Allen's Last Pass (12/2): Bad Pass or Drop?

[Kelly the Dog]

6 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

I’ll note that the EZ perfect view of the ball losing its spiral and starting to wobble seems somewhat rate. Not sure if this is because of new tech, or the position of the camera, or rarity of seeing a pass like this thrown.

 

 

 You don’t see the flight of a punt shown like that pass

1) Josh said after the game that he didn't like how the ball left his hand, which was obviously referring to the wobble versus a better spiral. Which makes the length of the pass even more remarkable.

2) I think that fans don't realize how many completed passes are not good spirals, when they appear to be great passes shown live. 

[row_33]

5 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

1) Josh said after the game that he didn't like how the ball left his hand, which was obviously referring to the wobble versus a better spiral. Which makes the length of the pass even more remarkable.

2) I think that fans don't realize how many completed passes are not good spirals, when they appear to be great passes shown live. 

 

Good points

 

the pass wobbled the last ten yards, it was a great feat to get it that far under pressure, next time....

 

some greats often “lobbed” it perfectly into a region that ensured their talented WRs would catch it with minimal risk of INT

 

i have a few HoF SB winners in mind.... one grabbed 4 of them....

 

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by row_33

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Shades of Kelly to Ronnie Harmon 1989, the pass doinked right off his forearm in the end zone, playoffs against the Browns/Bernie Kosar (yes, Cleveland used to be good too). Catch it, Bills win, he didn’t, so long trek back home with what could’ve/should’ve been. However, after that year, the SB run started and Kelly became Kelly—while I know this is not the same setting in terms of playoffs, I have confidence Allen will build off of this and become a better QB over time this year and beyond.  

[Shortchaz]

2 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

1) Josh said after the game that he didn't like how the ball left his hand, which was obviously referring to the wobble versus a better spiral. Which makes the length of the pass even more remarkable.

2) I think that fans don't realize how many completed passes are not good spirals, when they appear to be great passes shown live. 

I think the ball was affected by the force of him moving left before he stopped and threw right, but I don’t know for sure. 

 

I will say after watching it a few times from a few angles that it was a SLIGHTLY harder catch than I originally thought, but still should’ve been caught. 

[row_33]

Just now, Shortchaz said:

I think the ball was affected by the force of him moving left before he stopped and threw right, but I don’t know for sure. 

 

I will say after watching it a few times from a few angles that it was a SLIGHTLY harder catch than I originally thought, but still should’ve been caught. 

 

Clay flubbed something a little more difficult than a can of corn

 

 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

The pass was wobly however it was on target and hit Clay in the hands ,he should have caught it. Also why is he diving for the ball?? Just keep running and make it easier on yourself.

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

The pass was wobly however it was on target and hit Clay in the hands ,he should have caught it. Also why is he diving for the ball?? Just keep running and make it easier on yourself.

 

 

He tackled himself. 

[Shortchaz]

4 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

Clay flubbed something a little more difficult than a can of corn

 

 

Yeah, that playing-center-field type play can be tricky because you rarely  practice it. Hard to get a good read on the ball, and if it’s wonky like that...I think he was concerned it was going to go over his head which made him hesitate, then panic when adjusting.

 

still should’ve caught it.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

He tackled himself. 

 

basically, i haven't been that mad at a player in a long time, which means we finally have  a future again.

 

i believe in this coach ,GM and QB and cant wait to be the best again ( this time we are winning 4 in a row)

[Nextmanup]

6 hours ago, row_33 said:

That’s on Clay

 

as it was on Ronnie Harmon

 

live a little 

love a little

learn a little

 

 

Just watched that throw again about 10 times.

 

I estimate the ball was under thrown by something on the order of 13 yards.

 

When the ball leaves Allen's hand, Clay is near the end line, in the back of the end zone.  He ends up having to get his hands to ground level on the goal line to get to the ball.  I.E., the ball would have hit a receiver "in the numbers" probably around the 3 yard line or maybe even further out.

 

The ball was horribly thrown with a wobble that suggested it was tipped; it was not tipped. 

 

The whole thing seems more spectacular than it was b/c the game was on the line and Allen had to run around in circles avoiding a sack before the throw.

 

In the end, it was a horribly thrown ball and Clay failed to make a really nice catch to bring it in, which perhaps he should have, but he did not.

 

The Ronnie Harmon incident in Cleveland is not comparable IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

18 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Just watched that throw again about 10 times.

 

I estimate the ball was under thrown by something on the order of 13 yards.

 

When the ball leaves Allen's hand, Clay is near the end line, in the back of the end zone.  He ends up having to get his hands to ground level on the goal line to get to the ball.  I.E., the ball would have hit a receiver "in the numbers" probably around the 3 yard line or maybe even further out.

 

The ball was horribly thrown with a wobble that suggested it was tipped; it was not tipped. 

 

The whole thing seems more spectacular than it was b/c the game was on the line and Allen had to run around in circles avoiding a sack before the throw.

 

In the end, it was a horribly thrown ball and Clay failed to make a really nice catch to bring it in, which perhaps he should have, but he did not.

 

The Ronnie Harmon incident in Cleveland is not comparable IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

13 yards farther would have been out of the endzone. Go back under a rock. 

[transplantbillsfan]

 

[Perry Turtle]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Ya know another poster just pointed this out and I think it's a fantastic point:

 

Allen threw that football 70 yardsin the air, and he did that AFTER running all over the field to find a throw.

 

And yeah, it was about 70 yards... maybe 66 to be exact.

 

Ball released on the 40 yard line reaches the end zone but he's throwing across the field.

 

Look up the dimensions of a football field for yourself and you'll discover the distance horizontally from where Allen threw it to where Clay couldn't catch it was somewhere around 23-26 yards I'd say.

 

40+23/26= 63/66 yards.

 

Clay should have come back to the ball a bit.

Between the scramble and pass, Allen covered around 100 yards of field on that play.

 

And they were all necessary as the receivers all seemed to be running hail-Mary routes to the right side of the end zone.

 

It's difficult to call this a horrible pass, and Allen did throw some horrible passes in this game, when 95% of QBs are not able to make that play.

  

[MJS]

How can anyone blame Allen? He was throwing on the run, accross his body, to the far side of the field.

 

Tough catch for Clay, but since he sucks all the time anyway he deserves the blame. If it hits you in the hands, catch it.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Not sure what happened in spots today with Allen’s arm. He threw a duck on that final throw to Clay, and at the end of the first half. 

 

The ball was wobbling and died at the goal line. 

 

Great escape, nice down field read, but bad pass.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Straight Hucklebuck

[ALF]

If Allen had better pass protection , Clay was wide open. Good call by Daboll , and it knocked him down , he really cares.

 

Fixing a OL is about as hard as finding a good QB. Having the right OL coach would also help.

[billsintaiwan]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Not sure what happened in spots today with Allen’s arm. He threw a duck on that final throw to Clay, and at the end of the first half. 

 

The ball was wobbling and died at the goal line. 

 

Great escape, nice down field read, but bad pass.

About sixty yards cross in the air. Maybe he had time to set his feet and maybe someone sees Clay if he takes that time. It was a tremendous play and it needed Clay to make a good, not great, catch.

[Gugny]

Does anyone know if McDermott said that this was a pass that Josh would like to have back?

[Big Gun]

Only Bills fans can somehow blame the QB for a throw that travels 45+ yards to the goal line in the air back diagonally across the field after scrambling around avoiding guys trying to kill him for what seemed like 10 seconds where the TE drops the damn ball after it hits him in the hands. 

 

Only Bills fans, only Bills fans geeze!

 

edit: after rewatching that play why was Clay originally at the back of the endzone about a yard away out of bounds? Why was Clay not near the goal line? 

 

Clay wasn't very good on that play then he dropped it, bad all around play by him.

Edited December 3, 2018 by pop gun

[CaptnCoke11]

Tough throw to make first off.. It was a duck that was under thrown but could of been caught.  Would of been a tough catch but it was still catchable.  It was Clay so I’m not surprised.  

Edited December 3, 2018 by CaptnCoke11

[CountDorkula]

Both.

 

Could it have been a better throw by Allen, absolutely.

Should it have been caught by Clay, absolutely.

 

80/20 Clay/Allen blame.

 

 

Have to be encouraged with Allen though.

Edited December 3, 2018 by CountDorkula

[Romie]

6 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

I estimate the ball was under thrown by something on the order of 13 yards

I don't think your qualified to give estimates

Edited December 3, 2018 by Romie

[CNYfan]

CBS Sports blamed Allen.  Claims he "missed" a wide open Charles Clay in the end zone.  

 

There was comparative fault on this play (OL anyone) but it tips toward Clay for me, choking in the big moment.

[Big Gun]

Simon and White are trying too hard to blame Allen for a bad throw when Clay dropped it. These guys are pathetic.

[teef]

i'm of the both category.   either way, i walked away from that game feeling more positive about allen than when it began.   there was a lot of good there to build on.  

[billsfan1959]

7 minutes ago, teef said:

i'm of the both category.   either way, i walked away from that game feeling more positive about allen than when it began.   there was a lot of good there to build on.  

Agree. How can any reasonable, objective fan of this team not feel positive about Allen after the last two games?

[buffaloboyinATL]

I voted drop. It would be a “bad pass” if it was a normal play with time in the pocket, but for everything he had to do leading up to the throw, it was beautiful. That is the kind of throw that QB’s like Aaron Rodgers make, that make them so dangerous and win games they probably shouldn’t.

 

a better receiver makes that catch.

[Doc]

Clay would have dropped a "perfect" pass as well.  It's all on him.

[The Poojer]

Could Allen have run for the first down?

Clay should NOT have been that deep in the endzone that far into the play, he should have been running closer to Allen to help him out.

Pass was a bit of a duck, but should have been caught.....

 

.....UGH!!!!!!

[4BillsintheBurgh]

As others have said, Clay misjudged the ball coming in, leading to the oh sh** dive and subsequent slip. With Allen's normal bullets you have to assume those guys first reaction is that it's not going to be short. Once the scramble started maybe he thought Allen was done for and didn't move back toward him because Allen did some amazing things to keep it alive. Clay should have been working back as soon as Allen broke outside the pocket and he should have realized that the cross field throw would not have a lot of mustard on it. If Clay was a rook, I could forgive all that, as a vet he needs to make the play. It's on him.

[DC Tom]

9 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I think it's time to ring the @DC Tom bat phone.

 

The math is right.  Everything else is wrong.  The poster's an idiot.

[teef]

32 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Agree. How can any reasonable, objective fan of this team not feel positive about Allen after the last two games?

it wasn't perfect, or even pretty, but allen did what he could to put this team on his back and score points.  if/once the game slows down for him, allen could be a tremendous qb.

[Royale with Cheese]

The biggest mistake I believe with Clay was game situation.  He didn't need to catch the ball in the endzone which I think he was trying to do.  Step up and catch the ball even if you go out of the endzone. and you're at the 1.  You didn't have anyone within 7 yards of you, you can still turn and get in.  Or even lets say you do get tackled at the 1.  We still had time on the clock to spike it and probably run 2 more plays from the 1.

[Royale with Cheese]

8 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Just watched that throw again about 10 times.

 

I estimate the ball was under thrown by something on the order of 13 yards.

 

When the ball leaves Allen's hand, Clay is near the end line, in the back of the end zone.  He ends up having to get his hands to ground level on the goal line to get to the ball.  I.E., the ball would have hit a receiver "in the numbers" probably around the 3 yard line or maybe even further out.

 

The ball was horribly thrown with a wobble that suggested it was tipped; it was not tipped. 

 

The whole thing seems more spectacular than it was b/c the game was on the line and Allen had to run around in circles avoiding a sack before the throw.

 

In the end, it was a horribly thrown ball and Clay failed to make a really nice catch to bring it in, which perhaps he should have, but he did not.

 

The Ronnie Harmon incident in Cleveland is not comparable IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

13 yards????  The ball hit Charles Clay's hands....how long do you think his arms are?

[4BillsintheBurgh]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

13 yards????  The ball hit Charles Clay's hands....how long do you think his arms are?

All he's saying is that if Clay didn't move after the throw, the ball would have been in his chest if it was 13 yards deeper. I agree with him. Unfortunately for the OP that doesn't make it a bad throw. 

[jrober38]

Drop.

 

Clay should have run back to the football and let him hit him in his chest. 

 

It shouldn't have been close. He just completely misread the flight of the ball. 

[MPT]

1 hour ago, pop gun said:

Simon and White are trying too hard to blame Allen for a bad throw when Clay dropped it. These guys are pathetic.

 

No they're not. They're saying what every reasonable person is saying. It should have been caught, but it could have also been a better pass.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

All he's saying is that if Clay didn't move after the throw, the ball would have been in his chest if it was 13 yards deeper. I agree with him. Unfortunately for the OP that doesn't make it a bad throw. 

 

My argument would be that when you're throwing across the field on the last play of the game and Clay that wide open....you throw to a general area where he can make a play.

The throw wasn't good, but not horrible either.  It was catchable but a tough catch.

 

I think Clay's problem is he tried to catch it in the endzone when he had time and room to go up further and get it.

 

I'd say it was 65% on Clay, 35% on Allen.

[Fan in Chicago]

42 minutes ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

As others have said, Clay misjudged the ball coming in, leading to the oh sh** dive and subsequent slip. With Allen's normal bullets you have to assume those guys first reaction is that it's not going to be short. Once the scramble started maybe he thought Allen was done for and didn't move back toward him because Allen did some amazing things to keep it alive. Clay should have been working back as soon as Allen broke outside the pocket and he should have realized that the cross field throw would not have a lot of mustard on it. If Clay was a rook, I could forgive all that, as a vet he needs to make the play. It's on him.

This is exactly why I pin this drop entirely on Clay. The QB was scrambling, Clay was wide open, Allen somehow gets it close to the EZ. The ball was traveling for a while with no pressure on Clay. He had adequate time to judge the ball and where he needed to be - inside the 5 yard line. Clay has no excuses. And esp in Miami where he could have caught it and proverbially thumbed his nose at the Dolphins and yet he came up real small. 

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

My argument would be that when you're throwing across the field on the last play of the game and Clay that wide open....you throw to a general area where he can make a play.

The throw wasn't good, but not horrible either.  It was catchable but a tough catch.

 

I think Clay's problem is he tried to catch it in the endzone when he had time and room to go up further and get it.

 

I'd say it was 65% on Clay, 35% on Allen.

Not so much on Allen as he wasnt sitting comfortably in the pocket waiting for someone to get open. It was a desperation throw, under pressure, in a non-ideal throwing position.

[HappyDays]

13 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

13 yards????  The ball hit Charles Clay's hands....how long do you think his arms are?

 

He joined the board 24 hours ago and his posts are 100% negative. I'm gonna go ahead and say that's not a coincidence.