Was their pass rush great? Or did our protection break down today?

[Success]

I'll kind of answer the 1st question - they DO have a great rush.

 

But we've faced other top tier lines, and Allen has had much more time.  He was harried all day today.  And when the line gave him a little time, it turns out they had to hold.

 

They were off today.  They've gotta do better than that if we're going to make a run.

 

[buffaloboyinATL]

Their pass rush is very good, especially when Chris Jones is on.  

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, Success said:

I'll kind of answer the 1st question - they DO have a great rush.

 

But we've faced other top tier lines, and Allen has had much more time.  He was harried all day today.  And when the line gave him a little time, it turns out they had to hold.

 

They were off today.  They've gotta do better than that if we're going to make a run.

 

I think guys weren’t getting open and/or Josh didn’t like what he was seeing. He held on to the ball longer than he normally does.  I thought KC pass rush was good but not amazing.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Interior OL play was the worst it was all season.  Then Dawkins and Brown had some clear misses too.  I thought the hold on Dawkins was a bit of an acting job or the pass rusher just fell. Not sure what others saw.  Josh did an ok job stepping up and moving away from the rush at times. Then other times like the 3rd and 27 simply held the ball too long.  

[Freddie's Dead]

Jones made O'Cyrus look like OTIS a few times (if you don't get the reference, look down the next time you go through a revolving door....).

Edited December 11, 2023 by Freddie's Dead

[LABILLBACKER]

There were some stunts with Jones & Karlaftis that bothered our OL.  But as I said before the season,  our Tackles have to step it up.  Josh was pressured the entire 2nd half.

[Goin Breakdown]

My thoughts after the game were that KC adjusted at the half and buffalo didn't  do good enough to respond. Josh did a couple josh things and the defense held up. 

[Sierra Foothills]

The Chiefs D has been coordinated by Steve Spagnuolo for the last 5 years.

 

I don't recall that their D under him has ever ranked very highly but they tend to play well in big games and he seems to scheme pressure better than most coordinators. I realize Chris Jones is an elite player but I think Spags does a great job creating pressure.

 

By contrast I was watching the Bills pass rush a bit today and though we sent extra rushers quite often, as has been the case most of the year it seemed like our pressures were too vanilla and easily blocked for the most part. By my untrained eye it seems like McDermott and Eric Washington need to use more stunts and play more games in the pass rush.

[BuffaloRebound]

Just now, Goin Breakdown said:

My thoughts after the game were that KC adjusted at the half and buffalo didn't  do good enough to respond. Josh did a couple josh things and the defense held up. 

Agreed.  Felt like Spagnuolo had Brady figured out in the 2nd half.  

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, Sierra Foothills said:

The Chiefs D has been coordinated by Steve Spagnuolo for the last 5 years.

 

I don't recall that their D under him has ever ranked very highly but they tend to play well in big games and he seems to scheme pressure better than most coordinators. I realize Chris Jones is an elite player but I think Spags does a great job creating pressure.

 

By contrast I was watching the Bills pass rush a bit today and though we sent extra rushers quite often, as has been the case most of the year it seemed like our pressures were too vanilla and easily blocked for the most part. By my untrained eye it seems like McDermott and Eric Washington need to use more stunts and play more games in the pass rush.

 

They have rebuilt that D with a lot of really good first and second year players...they are going to be very good for quite a while now on D.  If Mahomes can get some weapons around him they will be a scary team moving forward next year.

[Sierra Foothills]

2 minutes ago, Goin Breakdown said:

My thoughts after the game were that KC adjusted at the half and buffalo didn't  do good enough to respond. Josh did a couple josh things and the defense held up. 

 

I agree that KC made better halftime adjustments than we did. I also thought they outschemed us on both sides of the ball.

 

Josh was pressured as much if not more than in any game this year. I also noticed that when Josh was flushed he was always flushed to his left.

 

Another thing that jumped out at me was the horizontal throws in bunch formations. The Bills suck at these plays and should either redesign them or scrap them. By contrast it seemed that when KC ran these types of plays that they were successful.

 

Granted the Bills offense is one of the best in the league statistically but I feel like the best OCs in the league (Reid and Shanahan to name two) scheme players open better than the other teams. It seems like the Bills sometimes really struggle to get free runners in the defensive secondary.

 

JMO.

 

[Governor]

8 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

The Chiefs D has been coordinated by Steve Spagnuolo for the last 5 years.

 

I don't recall that their D under him has ever ranked very highly but they tend to play well in big games and he seems to scheme pressure better than most coordinators. I realize Chris Jones is an elite player but I think Spags does a great job creating pressure.

 

By contrast I was watching the Bills pass rush a bit today and though we sent extra rushers quite often, as has been the case most of the year it seemed like our pressures were too vanilla and easily blocked for the most part. By my untrained eye it seems like McDermott and Eric Washington need to use more stunts and play more games in the pass rush.

Chiefs defense started to look really good about 3/4 through last season and might be a little better right now. They were pretty banged up after the GB game so we should’ve had a much easier time putting some points on the board.

[Simon]

12 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Interior OL play was the worst it was all season.  Then Dawkins and Brown had some clear misses too.  I thought the hold on Dawkins was a bit of an acting job or the pass rusher just fell. Not sure what others saw.  Josh did an ok job stepping up and moving away from the rush at times. Then other times like the 3rd and 27 simply held the ball too long.  

Yeah, the middle 3 just sort of went to pieces in the second half; lots of missed communiques.

Then Omenihu really started working Dawkins hard as well.

I thought that the holding call was him tripping over his own feet while Dawkins had a hand in his collar for a second. I didn't see him really pull him, it was just unfortunate timing.

[QCity]

In the 2nd half the protection completely fell apart and Josh was running for his life. They have to clean this up.

[Starr Almighty]

33 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

Their pass rush is very good, especially when Chris Jones is on.  

This and I've been to this stadium it is extremely loud. The line may have had issues communicating as well

[Big Blitz]

I’m not sure wtf our oline did here.  
 

Allen is absurd 

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

44 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

Their pass rush is very good, especially when Chris Jones is on.  

He abused Morse and McGovern on plays

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I feel like we overthink it sometimes against this defense. Wish we would just run our stuff, and be more aggressive. Dictate as opposed to being reactionary. 

[Solomon Grundy]

43 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Agreed.  Felt like Spagnuolo had Brady figured out in the 2nd half.  

Bills stopped running the football. 

[y2zipper]

Makes me wonder what the home road split is for the offensive line. They've been relatively good this season, but this is the worst game that I've seen them play and I think they had some issues with communication and setting protection. Getting beat by 3 man rushes way too much today.

[MJS]

It seemed the offensive line was confused at times. Maybe Josh was confused too and not making the right protection calls. The Chiefs are no joke on defense this year.

[Simon]

6 minutes ago, y2zipper said:

Makes me wonder what the home road split is for the offensive line. They've been relatively good this season, but this is the worst game that I've seen them play and I think they had some issues with communication and setting protection. Getting beat by 3 man rushes way too much today.

 

It was extra bizarre because I thought they were playing some of their best ball of the season in the first qrtr.

Then about 5-10min into the 2nd qrtr it was like McGovern, Morse and Torrence were replaced by pod people. 🤷‍♂️

[Bimmer323i]

Looked like our guys were getting manhandled at times

[Utah John]

4 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

The Chiefs D has been coordinated by Steve Spagnuolo for the last 5 years.

 

I don't recall that their D under him has ever ranked very highly but they tend to play well in big games and he seems to scheme pressure better than most coordinators. I realize Chris Jones is an elite player but I think Spags does a great job creating pressure.

 

By contrast I was watching the Bills pass rush a bit today and though we sent extra rushers quite often, as has been the case most of the year it seemed like our pressures were too vanilla and easily blocked for the most part. By my untrained eye it seems like McDermott and Eric Washington need to use more stunts and play more games in the pass rush.

The Bills pass rush was extremely focused on not giving Mahomes lanes to escape the pocket downfield.  I've seen this in several games this year, and it's a very good thing against QBs who are good at running.  It also means the D line is working as a unit, and not having anyone freelance.  They're still getting their sacks (maybe not quite as many) and applying good pressure while not letting excellent runners like Mahomes hurt them, at least with his legs.  The flip side is that Mahomes ends up with a little more time to find receivers, but his receivers are worse than ours, except for Kelce.  This approach wouldn't work against Tyreek Hill AND Kelce, but that we don't have to worry about that anymore.

4 hours ago, MJS said:

It seemed the offensive line was confused at times. Maybe Josh was confused too and not making the right protection calls. The Chiefs are no joke on defense this year.

Here's hoping Spagnuolo gets a HC job next year, in the NFC.  He gives the Bills a tough time every time as the Chief's DC.

[Scott7975]

Both but also they had good coverage.  That team is very good getting away with mugging receivers and have sticky coverage.  I don't think Brady had a very good day either.  He should have had answers for that and didn't come up with any. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Scott7975

[GETTOTHE50]

Spags pressure packages are legit. He coordinated the giants defense against the patriots for their Super Bowl wins. If he can find ways through the patriots line of those years, then he can find ways against anyone. 

[nucci]

5 hours ago, Success said:

I'll kind of answer the 1st question - they DO have a great rush.

 

But we've faced other top tier lines, and Allen has had much more time.  He was harried all day today.  And when the line gave him a little time, it turns out they had to hold.

 

They were off today.  They've gotta do better than that if we're going to make a run.

 

we're also not very good at picking up blitzes or stunts

[SUNTANBILLS FAN]

For some reason we got away from using Cook. And stopped running.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

They definitely had the OL and Allen confused with who to block.

[ganesh]

6 hours ago, mannc said:

I think guys weren’t getting open and/or Josh didn’t like what he was seeing. He held on to the ball longer than he normally does.  I thought KC pass rush was good but not amazing.

They could have executed the shorter stuff better than having to either throw bombs or throw the dumb screen passes that everyone in the stadium knew was coming.

 

Allen and Cook combination could be really deadly and could really open up the rest of the offense with the fear of Cook taking it to the house. 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, Success said:

I'll kind of answer the 1st question - they DO have a great rush.

 

But we've faced other top tier lines, and Allen has had much more time.  He was harried all day today.  And when the line gave him a little time, it turns out they had to hold.

 

They were off today.  They've gotta do better than that if we're going to make a run.

 

 

Spags has always been kryptonite for our pass protection. It was said elsewhere, and it is true, that the Chiefs and Bills know each other about as well as divisional rivals at this point. But I go back to 2020, the empty stadium year, when olines held sway and ours was decent... except it got brutalised twice by the Chiefs (regular and post season). Spags is a master breaking down protection schemes and he seems to eat ours. Multiple OCs and OL coaches throughout that time too. 

 

The OL does have to play better to make a run, but for the most part this year it has played better. Not outstanding, but league average. If it can get to that the rest of the way we will be fine. 

[ProcessTruster]

Their pass rush was/is great.   Does that answer your question?   

 

When healthy, Chris Jones wrecks every oline he faces.  

 

Chris Jones was injured for the game last year , if memory serves.  

[Ya Digg?]

It doesn’t have to always be mutually exclusive, both things can happen. Their pass rush was great AND the line played terribly 

[vincec]

7 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

I’m not sure wtf our oline did here.  
 

Allen is absurd 

 

 

The way everyone broke through there almost made me think it was a screen. If not, then it’s ridiculous.

[newcam2012]

7 hours ago, Success said:

I'll kind of answer the 1st question - they DO have a great rush.

 

But we've faced other top tier lines, and Allen has had much more time.  He was harried all day today.  And when the line gave him a little time, it turns out they had to hold.

 

They were off today.  They've gotta do better than that if we're going to make a run.

 

It was definitely concerning. They will have to play better to beat the Cowboys. I'm interested to see what cover 22 shows. 

[BananaB]

Oline got worked 

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Both but also they had good coverage.  That team is very good getting away with mugging receivers and have sticky coverage.  I don't think Brady had a very good day either.  He should have had answers for that and didn't come up with any. 

I thought Brady's play calling in the first half was very good. Really innovative and new looking plays. That Cook TD was a great call. Cook running was also good. I thought they had a nice balance of running and passing. 

 

The second half was a completely different story. Not sure what happened but my eyes saw a Bills offense getting somewhat manhandled. Allen under constant duress, lack of balance, too many ineffective WR screens and short passes, no WR separation, etc ...

 

Allen played Superman and it was just enough to pull out a W. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by newcam2012

[Scott7975]

2 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I thought Brady's play calling in the first half was very good. Really innovative and new looking plays. That Cook TD was a great call. Cook running was also good. I thought they had a nice balance if running and passing. 

 

The second half was a completely different story. Not sure what happened but my eyes saw a Bills offense getting somewhat manhandled. Allen under constant duress, lack of balance, too many ineffective WR screens and short passes, no WR separation, etc ...

 

Allen played Superman and it was just enough to pull out a W. 

 

Yeah, I felt about the same.  I am not sure why they went away from Cook so much in the second half.  Dude was killing it on runs but even more so in the pass game.  Cook was like most of our offense. Our receivers didn't do jack ***** this game.  The short passes to Cook was killing them.  Then they just vanished.

[newcam2012]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yeah, I felt about the same.  I am not sure why they went away from Cook so much in the second half.  Dude was killing it on runs but even more so in the pass game.  Cook was like most of our offense. Our receivers didn't do jack ***** this game.  The short passes to Cook was killing them.  Then they just vanished.

I'm guessing that Chiefs made adjustments and took Cook out of the game sort of speak. Maybe I'm wrong here. I'm sure others can give a better explanation. 

 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

5 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I'm guessing that Chiefs made adjustments and took Cook out of the game sort of speak. Maybe I'm wrong here. I'm sure others can give a better explanation. 

 

 

In a kind of sorta way, I agree.

 

The adjustment I saw them make was to use more stunts up front, especially against Torrence/Brown. They have had some issues on that side quite a few times this year. 

 

So once they were able to get pressure, Buffalo had to replace Cook and play more Murray because Cook is absolutely useless in pass protection. Now with Cook out to not have that quick RB outlet to dump off to, Brady went into WR bubble screen mode to try and slow the rush...but Bolton and Co did a good job stuffing those.  Past that, I didn't see too many other adjustments from the Bills other that "Josh...LOOK OUT".