Question: Can passing accuracy issues be fixed?

[GreggTX]

Watching the 2nd half of the Carolina game, it was pretty clear that Allen has problems with accuracy. Sometimes he's right on the money and other times he missed badly.

 

So I wonder. I've seen a lot of QB's come and go and I've seen very few, if any, that have been able to fix an inaccurate arm. I know Eli Manning was strictly a bomber when he started and he learned to work the short game and to throw with touch, but was he inaccurate? EJ Manuel never fixed that problem.

 

Will this be Josh's downfall or can coaching and practice get him to be more accurate because I really believe that if it doesn't improve considerably, it could sink his career like it did to EJ. How can you retrain an arm like that?

[MarkAF43]

Does this really need its own thread? I'm pretty sure accuracy has been discussed several times before. 

[Dante]

Watched a different game and QB than me apparently. Loved the release and I thought the accuracy was just fine. Some of the deep balls were just off a little. Not enough (as far as I see it) to say the pass was inaccurate. It was refreshing to see a QB actually make confident decisions and many of them were throw the ball beyond 12 yards. I liked it.

[Logic]

To me, if a QB has "area code" accuracy, he'll ALWAYS have "area code" accuracy.

Josh Allen's inaccuracy isn't of the "he can't function as an NFL QB" variety, in my opinion. It IS, however, often placed where his WR has to make an adjustment to catch it. Just a little behind, a bit low, a bit high, etc. What this does is limit the WR's ability to run after the catch and gain additional yardage. On a slant pattern, for instance, an accurate throw in stride can be the difference between an 8 yard gain and a 48 yard gain, simply based on the placement of the pass. As such, I believe Allen CAN be a good NFL quarterback in the mold of a Cam Newton. I do NOT ever see his "area code" accuracy improving. Bills WRs will likely never be RAC all-stars as long as Allen's under center. All of this is just my opinion, of course, and I freely admit I could be way off base.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

Watching the 2nd half of the Carolina game, it was pretty clear that Allen has problems with accuracy. Sometimes he's right on the money and other times he missed badly.

 

So I wonder. I've seen a lot of QB's come and go and I've seen very few, if any, that have been able to fix an inaccurate arm. I know Eli Manning was strictly a bomber when he started and he learned to work the short game and to throw with touch, but was he inaccurate? EJ Manuel never fixed that problem.

 

Will this be Josh's downfall or can coaching and practice get him to be more accurate because I really believe that if it doesn't improve considerably, it could sink his career like it did to EJ. How can you retrain an arm like that?

 

EJ was accurate enough to be a solid NFL starter. 

 

All the other issues piled on did him in

 

[Bangarang]

Which throws did he miss badly on?

 

I think accuracy can be improved on with footwork changes but I don’t think it can be drastically changed. Either you’re accurate or you’re not. Rarely have we seen QBs who had major accuracy issues in college go on to be accurate in the NFL.

[ColoradoBills]

Accuracy can be improved especially from QB with only two years of college work.

[GreggTX]

12 minutes ago, MarkAF43 said:

Does this really need its own thread? I'm pretty sure accuracy has been discussed several times before. 

Thanks for sharing this keen insight!

[OldTimer1960]

I saw a couple passes that weren’t close, though I would speculate that he and the receiver weren’t on the same page on those occasions.  Other than that, I was pleased with his passes.  

[Juice_32]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Which throws did he miss badly on?

 

I think accuracy can be improved on with footwork changes but I don’t think it can be drastically changed. Either you’re accurate or you’re not. Rarely have we seen QBs who had major accuracy issues in college go on to be accurate in the NFL.

 

This, I'd really like to know the throws he missed badly on? I didn't see any other than the hook shot on 4th down and to even call that a pass is stretching it.

[fergie's ire]

9 minutes ago, Dante said:

Watched a different game and QB than me apparently. Loved the release and I thought the accuracy was just fine. Some of the deep balls were just off a little. Not enough (as far as I see it) to say the pass was inaccurate. It was refreshing to see a QB actually make confident decisions and many of them were throw the ball beyond 12 yards. I liked it.

I would agree for the most part, but I am not even sure about some of the deep balls.  On one of them, Tasker pointed out that Foster was watching the ball the whole way and that if he just spotted the ball...ran...and then looked again at the last minute, he almost certainly would have caught up with the ball.  On another, Foster gave up on the play.  Yes, one was out of bounds which is an accuracy problem.  On the passes where he missed badly, it looked like he and the receiver were on different pages.  So, I worry about him reading defenses and knowing where his receiver is going to be...but those aren't accuracy problems.

 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

...strictly opinion...if you arrive at the NFL level with some basics/understanding of the speed and complexity of the game (a/k/a reads, progressions, etc), you're one step ahead in the transition....some do and many don't......without it, the struggle to succeed becomes more uphill IMO...accuracy issues can be fixed or improved, but highly contingent upon establishing rhythm/rapport with your receiving corp....

Edited August 12, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Mr. WEO]

He''l be fine.

[Rc2catch]

Accuracy is kinda overrated. To a certain extent. 

Peyton and Brady and Brees obviously have pinpoint accuracy on basically any read on the field. 

Guys like Brett Favre and Big Ben aren’t what I would consider an accurate quarterback, but they can make plays period. That’s mostly what it boils down to, can you make a play when it matters? And just like pitching in baseball when a quarterback has extremely high velocity you’re bound to miss your spots sometimes. Question about Allen is are we trying to groom Jamarcus Russel or Jay Cutler kinda velocity quarterbacks or are we grooming a Favre or Ben kinda prospect. Footwork and arm angle can always be modified to possibly help/hurt accuracy but I do believe guys like brees and manning are just born with the gift not progressed into it. 

[jethro_tull]

From what I understand passing accuracy with time to use proper footwork - example in a well protected pocket- can be improved.  Passing accuracy while on the run and under pressure is more of a have it or don't kind of thing.  

Arm strength, arm talent, poise under pressure, work ethic and leadership are all valuable QB qualities that you must be born with.  Me personally I'll take all of those traits along with bad accuracy under pressure any day of the week.  

[bigK14094]

Easier to fix than a tendency to brain cramp  (JP Losman)

[bills11]

Accuracy can be improved depending on the reason for the innacuracy . EJ Manuel couldn't improve his accuracy because his entire mechanics were unnatural from his throwing motion to footwork . Josh Allen has fluid throwing mechanics and footwork that can be improved it's the small details that make a big difference. Just look at Aaron Rodgers in college vs NFL ..Tedford overcoached Rodgers changed his mechanics his accuracy suffered ...in the NFL mcarthy had him go back to how he threw naturally in highschool .

[thebandit27]

Yes.

 

See Josh McCown, Russell Wilson, Matt Ryan, and Carson Palmer with their significant improvement from college to pros.

 

Especially McCown. He was a career 51% passer in college; he went 67% for the season in 2017.

Edited August 12, 2018 by thebandit27

[Andy1]

Go watch the "Every throw from JA" in the Panthers game again. At which point in the video clip is his throw unacceptably inaccurate? On one play it looked like a possible miscommunication with him and Ray Ray. Other than that, I don't see it. I see more WOW plays than poor plays. 

 

In the end, like Rc2 said, its about making plays. It looks to me like he definitely can do that. We'll see in the future.  

[hondo in seattle]

A couple thoughts...

 

First, some QBs are really good at finding the open guy.  Other QBs are really good at threading the needle or throwing a receiver open.  Either ways gets you a completion.   Ideally, a NFL QB can do both - find the open guy and/or thread the needle - but not all actually can. 

 

Second, inaccuracy has different causes.  If Allen is just genetically inferior to Brees et al (worse hand-eye coordination or whatever), it can't be fixed.  But if his inconsistent accuracy is a function of poor biomechanics then good coaching can make a difference. 

 

In fact, some QB guru or another observed that Allen's accuracy woes are due to mechanics.  Specifically, Allen's not disciplined with his feet.  His stance varies from snap to snap.  When he's not solid in the bottom half of his body, his passes are often errant.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[billspro]

1 hour ago, Dante said:

Watched a different game and QB than me apparently. Loved the release and I thought the accuracy was just fine. Some of the deep balls were just off a little. Not enough (as far as I see it) to say the pass was inaccurate. It was refreshing to see a QB actually make confident decisions and many of them were throw the ball beyond 12 yards. I liked it.

 

I don’t think he had a single inaccurate throw in the game. Maybe the one when he got smoked as he threw but the WR still caught it.

[TH3]

6 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

A couple thoughts...

 

First, some QBs are really good at finding the open guy.  Other QBs are really good at threading the needle or throwing a receiver open.  Either ways gets you a completion.   Ideally, a NFL QB can do both - find the open guy and/or thread the needle - but not all actually can. 

 

Second, inaccuracy has different causes.  If Allen is just genetically inferior to Brees et al (worse hand-eye coordination or whatever), it can't be fixed.  But if his inconsistent accuracy is a function of poor biomechanics then good coaching can make a difference. 

 

In fact, some QB guru or another observed that Allen's accuracy woes are due to mechanics.  Specifically, Allen's not disciplined with his feet.  His stance varies from snap to snap.  When he's not solid in the bottom half of his body, his passes are often errant.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do think so much!

 

1 hour ago, GreggTX said:

Watching the 2nd half of the Carolina game, it was pretty clear that Allen has problems with accuracy. Sometimes he's right on the money and other times he missed badly.

 

So I wonder. I've seen a lot of QB's come and go and I've seen very few, if any, that have been able to fix an inaccurate arm. I know Eli Manning was strictly a bomber when he started and he learned to work the short game and to throw with touch, but was he inaccurate? EJ Manuel never fixed that problem.

 

Will this be Josh's downfall or can coaching and practice get him to be more accurate because I really believe that if it doesn't improve considerably, it could sink his career like it did to EJ. How can you retrain an arm like that?

Some analysis might help....would his percentage be higher if he was dumping off all day do check downs?

[1ManRaid]

Sounds a lot like confirmation bias to me.  "Oh look, an incomplete pass.  This clearly confirms my already entrenched opinion on his abilities."

[JaBu]

You generally hear, as many here have said, that foot work adjustments can improve accuracy.  However, during the draft Troy Aikman said accuracy can't be improved. So that's one "expert's" opinion.

[Shaw66]

You can't use one half in the guy's first preseason game to determine if he's an accurate thrower.  New game, new offense, new line, new stadium, new receivers.  

 

It's simply too early.   

[brianthomas]

Considering all we've seen of Allen thus far is him playing with our 3rd stringers, I think it's too early to say he has accuracy issues. Every QB does to some extent, Allen included, but how many of those inaccurate throws were due to pressure from missed blocking assignments or from a WR slowing down on a route? Allen flat out made some throws I haven't seen completed before, such as that scramble & throw off his back foot to Khari Lee, or that bullet in the endzone to Ray Ray. Before we make judgements on his abilities, lets see more of what he can do with our #1 receivers & OL.

But yes, proper coaching on a QB's release, footwork, presnap & post snap reads can all make a positive difference.

[Heavy Kevi]

I think accuracy can be improved.

 

While a terribly inaccurate passer is very unlikely to become a "small window" guy, other factors and changes can have a positive impact on effective accuracy.

 

I am of the opinion that Allen had the challenge of playing with lower talent in college. I believe that's what I saw Thursday night- pretty good, catchable throws (even the deep ones) that a better receiver would have made. I also think some coaching will have a positive impact as well. Combine those factors, and I think he will be accurate enough to be very successfull at tue NFL level. I do not know if that will materialize, but it won't be accuracy problems that sink him, if he indeed sinks.

[MarkAF43]

1 hour ago, GreggTX said:

Thanks for sharing this keen insight!

Learn to use the search function. This did not need its own thread. 

[bills11]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

A couple thoughts...

 

First, some QBs are really good at finding the open guy.  Other QBs are really good at threading the needle or throwing a receiver open.  Either ways gets you a completion.   Ideally, a NFL QB can do both - find the open guy and/or thread the needle - but not all actually can. 

 

Second, inaccuracy has different causes.  If Allen is just genetically inferior to Brees et al (worse hand-eye coordination or whatever), it can't be fixed.  But if his inconsistent accuracy is a function of poor biomechanics then good coaching can make a difference. 

 

In fact, some QB guru or another observed that Allen's accuracy woes are due to mechanics.  Specifically, Allen's not disciplined with his feet.  His stance varies from snap to snap.  When he's not solid in the bottom half of his body, his passes are often errant.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a very good overlooked pt ..theres different types of throwers ..Josh Allen is never gonna be the peyton/Brees/ brady hit the back foot spray 40 passes a game for 380 yards with pinpoint accuracy ...think of him like a big Ben or Russ Wilson or Carson Wentz  guys who throw the ball with excellent velocity and are productive on explosive plays rather than pinpoint accuracy . 

[Formerly Allan in MD]

5 hours ago, GreggTX said:

Watching the 2nd half of the Carolina game, it was pretty clear that Allen has problems with accuracy.

I watched the same 2cd half.  Clearly, the third string offensive line is offensive.  What do you expect from a rookie quarterback in his first outing, under the circumstances?

[MAJBobby]

Hes accuracy (meaning ball placement) can absolutely be better with mechanics and throw speeds and footwork. 

 

And really to be honest there wasnt many really bad Accuracy issues in his first game. 

[oldmanfan]

6 hours ago, GreggTX said:

Watching the 2nd half of the Carolina game, it was pretty clear that Allen has problems with accuracy. Sometimes he's right on the money and other times he missed badly.

 

So I wonder. I've seen a lot of QB's come and go and I've seen very few, if any, that have been able to fix an inaccurate arm. I know Eli Manning was strictly a bomber when he started and he learned to work the short game and to throw with touch, but was he inaccurate? EJ Manuel never fixed that problem.

 

Will this be Josh's downfall or can coaching and practice get him to be more accurate because I really believe that if it doesn't improve considerably, it could sink his career like it did to EJ. How can you retrain an arm like that?

Yes.  You can.  And yes, the assumption  that he's inaccurate is inaccurate.

6 hours ago, fergie's ire said:

I would agree for the most part, but I am not even sure about some of the deep balls.  On one of them, Tasker pointed out that Foster was watching the ball the whole way and that if he just spotted the ball...ran...and then looked again at the last minute, he almost certainly would have caught up with the ball.  On another, Foster gave up on the play.  Yes, one was out of bounds which is an accuracy problem.  On the passes where he missed badly, it looked like he and the receiver were on different pages.  So, I worry about him reading defenses and knowing where his receiver is going to be...but those aren't accuracy problems.

 

How many QBs in the league have pin point accuracy on throws that travel 65 yards?  Answer:  few if any

[Fadingpain]

5 hours ago, Andy1 said:

Go watch the "Every throw from JA" in the Panthers game again. At which point in the video clip is his throw unacceptably inaccurate? On one play it looked like a possible miscommunication with him and Ray Ray. Other than that, I don't see it. I see more WOW plays than poor plays. 

 

In the end, like Rc2 said, its about making plays. It looks to me like he definitely can do that. We'll see in the future.  

How about the first play when he was in the game.  The bomb.

 

That was thrown 3 yards out of bounds.

 

 

[Augie]

5 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

A couple thoughts...

 

First, some QBs are really good at finding the open guy.  Other QBs are really good at threading the needle or throwing a receiver open.  Either ways gets you a completion.   Ideally, a NFL QB can do both - find the open guy and/or thread the needle - but not all actually can. 

 

Second, inaccuracy has different causes.  If Allen is just genetically inferior to Brees et al (worse hand-eye coordination or whatever), it can't be fixed.  But if his inconsistent accuracy is a function of poor biomechanics then good coaching can make a difference. 

 

In fact, some QB guru or another observed that Allen's accuracy woes are due to mechanics.  Specifically, Allen's not disciplined with his feet.  His stance varies from snap to snap.  When he's not solid in the bottom half of his body, his passes are often errant.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I used to live in a resort area where there was a world famous tennis academy who taught tennis teaching pros to be better at teaching. I remember hearing a “coach’s coach” tell them they spend too much time on grip, backswing, follow through, etc. He said “80% of the game is from the waist down”. I’m not sticking to that number, but your base and footwork are critical. Can he be “fixed” to the point of being a Franchise Guy? I have no friggin’ idea! 

 

He looked better than I expected out there in his first game playing with (and yes, against) mostly scrubs. 

[SoCoBills]

Cover 1 posted some stats from that first preseason game and according to them Allen was pressured ed if I remember correctly on over 43% of his dropbacks. Considering that I thought he looked very accurate. 

 

EDIT: Here is cover 1s post in quotes:

 

“% Blitzed in game 1 per PFF
Peterman 30%
McCarron 8.3%
Allen 39%

Under pressure % 

Peterman 20%
McCarron 33.3%
Allen 43.5%

#Bills #Billsmafia“

 

Also - the “bad misses” seemed more to be WR & QB not being on the same page than they were inaccurate. There were also several drops in that game which make the stat line look way less favorable than it should have. 

 

My only real real issue with Allen from game one is he seemed to trust and rely on his arm strength a bit too much because he’s probably used to not having to throw on time to fit balls in. He throw some balls to the sideline late which is always a risky move. 

 

 

As far as your question: Accuracy is rarely fixed if a QB is inaccurate but Allen seems very accurate when he’s set properly and clean so yea - it’s no easy task but it can be done. Some guys are inaccurate even when set with a clean pocket like EJ for example. Those are the guys where hopes are slim to none. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by SoCoBills

[BillsfanAZ]

There is a difference between in not being accurate and not making the right read as a WR. One throw Allen threw it to a different spot than where the WR was and he tapped his chest that it was his fault. There were several drops of good passes as well. I didnt see Allen missing open WR's. He threw several passes that were on the money so the receiver can get extra yardage. The pass to Lee off of his back foot was ill advised but he put it in a spot that only Lee was tall enough to get. Allen is going to misfire on throws. Whenever Allen plays he is going to miss on some throws.....just like every QB starting out.

[Luka]

Why do people talk about Allen's accuracy still? He looked on the money for the most part. Foster screwed him a couple times, not finishing routes. Prohel and Ray Ray dropped a pass. And he was under a lot more pressure than Peterman or McCarron. Once he gets some protection and gets comfortable with checking the ball down once in awhile, his completion percentage will go up.

Because that's what we're actually talking about, his completion percentage. His in game ball placement is just fine.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Remember when QB guru David Shaw was going to fix the issues of Bills QB past? 

 

I think largely guys either have it or they don’t and most times you can tell early on in their career. 

 

Good is good. The bar of QB play is low in Buffalo - Trent, Fitzpatrick, EJ, Orton, Taylor, Peterman. 

 

I can live through the picks with Allen, but it would be a change to see a Bills QB move the offense up and down the field some and force these Coaches to put more in the playbook than running the ball and dumpoffs because its Buffalo and it’s cold outside. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Straight Hucklebuck

[SoTier]

I think Allen's accuracy is decent enough.   Certainly it doesn't appear to be terminal to his becoming a franchise QB if he can master all the other stuff he needs to master, and it's that other "stuff" that will likely determine his fate more than his accuracy (or lack of same). 

 

I'm more concerned that Allen demonstrate that he makes good decisions based on making the right reads as quickly as possible ... and that only comes with some experience, so it's going to take him a season or more to show if he can do it consistently.

 

 

[atlbillsfan1975]

Please watch Farve, Roethlisberger, Rodgers and so on. They all are ‘inaccurate ‘. But they all trust their arms and make throws when needed. Allen is capable of being the same type of guy as those three.