-why-flag-was-picked-up-on-late-hit-to-mac-jones-in-patriots-loss-to-bills/

 

[MJS]

46 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Could of seen it go either way not really a big deal, the penalty the Pats got themselves when it got picked up just made it seem worse to them.

That was on the Milano penalty. They were offsetting penalties.

 

I bet Pats fans were really mad about that one especially since Davis went on to say it shouldn't have been called. But he's an idiot. The Pats player was aggressively pushing Milano back while walking into him and shoving his facemask into Milano's. I don't know if taunting is what I would have called it, but it was certainly unsportsmanlike conduct or something similar.

 

The Milano penalty was valid, but it's not like he hit him hard. Just slid over the top of him. There's no need to "protect your QB" in that situation.

 

We also can't hear what these players are saying in these situations. What they say to one another goes into it as well.

Edited December 27, 2021 by MJS

[Matt_In_NH]

I was shocked because it looked like a clear penalty based on the rule and the way we have seen it called before.  I think the fact he then grabbed the jersey to hold him up is what caused them to pick it up.  

[JimKelly12]

It was funny, the refs made the right call but the announcer (Ian Eagle?) didn't get the memo and was all in for trying to kill the Bills momentum.

[Wayne Cubed]

Jerry also actually got a holding call go for him. Unbelievable.

[entropyrules]

I thought it possibly was a make-up call for the somewhat ticky-tack call on a previous roughing the passer penalty (Obada?). Hughes deserved to be flagged but after the 3E+12 undeserved penalties called on the Bills during previous  games against the Pats getting one our way  just seems Meh!

[DCOrange]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

That was on the Milano penalty. They were offsetting penalties.

 

I bet Pats fans were really mad about that one especially since Davis went on to say it shouldn't have been called. But he's an idiot. The Pats player was aggressively pushing Milano back while walking into him and shoving his facemask into Milano's. I don't know if taunting is what I would have called it, but it was certainly unsportsmanlike conduct or something similar.

 

The Milano penalty was valid, but it's not like he hit him hard. Just slid over the top of him. There's no need to "protect your QB" in that situation.

 

We also can't hear what these players are saying in these situations. What they say to one another goes into it as well.

It was both. New England got penalized on the Mac play too for taunting; Trent Brown. I really couldn’t believe that all went our way. After seeing so many penalties called where the QB isn’t even out of bounds yet, to push Mac after he was already out of bounds and have it be a penalty on New England was unbelievable. 

[JoshAllin]

Heads up play from Hughes after a major screwup in touching him in the first place, I mean why not make it look completely harmless so there's a possibility of a no call

[Not at the table Karlos]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

That was on the Milano penalty. They were offsetting penalties.

 

I bet Pats fans were really mad about that one especially since Davis went on to say it shouldn't have been called. But he's an idiot. The Pats player was aggressively pushing Milano back while walking into him and shoving his facemask into Milano's. I don't know if taunting is what I would have called it, but it was certainly unsportsmanlike conduct or something similar.

 

The Milano penalty was valid, but it's not like he hit him hard. Just slid over the top of him. There's no need to "protect your QB" in that situation.

 

We also can't hear what these players are saying in these situations. What they say to one another goes into it as well.

The * got a 15 yard penalty immediately after the Hughes flag was picked up. The fans were going crazy for a while.  Milanos play was much later in the game. 

[RobbRiddick]

Yeah, I said in the game thread I couldn't believe they threw the flag because he was trying to stop him falling into the bench. 

 

I think part of the reason they threw the flag was the crowd's reaction, as they booed loudly the second Hughes touched him. Then several NE players came over to defend The Greatest Rookie QB In The History Of The NFL. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

Well, the way the play looked in real speed and from the angle the refs see it AND it being a QB that was one the receiving end...I can completely understand why the flag was thrown. 

 

Yes when you slow it down and look at the TV angle you can see the intent and what happened better. Refs of the field don't get that luxury so can't blame them for that.

 

But great to see them get together, likely with some help from the booth and make the right call.

[NewEra]

I couldn’t believe they picked it up.  Shocked to say the least.  Jerry gets the shaft 99% of the time.  I figured it was coming for him again.  Good No call by the refs.  It was obvious he was trying to hold him up.  
 

There were some questionable calls on both sides yesterday but i thought the refs did an overall solid job.  

[billsbackto81]

6 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

It was dumb for Hughes to touch him given the way the game is called nowadays, but I had no issue with them picking up the flag - and still wouldn’t if it was Josh Allen on the other end.
I think initially Hughes was going to push Mac, but realized where he was on the field and tried to hold him up. He didn’t drag him down or throw him into the bench, so simply grabbing a QB who’s a step out of bounds shouldn’t constitute a roughing the passer penalty. On a related note, roughing the passer really needs to get back to “roughing the passer.” I’ve seen too many calls where the flag is thrown just for literally touching a QB. It’s insane.

This^^^^ Tells it all...

[streetkings01]

Let Pats fans tell you they got robbed on that non call. Lol

 

It was the right call period……nothing about it was unnecessary roughness.

[Steptide]

The Patriots were re payed by the refs for the terrible holding call on Dane Jackson. 

[RiotAct]

6 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

I was surprised as hell. He pushed a QB going out of bounds. I thought it was a total gift from the refs and was very thankful.

that’s what I thought too at first, but had my doubts when watching the slo-mo replay.  Still, I figured  there was 0% chance they picked up the flag

[WhoTom]

2 hours ago, Wayne Cubed said:

Jerry also actually got a holding call go for him. Unbelievable.

 

Yeah, I was shocked at that one too.

 

[bmur66]

They heard me say, “if they don’t pick up that flag I’m not watching any more of this game”. And I meant it.

[Jerome007]

To me it was Christmas miracle. A play or two before, Hughes had gotten the opposing lineman a HOLDING penalty against him! And then this. Wow.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

It's almost as if all the stuff about the refs rigging games is made up and a product of selection bias.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Steptide said:

The Patriots were re payed by the refs for the terrible holding call on Dane Jackson. 

 

That was an awful call.  I couldn't believe the announcers were actually trying to defend it.

[nkreed]

1 hour ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Well, the way the play looked in real speed and from the angle the refs see it AND it being a QB that was one the receiving end...I can completely understand why the flag was thrown. 

 

Yes when you slow it down and look at the TV angle you can see the intent and what happened better. Refs of the field don't get that luxury so can't blame them for that.

 

But great to see them get together, likely with some help from the booth and make the right call.

I know that you are mostly referencing the after the initial contact.... however in real time how late was Hughes on pushing Jones out? A millisecond? He was running for a first down and Hughes was committed. The push was all a nothing-burger and was a "bang bang" play. To hear Charles Davis say he was clearly soooooo late was infuriating watching it at 1/10th the speed of real life. Has Davis been out of the NFL for so long he can't remember how things go? Yeesh.

 

Anyway they made the correct.call, even if that was Josh Allen getting contacted.

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by nkreed
Confusing original writing

[T master]

Being a veteran with the amount of games he has played he should have known better that could have been a huge penalty and one that may have shifted momentum the other way he should have just let him go out and no touched him .

 

The Bills got away with one there usually that would have been a given maybe after the last game the refs got a ass chewing because of the terrible calls they made against the Bills . But that did help to even the score a bit one bad call for us this time .

[skibum]

It was fun watching Belichick's reaction to that play. It's like he had no idea such a thing was even possible within our physical universe. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I can understand if they had called it a foul. But I am not sure how the pats could be so outraged by the non-call. Everyone saw that Hughes was trying to stop Mac from falling, and Mac tried to dive.  Not getting a ticky tack freebie flag there isn’t cause for outrage. 

[StHustle]

I felt they rewarded Hughes for not arguing their call whatsoever despite him knowing he just tried to help Jones.

[BuffaloBillyG]

11 minutes ago, nkreed said:

I know that you are mostly referencing the after the initial contact.... however in real time how late was Hughes on pushing Jones out? A millisecond? He was running for a first down and Hughes was committed. The push was all a nothing-burger and was a "bang bang" play. To hear Charles Davis say he was clearly soooooo late was infuriating watching it at 1/10th the speed of real life. Has Davis been out of the NFL for so long he can't remember how things go? Yeesh.

 

Anyway they made the correct.call, even if that was Josh Allen getting contacted.

 

The flag had nothing to do with the Initial Contact. It was 100% what had appeared to be a pull down 4-5 yards out of bounds. Which most times will result in a flag.

 

I also heard Davis acknowledge that he looked to be trying to help Jones up and that his only questions past that was "Why take the chance and put your hands on him out of bounds like that?". However, in a bang-bang play humans are more imclu ed to try and help people not get hurt...which is what Hughes reacted to. 

 

It's one of those plays where, yup his intent was good and shouldn't have been flagged....however it would have been understandable had the call went against us.

[Punching Bag]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That was an awful call.  I couldn't believe the announcers were actually trying to defend it.

 

I can the way they were talking during game.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

17 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I can understand if they had called it a foul. But I am not sure how the pats could be so outraged by the non-call. Everyone saw that Hughes was trying to stop Mac from falling, and Mac tried to dive.  Not getting a ticky tack freebie flag there isn’t cause for outrage. 

Agree they did a good job of picking up the flag.

I honestly can not ever remember a personal foul flag being picked up and the refs changing their minds. Anyine else remember another time that occurred?