WR’s checking with officials when lining up

[LabattBlue]

Someone clarify…

 

Are the WR’s asking if they are onside, or are they asking about the illegal formation/covering up/not covering up?

 

I believe it is the latter, but not positive. 

[Bangarang]

I would assume all of the above 

[SoCal Deek]

It’s generally the latter. Nobody is dumb enough to be as far offside as Toney was. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

It’s generally the latter. Nobody is dumb enough to be as far offside as Toney was. 

He’s almost lucky the blue line was off in the broadcast haha it’s really even worse than it looked on tv 

[LeGOATski]

I always thought they were just lining themselves up with the stick and making sure everyone outside them is behind.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

The other thing about checking in with the ref that everyone is talking about is the fact that Toney is in the slot  close to the line. It’s quite a bit more difficult to be getting confirmation from the down judge or line judge on the sideline when you’re so far away. It’s more typical for an outside flank receiver to be checking in.

[BaaadThingsMan]

He lined up that far Offside because he had two picks to pull off

[CaptnCoke11]

It’s not the refs responsibility to line up the players 

[BillsFan4]

From ESPN:

In a pool report, referee Carl Cheffers said down judge Mike Carr saw Toney lined up offside.

"Ultimately, they are responsible for wherever they line up,'' Cheffers said. "No warning is required, especially if they are lined up so far Offside where they're actually blocking our view of the ball.

"We would give them a warning if it was anywhere close, but this particular one is beyond a warning.''

[mikemac2001]

1 minute ago, BaaadThingsMan said:

He lined up that far Offside because he had two picks to pull off

Haha ya they aren’t even talking about that he runs into kelce defender like 10 yards downfield 

[WotAGuy]

Didn’t the ref in the pool report after the game say they will give warnings or guidance if asked?

[BaaadThingsMan]

Just now, mikemac2001 said:

Haha ya they aren’t even talking about that he runs into kelce defender like 10 yards downfield 

Right! He ran into 3 defenders all together 

[Big Turk]

9 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Someone clarify…

 

Are the WR’s asking if they are onside, or are they asking about the illegal formation/covering up/not covering up?

 

I believe it is the latter, but not positive. 

 

I think all of it.  Most times, from what various players have chimed in with, they are being told to move up so that would point to an illegal formation being the concern.  Lining up ahead of the ball and the center and only inches away from Von Miller is almost unfathomable for a player who has played in hundreds of games throughout every level of football and taken tens of thousands of reps at the WR position.

[margolbe]

I thought Andy Reid's comments were quite telling in that he expected a warning from the referee regarding the illegal formation.  Is he kidding or is this evidence of the expectation of a two-tiered system regarding officiating favoring the "darling" teams.  We are luck that we had this ref crew this week.  If we had the one we had in Philadelphia, we would have lost this game.

[MrEpsYtown]

My experience with it is that they are telling the ref if they are on or off the line and confirming they are good. When receivers are wide, they sometimes need that confirmation since they are so far from the ball. Typically that conversation doesn't happen in a tight bunch like they had with Toney, just like a tight end would not check if he is on or off. He's literally right there. Toney screwed up.  

[zow2]

This morning on ESPN Rex said in all his years of coaching he’s never seen a ref warn a receiver.  If anything, they will gesture to Dline or Oline.  but that’s about it.

[Einstein's Dog]

19 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

From ESPN:

In a pool report, referee Carl Cheffers said down judge Mike Carr saw Toney lined up offside.

"Ultimately, they are responsible for wherever they line up,'' Cheffers said. "No warning is required, especially if they are lined up so far Offside where they're actually blocking our view of the ball.

"We would give them a warning if it was anywhere close, but this particular one is beyond a warning.''

Would they give the Defensive players warning if it was anywhere close?  I don't get that.

[NoSaint]

10 minutes ago, margolbe said:

I thought Andy Reid's comments were quite telling in that he expected a warning from the referee regarding the illegal formation.  Is he kidding or is this evidence of the expectation of a two-tiered system regarding officiating favoring the "darling" teams.  We are luck that we had this ref crew this week.  If we had the one we had in Philadelphia, we would have lost this game.

that’s relatively normal but not with a player inside and in a rush. Around the perimeter, light guidance is par for the course. Also if on the fence, they might nudge post play to watch it but if a yard over the line it isn’t going uncalled. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by NoSaint

[DrDawkinstein]

31 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Someone clarify…

 

Are the WR’s asking if they are onside, or are they asking about the illegal formation/covering up/not covering up?

 

I believe it is the latter, but not positive. 

 

Usually the former. It's not the refs job to tell them they have an illegal formation, but the refs will help them be on the line instead of Offside.

[US Egg]

Mahomes cried refs hadn’t been calling that on WR’s is an admission they routinely test the rules.

 

If that’s the case here, boo-hoo, they got caught.

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Would they give the Defensive players warning if it was anywhere close?  I don't get that.

 

I think they would. I think it's one of those, "hey man be careful you are really close to being Offside. Back up." To me that's a warning. If they are lined up Offside, that's a flag. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

36 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

It’s generally the latter. Nobody is dumb enough to be as far offside as Toney was. 

 

He wasn't even like... wide.  

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Usually the former. It's not the refs job to tell them they have an illegal formation, but the refs will help them be on the line instead of Offside.

Toney never even looked at a ref so it was impossible to tell him anyway.

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Toney never even looked at a ref so it was impossible to tell him anyway.

 

Oh absolutely. All of this is on Toney. Not surprising as he may be the dumbest person in the NFL right now.

[QLBillsFan]

19 minutes ago, zow2 said:

This morning on ESPN Rex said in all his years of coaching he’s never seen a ref warn a receiver.  If anything, they will gesture to Dline or Oline.  but that’s about it.

Bills had our OG flagged for lining up Offside on a big running play earlier in the year. Never seen that before . But that’s on Toney and his QB, sorry Patty! 

[boyst]

the refs are there to assist in the game and will give guidance on such things like this.

 

i've always found if you treat them right they'll treat you right. i had told them i was having hands to the face when playing TE. the guy told me if i want that called then he might start calling me for holding too.. haha

[All_Pro_Bills]

15 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Usually the former. It's not the refs job to tell them they have an illegal formation, but the refs will help them be on the line instead of Offside.

The most abused and uncalled illegal formation penalty is when the OT's are way off the Center a couple yards back to "cheat" on pass protection.  The ref's need to crack down on this infraction.  On the Toney offside the RT was well behind the rule of thumb of having their helmet parallel to the centers belt line.  His helmet was behind the center's butt and his back foot was 3 yards off the LOS.  They could have called that too. 

[stevewin]

Pretty sure the context of Rex's comments was that sometimes for OL/DL you'd get a warning between plays for non-egregious issues  - your tackle needs to move up a bit more, your DT is crowding the ball - that you would then tell the player to correct for subsequent plays.  And he stated multiple times that never happened for a receiver for the entire duration of his coaching career.

 

The mechanism for the receiver to be warned is to proactively check with the ref on the LOS.  This whole narrative Reid/Mahomes are trying to create that refs proactively warn receivers isn't a thing.

[schoolhouserock]

I seem to recall seeing on broadcasts several instances (over like 20 years) where the WR looks to the sideline and the ref gives him a subtle wave of the hand that conveys a message of “back up a step” to get the WR back onside. If Toney had just bothered to look, he likely would have received the same courtesy. It was Toney’s mistake.

[NewEra]

Multiple ex nfl WRs have stated that they ask the refs if they are onside.  That was said due to the talking point being the toney penalty.  I’m sure the answer is both, offside and illegal formation 

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, schoolhouserock said:

I seem to recall seeing on broadcasts several instances (over like 20 years) where the WR looks to the sideline and the ref gives him a subtle wave of the hand that conveys a message of “back up a step” to get the WR back onside. If Toney had just bothered to look, he likely would have received the same courtesy. It was Toney’s mistake.

What you are seeing is the WR checking to see if he’s lined up incorrectly so as to be ‘covering up’ the TE or other WR. He’s not checking to see if he’s over the line of scrimmage. The penalty he’s trying to avoid is illegal formation….not offside. 

[Virgil]

I've thought the same things.  Receivers on the outside will typically check in with the judge, but Toney wasn't on the outside.  He still could have checked in, but didn't.  Toney has no one to blame but himself.  I can't understand all the crying over this play.

 

For me, who's to say Mahomes only threw it deep because he saw the flag, thought it was defensive, and took a chance on a perceived free play.

[CNYfan]

1 minute ago, Virgil said:

I've thought the same things.  Receivers on the outside will typically check in with the judge, but Toney wasn't on the outside.  He still could have checked in, but didn't.  Toney has no one to blame but himself.  I can't understand all the crying over this play.

 

For me, who's to say Mahomes only threw it deep because he saw the flag, thought it was defensive, and took a chance on a perceived free play.

 

The bold is my thing.   Patrick couldn't make a play, became frustrated and blamed the refs when they had to look at their own failures.    

[Simon]

4 hours ago, NoSaint said:

that’s relatively normal but not with a player inside and in a rush. Around the perimeter, light guidance is par for the course.

This.

"you're off, 84" to a nearby boundary guy is within the norm.

Screaming halfway across the field to a slot WR who's hurrying around in the last couple minutes and paying no attention to you is not.

[CodeMonkey]

4 hours ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

It’s not the refs responsibility to line up the players 

Agreed.  But they should probably be consistent about it. Make it always be the players responsibility for the legality of the formation as well as offside.  Take away the warning/asking completely. And, of course, call it every time it happens.

Edited December 11, 2023 by CodeMonkey

[Virgil]

Just now, CNYfan said:

 

The bold is my thing.   Patrick couldn't make a play, became frustrated and blamed the refs when they had to look at their own failures.    

 

If it was a penalty within play, then maybe.  But a pre-snap flag before anything's happened on the field?  Yeah, get over it already.

 

If they want to see some backbreakingly bad penalties, let me pull up the Eagles tape

[SectionC3]

4 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Someone clarify…

 

Are the WR’s asking if they are onside, or are they asking about the illegal formation/covering up/not covering up?

 

I believe it is the latter, but not positive. 

Both.  Happens all the time.  But probably not for Toney because he was nearly inline.  He just lined up wrong, plain and simple. 

13 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

Agreed.  But they should probably be consistent about it. Make it always be the players responsibility for the legality of the formation as well as offside.  Take away the warning/asking completely. And, of course, call it every time it happens.

Asking is what prevents this from happening.  It’s good officiating. 

[947]

Every receiver is supposed to check-in with the ref. If you're on the line, you hold your fist forward while looking at the ref. The ref will either give you a thumbs-up or motion backwards or forward & give you the thumbs-up once you're good. If you're supposed to be off the line (slot), you hold a fist backwards & look at the ref, same process.

 

It's not a rule at any level of football that you have to check-in, but 99% of coaches require their players to do it. At the very least, if you cause an illegal formation penalty by not checking-in, you'll find yourself in the doghouse.

 

I coach 8th grade football, I had an issue with this twice this year, both resulting in penalties. The players got an earful about checking in on every single play.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

From what I have heard from ex-players today, one of the easiest and most common ways to get as much room as you can is to look to the sideline and check to see what the ref will allow. As in "is this good? Step back? Is this good?"

 

If you do the bare minimum and check, you can get away with it.

 

Toney did not do that in the slightest

[Returntoglory]

5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

It’s generally the latter. Nobody is dumb enough to be as far offside as Toney was. 

Oh but he was "only an inch or two"