Rebel101 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 21 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: Ok so a Specific Offense tailored for Allen? Dont you think then kind of vital having the 1s learn that specific offense. They HAD to know Allen was going to start sooner than later with Peterman. If not that is a problem. Just like it would be a problem installing two specific offenses I agree but I really think they thought the way peterman looked in preseason and it being his 2nd year that he was gonna give them a good season...why else get ready rid of McCarron. Who I believe would have preformed better then both our current QBs while also giving Allen a little of a Vet presence to learn from. Getting rid of McCarron was a huge mistake but it goes back to this coaching staff conceding the fact of winning games this year they knew the roster they were taking into the season there is no way they expected to be competitive so I think they are just trying to teach this year and see if there are any young players worth keeping. Because honestly some of the moves this FO has made have been mind boggling. I understand they were told to fix the cap and all that but some things they’ve done to do that are ridiculous because there were pieces they should have kept if they wanted to win they clearly don’t care about winning this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 50 minutes ago, Hebert19 said: Both. We won ugly and he learned he doesn't need to look downfield every play. One doesn't mean the other isnt happening. Exactly. these are not mutually exclusive outcomes. In fact, probably complementary. Every rep I think has the potential for him to learn from, regardless of the game plan going in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMF2006 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 I think they should throw it 48 times a game and get Cornfed killed Then they can draft another 1st rnd QB next year and do it again You can win ugly and have your QB throw 19-25 times and still teach him. Winning builds confidence for the whole team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 I guess the OP is asking what the priority would be. I still say both. I read somewhere that Allen is out before every practice working on his mechanics even as he prepares for the next game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChronicAndKnuckles Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 WINNING gives Allen confidence and that's what a young QB needs. He needs to believe in himself so he can take that next step not to mention everything is not about Allen, we have 52 other players on this team. People may not realize it, but we are slowly building an elite defense. The Titans were no pushover at 3-1. I'm not talking playoffs just yet, but if this running game holds up and the defense keeps playing at the level they are generating turnovers (which was no fluke last year) then maybe it's a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennyDavisEyes Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 50 minutes ago, Hebert19 said: Both. We won ugly and he learned he doesn't need to look downfield every play. One doesn't mean the other isnt happening. Great post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 best way to develop is to win.....then you know it's working Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Kevi Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 58 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said: this is why I said yesterdays game was unsatisfying and got crushed for it #1 priority to me for this year is developing Allen Not going to happen if they try and hide him with this type of game plan week in week out. I wouln't say it was "unsatisfying", but I agree with the spirit of your post. I didn't expect to win this year, and I really wamt them to let Josh play. Let him take lumps and INTs. I hate it when I can tell they have the reigns on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 47 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said: If you have a good defense and good ground game you have at least a solid chance of winning the game. 1990 called and agreed. The Bills are not going to win games scoring 13 points. Losing scores yesterday 24 12 - Tennessee 31 17 9 - Baltimore 23 14 16 17 10 - Oakland 21 18 31 16 You need to score minimum 21 a game to at least have a fighting chance. This is not sustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boco357 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Say what you want about last drive, but it's a 4th quarter game winning drive. Only his fourth start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, DuckyBoys said: this is why I said yesterdays game was unsatisfying and got crushed for it #1 priority to me for this year is developing Allen Not going to happen if they try and hide him with this type of game plan week in week out. The ‘04 Steelers limited Roethlisberger to around 20 attempts per game, coupled with a persistent ground game and solid defense. That Pittsburgh squad was far more talented than the current Bills, and no one is predicting that the Bills will finish anywhere near the AFC title game. The concept can work and even make sense. Allen can be developed without throwing 35 passes a contest. It will take creative and judicious play calling from Daboll, and the Titans gameplan can / should be expanded on. Edited October 8, 2018 by Boatdrinks 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 I'm starting to think that fans don't understand the term "develop." Josh Allen doesn't need to be throwing 30 times a game in order to learn. I definitely agree that Allen's development should be our #1 priority. But I have no problem with us executing run-heavy game plans, limiting how much pressure we put him under or doing what is necessary to win games. We can accomplish both at the same time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsGospel Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Berky1010 said: There has been a lot of debate about whether we should try and win 8 games this year or prioritize the development of Josh Allen. Both are great but there are a number of people who are mad at yesterday's win given the poor showing at QB. So I would ask you - would you rather 1) See good progress from Allen but win 3-4 games? Or 2) Win 8 games ugly and enter next season without a confident grasp of who will be our long term QB? There is no debate, this is all about Allen's progress going forward, Allen just got his 1st comeback win down in the 4th qtr with not much to work with on offense , zipped an awesome pass to McCoy and helped set up the fg to win against a tough 3-1 Tennessee Titans team who wins by smash mouth defense. Would you rather have Aaron Rodgers numbers but lose the game? Winning games does nothing but good for Allen imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Berky1010 said: There has been a lot of debate about whether we should try and win 8 games this year or prioritize the development of Josh Allen. Both are great but there are a number of people who are mad at yesterday's win given the poor showing at QB. So I would ask you - would you rather 1) See good progress from Allen but win 3-4 games? Or 2) Win 8 games ugly and enter next season without a confident grasp of who will be our long term QB? /smh @ these stupid mutually exclusive exercises. We all got too much time on our hands. How about win 8 or more games ugly = enters next season WITH a confident grasp on our long term QB. Winning ugly will develop him too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klos63 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Why are these the only options? How about help Allen develop as quickly as possible and win games as often as possible, while trying to develop other players as well. The Vikings game was not an ugly win. The defense played well yesterday, they were not ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinnearlysghost88 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Do both simultaneously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubs Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 You can do both. BOOM! Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkeerie Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: If a young QB believes winning the game is all on his shoulders, and if the team is pass-heavy behind a ticky-tack OL, that young QB will inevitably press and make bad passing decisions. Allen needs to know that if he throws the ball away because he's under pressure or he doesn't understand what he sees, the rest of the team's got his back. That was Allen's life at Wyoming. He had no supporting cast and had to win ball games any way HE could. Part of his development is to unlearn that. Keep the drive. Keep the strong will to win. Keep the heart. Lose that it's all on you. Joe B is the one who has pushed this question and narrative. He posted it in his column and talked about it in his newscast last night. You can see how Josh is learning and developing game to game. It's one lesson at a time (get the ball out quicker, throw it away if there's nothing there, etc)...but it is development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostbitmic Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 On a few occasions yesterday I saw Allen calling out a blitzer and blocking assignments, possibly even calling an audible because there was something he was seeing and didn't like. I don't think he did that in his first couple of games and to me that's a sign of development. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: The premise of your question is flawed. There is no reason you can't do both. He developed yesterday, despite all the hogwash saying he didn't. He was more decisive with reads, threw the ball away when he needed to. Things like that show development. The offense was awful yesterday and the scheme was neanderthal. They won (largely because of the scheme, ironically enough!), so I'm happy, but let's not sugarcoat reality. They cannot roll out that gameplan against teams with good offenses and QBs better than Mariota. To be fair, I also think they know that. As for the original question, wins are hugely important for progress, so I disagree with the premise. I'm of the mind that losses are nothing more and nothing less than losses. I'm not a "moral victory" kind of guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Fixit Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 I’m not saying anything until Benjamin is traded or cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 You can do both. Big Ben was not asked to do a ton his first few years, and in his 3rd year had a NEGATIVE TD-INT ratio. The key for young QB's is to lean on the running game, find competent WR's (we can't do that right now), and let the game speed and decision making catch-up to the QB. Even Rosen didn't do/wasn't asked to do much yesterday because Arizona remembered they have D. Johnson. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 14 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: The offense was awful yesterday and the scheme was neanderthal. They won (largely because of the scheme, ironically enough!), so I'm happy, but let's not sugarcoat reality. They cannot roll out that gameplan against teams with good offenses and QBs better than Mariota. To be fair, I also think they know that. As for the original question, wins are hugely important for progress, so I disagree with the premise. I'm of the mind that losses are nothing more and nothing less than losses. I'm not a "moral victory" kind of guy. Was the offense awful or was the Titans D good? And if you can run the ball well, you run the ball. And let your young QB continue to grow and develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, DuckyBoys said: this is why I said yesterdays game was unsatisfying and got crushed for it #1 priority to me for this year is developing Allen Not going to happen if they try and hide him with this type of game plan week in week out. Than you should have titled your thread "unsatisfying offensive game plan" rather than "unsatisfying win". You put the focus on the wrong thing before anyone read the first word of your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McClappy Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 How is this and either or scenario? The guy just had his 1st NFL 4TH QTR comeback win and learned nothing in the OP's mind? I don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Was the offense awful or was the Titans D good? And if you can run the ball well, you run the ball. And let your young QB continue to grow and develop. They needed the entire 60 minutes to put up 13 points. Scoring 13 points loses you 9 games out of 10 in today's NFL. TN's D is good, but still. Scoring involves effectively passing the ball. The Bills are currently pathetic at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, MAJBobby said: The Priority should be Development of Josh Allen. If that isnt your No1 priority then You really need to re-evaluate. McD and Company have captial breaking the drought. That capital needs to be used to make sure this entire season is about developing Allen. Then again that should have been it from Jump and well we see how that went with some bogus competition Totally agree. And, for the love of everything Holy, please have Daboll stop designing runs with Josh Allen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 These two things are not mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, jeremy2020 said: These two things are not mutually exclusive. Agree with that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Hebert19 said: Both. We won ugly and he learned he doesn't need to look downfield every play. One doesn't mean the other isnt happening. Yep, they aren’t mutually exclusive. That being said, an offensive system that runs the ball 2/3 of the time is going a bit far in one direction. A run heavy team, in the modern NFL, has a roughly 50/50 split. That’s the number I’d like them to shoot for, but every game has its own rhythm. I don’t think we can read too much from a single game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 24 minutes ago, MDH said: Yep, they aren’t mutually exclusive. That being said, an offensive system that runs the ball 2/3 of the time is going a bit far in one direction. A run heavy team, in the modern NFL, has a roughly 50/50 split. That’s the number I’d like them to shoot for, but every game has its own rhythm. I don’t think we can read too much from a single game. Well said MDH. I think the only reason they ran so much yesterday is they got an early lead and the D was playing outstanding. Bills play the Texans who play the run great. Ranked 8th best against run with only 1 TD by rushing. They are much worse (middle of the pack) against the pass and have given up 12 TDs passing. I'm not buying into the narrative that the OL has improved. They will be tested very hard against the Texans. Wouldn't surprise me if Daboll calls more 1st down throws. If JA is successful with that, Bills got a chance to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctk232 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rebel101 said: But they have to give him this type of game plan. He doesn’t have a full command of the offense and cannot run the field properly. So they have to bring him along slowly and teach him things little by little. They tried to give him a heavier workload last week against the Packers and he couldn’t handle it. Someone can’t learn everything at once it needs to be taught step by step. That’s like giving a 2nd grader calculus before they even know how to multiply it would never work. He needs to learn piece by piece step by step and hopefully things open up and become clearly for him. It is unrealistic to think Allen they way he was coming out of college would come in and be able to grasp an entire NFL offense and immediately learn how to read the field and pick apart a defense. They have it give him more and more each week and hope he figures it out. They tried to overload him against the Packers it didn’t work out. While I agree they should, and likely have, alleviated the load for him to carry at present, I think the game plan of run first we saw yesterday was more a direct result of the Titans blaring lack of run defense compared to their solidly strong zone coverage secondary. We game planned appropriately as it turns out and showed up on defense. I think this style will help Allen more, but what happens when we come up against a strong run defense? Back onto the throw often and learn quick train. Allen honestly needs both - he needs to feel like the offense is still in his hands and that he needs to do more than manage it, but he also needs to not be overloaded, like you mention with GB. To OP's question - develop the kid, we are all tired of winning single digit games and having that be the goal... Edited October 8, 2018 by ctk232 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel101 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, ctk232 said: While I agree they should, and likely have, alleviated the load for him to carry at present, I think the game plan of run first we saw yesterday was more a direct result of the Titans blaring lack of run defense compared to their solidly strong zone coverage secondary. We game planned appropriately as it turns out and showed up on defense. I think this style will help Allen more, but what happens when we come up against a strong run defense? Back onto the throw often and learn quick train. Allen honestly needs both - he needs to feel like the offense is still in his hands and that he needs to do more than manage it, but he also needs to not be overloaded, like you mention with GB. To OP's question - develop the kid, we are all tired of winning single digit games and having that be the goal... Agreed he will have to do more but he isn’t ready. Daboll is going to have to devise a gameplay that is quick reads and he is going to have to create a plan where Allen not necessarily has to read the entire field but maybe inside the safeties so instead of cutting the field in half by moving the pocket he would cut it in half horizontally if that makes sense to you but this would require our slot RBs and TEs to be more involved in the game and throwing way more but hopefully they can create a gamrplwb game here this is his reads and eventually Allen will begin to piece things together. I mean at the end of the day it all comes down to Allen and how well he can process information and translate that into football. He can say all the right things and have the best teachers(not saying he does or doesn’t) but if he doesn’t get he just doesn’t get it then they are !@#$ed and out of a job in a few years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berky1010 Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 5 hours ago, dlonce said: Why does it have to be mutually exclusive? The whole idea is to win. You can’t win and develop at the same time? That’s just not true. You are missing the spirit of the question. It's more of a would you rather. Personally, I see no way in which this teams makes the playoffs this year so the #1 thing I am looking for in each game now is for Allen to develop. Because if that happens, we have a clear cut plan when we enter into an off-season with tons of capital to work with. If he doesn't develop and isn't our sure fire QB next year, well that just means there is going to be a hell of a lot of questions again. So while you can pretend that we can be happy by winning on last second field goals to average teams, ultimately what this team needs is a franchise QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 You try and win games with Allen at quarterback...period! The Bills did the same thing with Joe Ferguson in 1973. This is a thread about nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctk232 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rebel101 said: Agreed he will have to do more but he isn’t ready. Daboll is going to have to devise a gameplay that is quick reads and he is going to have to create a plan where Allen not necessarily has to read the entire field but maybe inside the safeties so instead of cutting the field in half by moving the pocket he would cut it in half horizontally if that makes sense to you but this would require our slot RBs and TEs to be more involved in the game and throwing way more but hopefully they can create a gamrplwb game here this is his reads and eventually Allen will begin to piece things together. I mean at the end of the day it all comes down to Allen and how well he can process information and translate that into football. He can say all the right things and have the best teachers(not saying he does or doesn’t) but if he doesn’t get he just doesn’t get it then they are !@#$ed and out of a job in a few years I like the one step at a time approach, but if Allen is as raw as we all suspect and was projected to be, we have to be mindful of what he is developing a sense for, and what he feels is the norm in the NFL based on his experience. We also want him to experience and develop skills for an offense that we want to see down the line, which I believe would be pass heavy and variable routes. If we limit him this season to short/mid throws in a run heavy offense, how ready will he even be by next year? He still needs those games where he needs to win with his arm - whether or not we do shouldn't be in the question as long as he is developing the right skills to succeed in future years. Not that I'm in support of tanking, but priority has to be given to proper development this year regardless of the W-L record if we ever hope to have double digit wins again. Edited October 8, 2018 by ctk232 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMDman Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 I hate this site sometimes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgrochester55 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 (edited) Yesterday is the best way to develop Allen for the time being. Why does anyone think that this is an either/or? We all knew that he was going to be a multi-year project. Poor planning by the team in the offseason and preseason caused us to rush putting him in behind a terrible line and possibly the worst WR corp that I have ever seen on any NFL team. It makes no sense to have Allen air it out like Brady or Rodgers would with this offensive unit. That would be certain failure for Allen or any of the other three rookie QB's playing. Yes, the stats are ugly. Yes ,Buffalo should have planned better before the season, but they didn't and the situation is as it presents itself until next year. I am just glad that they look like they are signing Derek Anderson to give Allen a veteran mentor and guarantee us not seeing Peterman if Allen is hurt or benched. Edited October 8, 2018 by dgrochester55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boater Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 The priority is winning. Or better said, trying to win. Or said yet another way, not deliberately tanking. So win ugly. You have to try and win each and every game. Not trying to win allows a cancer to spread in the locker room---not very McDermott-ish. Allen will develop while the team tries to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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