Torrence is the best news out of week one

[Shaw66]

I've read the camp reports for three days now, and the best news I've heard is that Torrence moved into the right guard slot of Day 2 and survived at least well enough to be there again on Day 3 (and Bates started getting more work behind Morse).  

 

It wasn't a surprise that McGovern immediately slotted in at left guard, and his arrival almost certainly means the Bills have upgraded the line there.  It's still early, but if Torrence already is showing that he's more capable than Bates on the right, it's really good news for the offensive line.  Two guys who can competently man either side of Morse can mean a big change for Josh in the pocket and for the running backs.   Morse does a good job, but he isn't the stoutest of centers, and having solid guys on either side allows the Bills to take advantage of his strengths rather than having his weakness exploited.

 

I still have my concerned about Spencer Brown, as do many people, but if right tackle is the biggest problem across the line, I can live with that.  Brown has the potential to be special, but If necessary, Doyle or Quessenbery or someone can be at least serviceable.  

[Rubes]

It's certainly encouraging, but I'd rather wait and see what happens when they get all the pads on and start knocking each other around.

 

[Allen2D̶i̶g̶g̶s̶TBD]

I think we brought enough talent at guard, but Tackle still concerns me.

 

Rousseau seemed to get by Spencer Brown easily in practice and I hope Brandon Shell is given an opportunity to win the RT job.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Rubes said:

It's certainly encouraging, but I'd rather wait and see what happens when they get all the pads on and start knocking each other around.

he

Of course, but like most good players coming out of college, they've already shown that they're good at knocking the other guy around.   The challenge for most of them is from the neck up.  I would guess that from watching film the Bills already know that Torrence is physically better than Bates.  The fact that Torrence is running with the 1s suggests that his head is in the right place.  

 

We'll see.  

[Warcodered]

It's hard for me to be to up on anything OL or DL related when they haven't put pads on yet.

[TheBeaneBandit]

8 minutes ago, Rubes said:

It's certainly encouraging, but I'd rather wait and see what happens when they get all the pads on and start knocking each other around.

 

That's when I actually expect him to take the job and leave everyone else well behind.

[Rubes]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

Of course, but like most good players coming out of college, they've already shown that they're good at knocking the other guy around.   The challenge for most of them is from the neck up.  I would guess that from watching film the Bills already know that Torrence is physically better than Bates.  The fact that Torrence is running with the 1s suggests that his head is in the right place.  

 

We'll see.  

 

Could be. I just think most of what we're seeing this first week is just moving people around to see how they mesh with others, how they understand and handle the calls and responsibilities, and to see how much of the system they are studying and integrating. It's nice to see that Torrence is fitting in well enough, but even OL who looked great in college and walkthroughs have crapped the bed once an NFL-caliber DL started knocking them around. Fingers crossed.

 

[TheBeaneBandit]

I thought it was one of the best moves in a long time that the bills just went and drafted a pure guard not these utility guys that could play all five spots but just barely adequately if even that.

[Augie]

53 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Of course, but like most good players coming out of college, they've already shown that they're good at knocking the other guy around.   The challenge for most of them is from the neck up.  I would guess that from watching film the Bills already know that Torrence is physically better than Bates.  The fact that Torrence is running with the 1s suggests that his head is in the right place.  

 

We'll see.  

 

I think the fact that he played an entire season last year without a single penalty tells us something impressive about him “from the neck up”.

 

That, and he gave up ZERO sacks in 46 college games. I would be best to temper my expectations, but this is pretty exciting. A long way to go, but things look good so far! 

 

.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Augie

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

31 minutes ago, Allen2Diggs said:

I think we brought enough talent at guard, but Tackle still concerns me.

 

Rousseau seemed to get by Spencer Brown easily in practice and I hope Brandon Shell is given an opportunity to win the RT job.

I don’t know enough about Shell, but the fact that he has a lot of starts under his belt is maybe promising. I think Brown is just way too raw to rely on. 

[Big Turk]

38 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I've read the camp reports for three days now, and the best news I've heard is that Torrence moved into the right guard slot of Day 2 and survived at least well enough to be there again on Day 3 (and Bates started getting more work behind Morse).  

 

It wasn't a surprise that McGovern immediately slotted in at left guard, and his arrival almost certainly means the Bills have upgraded the line there.  It's still early, but if Torrence already is showing that he's more capable than Bates on the right, it's really good news for the offensive line.  Two guys who can competently man either side of Morse can mean a big change for Josh in the pocket and for the running backs.   Morse does a good job, but he isn't the stoutest of centers, and having solid guys on either side allows the Bills to take advantage of his strengths rather than having his weakness exploited.

 

I still have my concerned about Spencer Brown, as do many people, but if right tackle is the biggest problem across the line, I can live with that.  Brown has the potential to be special, but If necessary, Doyle or Quessenbery or someone can be at least serviceable.  

 

In Computer Cowboy's rankings of the Online, the Bills are 26th in the NFL but this is almost entirely due to Brown...

 

Dawkins is a 91% and the rest of the line is pretty solidly graded and then Brown is at 8%. Basically he alone takes them from a top 10 ranked line according to his metrics to 26th.

 

That says a lot and none of it is good. Better hope most of his issues were back related last year and he has a clean bill of health this year.

[GunnerBill]

McGovern and Torrence winning the guard jobs is 100% my expectation. Because they are better players than Ryan Bates. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

I was big on Torrence even before the draft. Love what he brings to the table. I think the kid can be a good to great NFL guard.

 

I do wish he was lined up next to a solid RT. Hopefully Brown takes some step forward and becomes even average. I think he can. My biggest worry about Brown is that tall guys who end up with back issue sometimes tend to have it be a reoccurring issue.  

[NewEra]

49 minutes ago, Allen2Diggs said:

I think we brought enough talent at guard, but Tackle still concerns me.

 

Rousseau seemed to get by Spencer Brown easily in practice and I hope Brandon Shell is given an opportunity to win the RT job.

I’ve read Rousseau beat brown, but I’ve also read that brown has played very well and looks great.  🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

Other than Dorsey, I think Brown is the biggest key to our season

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I've read the camp reports for three days now, and the best news I've heard is that Torrence moved into the right guard slot of Day 2 and survived at least well enough to be there again on Day 3 (and Bates started getting more work behind Morse).  

 

It wasn't a surprise that McGovern immediately slotted in at left guard, and his arrival almost certainly means the Bills have upgraded the line there.  It's still early, but if Torrence already is showing that he's more capable than Bates on the right, it's really good news for the offensive line.  Two guys who can competently man either side of Morse can mean a big change for Josh in the pocket and for the running backs.   Morse does a good job, but he isn't the stoutest of centers, and having solid guys on either side allows the Bills to take advantage of his strengths rather than having his weakness exploited.

 

I still have my concerned about Spencer Brown, as do many people, but if right tackle is the biggest problem across the line, I can live with that.  Brown has the potential to be special, but If necessary, Doyle or Quessenbery or someone can be at least serviceable.  

I feel like Shell will be the one to takeover RT if needed.  Nice depth piece

Article on him last year-

https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/buffalo-bills-sign-brandon-shell-free-agency-scouting-report-miami-dolphins-mike-mcdaniel-matt-applebaum

[wppete]

The other great thing is we have Bates now that can play all positions and especially be the #1 back up at both Guard sports and Center. 

[Success]

We're good at guard, Morse & Dawkins are solid.  As just about everyone has stated - Brown is key to this line.

 

And the potential is there.  Really, if he can make a leap - we could have a top 10 or even top 5 line. What a difference that would be.

 

[MasterStrategist]

22 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I’ve read Rousseau beat brown, but I’ve also read that brown has played very well and looks great.  🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

Other than Dorsey, I think Brown is the biggest key to our season

100% agree.  Going into the offseason, this was my offensive focus to improve (in this order)

1. OL

2. Slot - finding a consistent "3rd" target for Josh

3. Redzone offense

4. Better playcalling/integrating all our weapons

 

To your last sentence, I'd put Kincaid's success near top of list (just in terms of potential impact it could have).  I think IOL and Spencer Brown were "tied" on my list, I just have faith he can take the next step, at least be a serviceable RT. We all knew Saffold and Bates, are what they are.  Bates is a great backup type/OK starter, his versatility is his best asset.

 

Picking up Shell was a good, break-glass move for this season.  He's the equivalent to Bates, IMO, in terms of starter level quality play (but at RT).  Otherwise, RT becomes 1st-2nd pick next year.

 

I like what Beane did at OL, even if it means we need to have some "faith/hope" that Brown develops his game.  Likewise at skill positions, we don't need Kincaid to be a game breaker but if he's a reliable 3rd option, that is perfect...it comes down to Dorsey finding ways to get mismatches week to week.

 

 

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

From what I read, Bates took the majority of the snaps at RG.  Torrence got some, but didn't read anything to indicate he in any way outplayed Bates.  Don't think Torrence looked bad either, but not sure II heard anything to indicate he'll be the starter either.  Think it's a good problem to have overall. 

 

I do think in 2024 Bates will be the starting center with Torrence and McGovern next to him.

[BigAl2526]

1 hour ago, Allen2Diggs said:

I think we brought enough talent at guard, but Tackle still concerns me.

 

Rousseau seemed to get by Spencer Brown easily in practice and I hope Brandon Shell is given an opportunity to win the RT job.

Rousseau had an inside move against Brown to gain a sack yesterday, but I read somewhere it wasn't all Brown's fault, and that generally Brown has shown improvement.  I'm not sure we've heard the end of the Spencer Brown story and the end might be better than most expect.  I don't know that for a fact, but am trying to keep an open mind.

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

I thought it was one of the best moves in a long time that the bills just went and drafted a pure guard not these utility guys that could play all five spots but just barely adequately if even that.

Agreed. And I really have a good feeling about this Kid.

[whorlnut]

1 hour ago, Rubes said:

It's certainly encouraging, but I'd rather wait and see what happens when they get all the pads on and start knocking each other around.

 

I honestly feel that is the least of anyones worries with Torrence. He should have no problem knocking anyone out plays and outleveraging them. He’s a high strength mauler that excels in those categories. 

[3rdand12]

59 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I’ve read Rousseau beat brown, but I’ve also read that brown has played very well and looks great.  🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

Other than Dorsey, I think Brown is the biggest key to our season

If thats all we need to worry about ?
I am okay with it.

 Dorsey has already shown growth in the formations he  has been practicing at camp.

Brown being good enough or better? I think we would then see the best line we may have had in years

[Shaw66]

45 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I feel like Shell will be the one to takeover RT if needed.  Nice depth piece

Article on him last year-

https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/buffalo-bills-sign-brandon-shell-free-agency-scouting-report-miami-dolphins-mike-mcdaniel-matt-applebaum

Thanks for the link.  Certainly has more and better experience than the guys held over from last season.  I didn't know anything about him. 

[Ayjent]

Torrence provided a huge upgrade at UF last yr and unlike many players at UF on the OL and DL that i think have been overvalued in drafts, Torrence was probably right on target with his 1st round grade.   I think if healthy he'll be a pretty solid player if not exceptional and i think that the right side of the OL for Allen is most important to the success of the offense.  If they hold their own this offense will be unstoppable.

[mjt328]

2 hours ago, Warcodered said:

It's hard for me to be to up on anything OL or DL related when they haven't put pads on yet.

 

This.

 

Some positions can flash in training camp.  But at this point, the linemen are just going through the motions with their hands and feet.  Until they put on pads and are playing at least somewhat physical, it's really hard to draw anything from their performance in practice.

 

[HappyDays]

On a similar note, this snippet from Matt Parrino's latest training camp report:

 

Quote

The pads likely come on this Sunday but McDermott had his players getting ramped up to take things to the next level. There were two great battles to highlight during offensive line vs. defensive line. Spencer Brown went up against Greg Rousseau and showed off his patience and technique to keep the tall and lengthy Rousseau at bay throughout the rep. Brown appears to be playing with a ton of confidence. I haven’t seen him give up a pressure through the first few days and that’s impressive considering he struggled at times in camp last year.

 

Spencer Brown taking even a moderate step forward along with improvements at both guard positions would immediately put this OL in the upper half of the league. I'm not expecting a suddenly top 5 unit, but with Allen at QB I'll accept top 15.

[CookieG]

Happy to see they are plugging Torrance in with the no. 1 Ol at times.  He might not start week one, but he's going to be starting come playoff time.  And he will be moving people.

 

Spencer Brown...I only saw one glimpse of him in TC...and call it premature, an overreaction, or whatever, but it made my heart drop.  It was on one of the highlight reels and it looked like a fumble drill.  He got down to the ground OK, but watching him get up looked like my 61 year old, bad backed self getting up.  It really didn't look good..especially for someone who is as good as an athlete as he is. 

 

I was actually encouraged to see that Tommy Doyle WAS NOT on the PUP to begin camp.  I haven't written him off.  Physically, he's got it and its why he was drafted.  And it was known that his technique needed work and it was known that he wasn't a day 1 starter.  But se had a full rookie year and a small part of last year to work on it.  If he's improved on his technique, it lessens my concerns about Spencer Brown.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, MasterStrategist said:

100% agree.  Going into the offseason, this was my offensive focus to improve (in this order)

1. OL

2. Slot - finding a consistent "3rd" target for Josh

3. Redzone offense

4. Better playcalling/integrating all our weapons

 

To your last sentence, I'd put Kincaid's success near top of list (just in terms of potential impact it could have).  I think IOL and Spencer Brown were "tied" on my list, I just have faith he can take the next step, at least be a serviceable RT. We all knew Saffold and Bates, are what they are.  Bates is a great backup type/OK starter, his versatility is his best asset.

 

Picking up Shell was a good, break-glass move for this season.  He's the equivalent to Bates, IMO, in terms of starter level quality play (but at RT).  Otherwise, RT becomes 1st-2nd pick next year.

 

I like what Beane did at OL, even if it means we need to have some "faith/hope" that Brown develops his game.  Likewise at skill positions, we don't need Kincaid to be a game breaker but if he's a reliable 3rd option, that is perfect...it comes down to Dorsey finding ways to get mismatches week to week.

 

 

 

 

👍🏻 to all of that. 
 

I have more confidence in Kincaid than 99.99% of the population.  I think his success will be close to a given.  He’s the 2nd option everyone was hoping for.  One that can be all pro.

[Mikie2times]

Good post OP. I’m curious why Brown declined so much last year. I understand he had some injury issues. Most here have basically written him off. But as I recall in his rookie year, he was the most physical lineman we had. Showed a mean streak and wanted to punish defenders. I had huge hopes for him.
 

If a big driver last year was health, parlay that with never having decent guard play next to him, another year of development. If the first two resolve themselves, he could be a guy that surprises a lot of people this year.

[sherpa]

I'll trust a poster named Shaw66 to comment on right guard play.

[billsfan89]

Getting Josh the best guard and tight end in the draft may pay dividends immediately 

[John from Riverside]

I’m waiting for the pads to come on, but I expect for Torrance to be just as good when that happens

[billsfan89]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I’m waiting for the pads to come on, but I expect for Torrance to be just as good when that happens

I loved him coming out of the draft, I think he can be an All Pro guard at some point in his career. Getting Josh some pieces in the draft that can impact the offense short and long term was crucial hopefully they accomplished that

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I mean, I would personally say that Kincaid is the best because of what it can do to the offense in terms of options.

 

But yeah, it's pretty darn good

[FLFan]

2 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

Rousseau had an inside move against Brown to gain a sack yesterday, but I read somewhere it wasn't all Brown's fault, and that generally Brown has shown improvement.  I'm not sure we've heard the end of the Spencer Brown story and the end might be better than most expect.  I don't know that for a fact, but am trying to keep an open mind.

Rousseau is a very good player.  He is going to win some reps.  We will see over time how Brown learns from it.  

[machine gun kelly]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I've read the camp reports for three days now, and the best news I've heard is that Torrence moved into the right guard slot of Day 2 and survived at least well enough to be there again on Day 3 (and Bates started getting more work behind Morse).  

 

It wasn't a surprise that McGovern immediately slotted in at left guard, and his arrival almost certainly means the Bills have upgraded the line there.  It's still early, but if Torrence already is showing that he's more capable than Bates on the right, it's really good news for the offensive line.  Two guys who can competently man either side of Morse can mean a big change for Josh in the pocket and for the running backs.   Morse does a good job, but he isn't the stoutest of centers, and having solid guys on either side allows the Bills to take advantage of his strengths rather than having his weakness exploited.

 

I still have my concerned about Spencer Brown, as do many people, but if right tackle is the biggest problem across the line, I can live with that.  Brown has the potential to be special, but If necessary, Doyle or Quessenbery or someone can be at least serviceable.  

Shaw thanks for starting this thread.  I agree McGovern and Mt. O ‘Cyrus will be upgrades.

 

I didn’t like Brown’s performance

lacking last year, but McD made the critical error of not resting him for a month or longer with that back and neck.  It lingers all off season of 2022, and in season.  A lineman has to have a healthy back and neck.  It took our previous Center’s career in Wood.

 

He didn’t have a senior year in college as they opted out in the COVID year, and before his first season they didn’t have much of anything.  He’s injured and multiple surgeries so this truly is his first off season of OTA’s, Minicamp, and now Preseason.  I want to believe that raw power that had him muscle through his rookie season should advance e this year.

 

If he sucks this year,  I’d support moving from him, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.  He could end up being someone in this league.  The other guys are just JAGs.

[PrimeTime101]

At this point, escaping each week injury free is going to be my biggest key moving forward. we have the starting goods...

 

[The Wiz]

Nothing against Torrance, but hearing that Kincaid has been running with 1st team exclusively is probably my favorite.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

4 hours ago, Allen2Diggs said:

I think we brought enough talent at guard, but Tackle still concerns me.

 

Rousseau seemed to get by Spencer Brown easily in practice and I hope Brandon Shell is given an opportunity to win the RT job.

Just wait, that Spencer Brown explosion is coming. 

 

It was that back injury last year, and DII football the year before that, and conversion to OT the year before that. 

 

I think the Bills are still smartly waiting for that Sammy Watkins explosion into a dominant NFL WR. 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck