No excuses for Ken Dorsey this year

[finn]

6 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Hold on Now. Josh Allen hurt his elbow Nov. 6 game to the Jets. It was the Miami Game earlier that season, We lost to Miami do to some interesting play calling when Ken Dorsey threw a fit and tossed his clipboard. There were play call issues going on with Dorsey well before the elbow injury

Dorsey threw a fit because McKenzie caught a pass with seconds left on like the 16-yard line, and, for reasons known only to him, elected to stay in bounds to end the game. This is after he dropped a lateral to mar an otherwise excellent Dorsey game against the Rams and before other drops and idiot moves on McKenzie's part.

 

Every coordinator deals with execution failures, but overcoming the loss of the short game due to Allen's injury, on top of the stunning incompetence of the slot receiver and two O-linemen, is asking a lot, especially for a first-year guy like Dorsey. 

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

9 minutes ago, finn said:

Dorsey threw a fit because McKenzie caught a pass with seconds left on like the 16-yard line, and, for reasons known only to him, elected to stay in bounds to end the game. This is after he dropped a lateral to mar an otherwise excellent Dorsey game against the Rams and before other drops and idiot moves on McKenzie's part.

 

Every coordinator deals with execution failures, but overcoming the loss of the short game due to Allen's injury, on top of the stunning incompetence of the slot receiver and two O-linemen, is asking a lot, especially for a first-year guy like Dorsey. 

I agree with all of this, it was the redzone calls and going for it so often on fourth downs and failing. so on. 500 yards you better have 33 points on the board or better. It was a lacks of execution with players and OC. Just how I felt about that, at the time.  

 

cheers

[Mat68]

Dorsey didnt have a Jacksonville or Indianapolis games from 21 that Daboll had.  Daboll had some massive stinkers.  The offense started scorched earth.  Allens injury negatively effected the offense efficiency.  The offense isnt bad.  I think the moves made this offseason were to make the offense more efficient.  I think the offense would have to regress a pretty good amount to warrant an offensive Co change.  

[billsfan89]

The offense in general is a lot better equipped to win against better defenses. Diggs and Allen are still there and I think it's reasonable to expect Diggs to still be a quality WR1. But the offensive line is massively improved, both guard positions are better and the depth with Bates moving to the bench and the addition of Edwards and the resigning of Queese is much better (although I would like to see a swing tackle added). Kincaid also adds an additional passing dimension. On top of that Hines will be here the whole season and can add something to the offense. The supplemental WR/RB's are also still a solid bunch. 

 

Gabe Davis's development as a WR2 and Spencer Brown's ability to develop at RT are going to be big factors but even if both don't go great Dorsey should still be in a better positon to open up his playbook and get this offense going come post season time and be more consistent in the regular season. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

47 minutes ago, finn said:

Dorsey threw a fit because McKenzie caught a pass with seconds left on like the 16-yard line, and, for reasons known only to him, elected to stay in bounds to end the game. This is after he dropped a lateral to mar an otherwise excellent Dorsey game against the Rams and before other drops and idiot moves on McKenzie's part.

 

Every coordinator deals with execution failures, but overcoming the loss of the short game due to Allen's injury, on top of the stunning incompetence of the slot receiver and two O-linemen, is asking a lot, especially for a first-year guy like Dorsey. 

 

 

16 yard line!?!

 

I think you are off by about 30 yards. We only needed a FG to win. From what I recall it would have been about 60 or 62 yard attempt had McKenzie caught the ball and headed straight for the sideline rather than turning up field. 

20 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Dorsey didnt have a Jacksonville or Indianapolis games from 21 that Daboll had.  Daboll had some massive stinkers.  The offense started scorched earth.  Allens injury negatively effected the offense efficiency.  The offense isnt bad.  I think the moves made this offseason were to make the offense more efficient.  I think the offense would have to regress a pretty good amount to warrant an offensive Co change.  

Excellent post. Those Colts and Jags games in 2021 as well as the 3 point first half against the Dolphins on Halloween are for some reason forgotten. 
 

I know the offense went scorched earth in the playoffs but they had their hiccups just like the regular season. 
 

And the Bills should have put up 40+ against the Dolphins in the WC this year but turnovers and drops killed them. Things out of Dorsey’s control. 

[jethro_tull]

was our current TE getting open consistently?  it did not look that way to me....

[Sierra Foothills]

11 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

My opinion has been that Dorsey gets too much blame. The players deserve a big share. The Bills saw a dramatic uptick in turnovers this year, especially fumbles, 13 this past year whereas we only had 6 in 2021. Turnovers are on the players, especially fumbles. 

 

The very next week, the Baltimore game was a good example. I think the Bills had three first half turnovers. Baltimore turns two of them into TD's and the Bills are in a 17-0 hole. Second half comes, players stop turning the ball over and the offense all of a sudden looks good. 

 

The Miami playoff game was another good example. The offense was lighting it up. Very easily would have scored over 40 points if it wasn't for the turnovers and Knox drop in the end zone. But the take-a-away from that game is that the Bills offense struggled because they had three turnovers on the day and it was a 3- point margin at the end. But that really doesn't paint an accurate picture of the game that Dorsey called. 

 

 

 

Funny conversation. It's really not easy apportioning blame.

 

The one area I look at as a function of coaching is Josh's turnovers and also his reluctance to throw underneath.

 

I'm not gonna dig up numbers but I believe that Josh's turnovers and particularly red zone turnovers took a big jump last year. It seems like Josh hadn't even thrown a red zone interception until sometime in his 4th year.

 

To me this raises the question as to whether Daboll was much more demanding and disciplined with Josh than Dorsey was... that he had Josh on a shorter leash than Dorsey.

 

We'll never know of course but I certainly think it's possible.

 

[Eastport bills]

Dorsey and Kromer have no excuses. The O-Line has been the weak link and the biggest threat to our QBs survival. Dorsey’s reluctance to get out of the Spencer Brown project is disturbing. Our entire O -line got bum rushed by that Cinn front last season. If Kromer can’t get Brown to improve, it doesn’t matter how big or athletic he is. He statistically regressed last season and now we can’t live with another year of ineptitude.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

16 hours ago, Mat68 said:

Dorsey didnt have a Jacksonville or Indianapolis games from 21 that Daboll had.  Daboll had some massive stinkers.  The offense started scorched earth.  Allens injury negatively effected the offense efficiency.  The offense isnt bad.  I think the moves made this offseason were to make the offense more efficient.  I think the offense would have to regress a pretty good amount to warrant an offensive Co change.  

 

Just need to clean up the massive amount of turnovers - without turning into the end season offense where we seemed to be a bit too tentative. 

[Einstein's Dog]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:42 PM, Logic said:

If Dorsey can't scheme up a consistently effective offense that consistently makes use of guys like Cook, Knox, and Kincaid, he should be shown the door at the end of the year, in my opinion. There will be no shortage of brilliant offensive minds champing at the bit to work with Josh Allen and co if Dorsey can't cut it. 

I think Dorsey (along with Kromer) are key to how dominating the Bills can be in 2023.  I would like to see Kincaid used right from the start.  I would also like to see the RBs used as swing pass outlets, and incorporated more often.

 

But the execution and plays have to work.  This idea that if somehow the options above do not work, but something else does, then Dorsey should be fired is ridiculous.  Last year we hoped, and tried to incorporate the short outlet swing pass to speedy RB/WRs - drafted Cook, traded for Hines.  And yet the short swing pass was off most of the year for a variety of reasons -from McK drops, to Cook/Shakir missed routes, to Singletary not expecting the ball, and also the touch from Josh being off on several - too floated at times and too hot on others.  When Dorsey was faced with the choice of the 60% chance of the 20 yard laser vs the 65% chance of the 4 yard swing pass, opting for the broken down scrambled 20 yarder was logical.

 

So no, if Dorsey can't get consistent effective offense out of Cook/Knox/Kincaid it does not mean he gets shown the door.  Not if Diggs/Davis and Harris are tearing up the league, producing a top 3 offense.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Theme so far this offseason from Josh Allen is he’s focused on football.

 

Im wondering if all the hype last offseason was a distraction. Plus obviously some personal distractions.

 

We’re so focused on the surroundings of Josh Allen that we are ignoring the fact he wasn’t 100% locked in last year.

[BBFL]

17 hours ago, Mat68 said:

Dorsey didnt have a Jacksonville or Indianapolis games from 21 that Daboll had.  Daboll had some massive stinkers.  The offense started scorched earth.  Allens injury negatively effected the offense efficiency.  The offense isnt bad.  I think the moves made this offseason were to make the offense more efficient.  I think the offense would have to regress a pretty good amount to warrant an offensive Co change.  

Actually just watched that Jacksonville game the other day… Massive stinker is absolutely correct but that wasn’t on Daboll. All Allen. On both teams. Josh had so many better open throws underneath or the checkdown and decided to pass them up for the bigger play; When he did hit the open guy for a shorter pass attempt it was more often than not Singletary or Beasley who had someone right on his hip or no ability to turn upfield. Big play attempts I’ve noticed are an absolute must and a tendency of this offensive style in closer games… Put pressure on the other team to have to match the Bills production just as quickly.
 

Then the other side of things is the Jags Josh Allen. Dude was a game wrecker all day long. Massive props have to go there too. 
 

Overall in terms of playcalling Daboll had an ability to adjust the game plan and reel Josh back in when he was getting away from the game, more often than not. Dorsey? Yet to see that. And the meltdown against Cinci in the P/O’s, in my opinion, is indicative of a guy who needs to learn that sometimes things have to go out of the window. I don’t think Dorsey is bad by any standards but I believe that Josh elevates A LOT around him. 

17 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

The offense in general is a lot better equipped to win against better defenses. Diggs and Allen are still there and I think it's reasonable to expect Diggs to still be a quality WR1. But the offensive line is massively improved, both guard positions are better and the depth with Bates moving to the bench and the addition of Edwards and the resigning of Queese is much better (although I would like to see a swing tackle added). Kincaid also adds an additional passing dimension. On top of that Hines will be here the whole season and can add something to the offense. The supplemental WR/RB's are also still a solid bunch. 

 

Gabe Davis's development as a WR2 and Spencer Brown's ability to develop at RT are going to be big factors but even if both don't go great Dorsey should still be in a better positon to open up his playbook and get this offense going come post season time and be more consistent in the regular season. 

Guess we will see. We can only hope as there are several, going by last year and their additions this off-season, decent defenses we see throughout the schedule this year. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by BBFL

[BBFL]

@billsfan89
 

Denver (absolutely overlooked), NYJ, Dallas and Philly are tough outings. Throw in the Fish who have improved. Chargers, Chiefs and Giants who all fielded respectable defenses for the year; if not significant portions. Which leaves Tampa, Raiders, Jags and Washington. Not all bad by any standard. Plus old Billy boy who had his own play very well at times. 
 

Going to be a tough year. Hopefully the statement is “better equipped” period. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by BBFL

[NewEra]

18 hours ago, Mat68 said:

Dorsey didnt have a Jacksonville or Indianapolis games from 21 that Daboll had.  Daboll had some massive stinkers.  The offense started scorched earth.  Allens injury negatively effected the offense efficiency.  The offense isnt bad.  I think the moves made this offseason were to make the offense more efficient.  I think the offense would have to regress a pretty good amount to warrant an offensive Co change.  

Maybe you missed the last game of the year?  Healthy offense.  Monstrosity of a stinker game. 

[Livinginthepast]

One thing I liked about Daboll was his schemes and his fearlessness of throwing in a gadget play. Dorsey unfortunately went backwards last season and his vanilla offense became too predictable for defenses.  We need a return to sophisticated play calling and generous wrinkles thrown in to confuse these defenses.

[DJB]

Dorsey I think schemes decently well to our strengths but what he severely lacks is the ability to hide or scheme around our weaknesses. 
 

Both tackles are terrible and we need to get the ball out much quicker. More slants, etc otherwise Allen is going to get killed.

 

I love the deep ball and Allen making plays but we know that is not sustainable for entire season. 
 

Unless Dorsey changes I’ll continue to beat the drum he needs to be fired 

Edited August 21, 2023 by DJB

[CincyBillsFan]

Do people think that Dorsey game planed for Pittsburgh other then to tell Allen not to run and bail if he feels pressure?  The LAST thing Dorsey wanted to do yesterday was to tip the Jets off to anything he was going to do in week 1.  Why don't we wait and see how the first 4 games go before deciding where Dorsey stands.

 

 

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

17 minutes ago, DJB said:

Dorsey I think schemes decently well to our strengths but what he severely lacks is the ability to hide or scheme around our weaknesses. 
 

Both tackles are terrible and we need to get the ball out much quicker. More slants, etc otherwise Allen is going to get killed.

 

I love the deep ball and Allen making plays but we know that is not sustainable for entire season. 
 

Unless Dorsey changes I’ll continue to beat the drum he needs to be fired 

Dorsey's fate will be decided this season. With Shell and Doyle out we're already in trouble on the OL.  Dawkins looks slow & fat. All I know is as several posters have already stated,  this lack of offensive identity is not sustainable for Josh and his weapons. 

[JoPoy88]

28 minutes ago, DJB said:

Dorsey I think schemes decently well to our strengths but what he severely lacks is the ability to hide or scheme around our weaknesses. 
 

Both tackles are terrible and we need to get the ball out much quicker. More slants, etc otherwise Allen is going to get killed.

 

I love the deep ball and Allen making plays but we know that is not sustainable for entire season. 
 

Unless Dorsey changes I’ll continue to beat the drum he needs to be fired 

Jesus. There are no “schemes” in preseason. If you are bumping this stale thread to bang your drum at least understand what’s going on.

[Boatdrinks]

Dorsey needs to improve his use of tendency breakers and come up with better concepts in the redzone. Josh had to run around and create something from nothing far too often. This resulted in a turnover problem where there hadn’t been one. No excuses for sure , but we won’t have any idea from preseason football. Maybe somewhere around week 5 or so. 

[DJB]

11 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

Jesus. There are no “schemes” in preseason. If you are bumping this stale thread to bang your drum at least understand what’s going on.

There most definitely are offensive schemes even in pre season lol

Edited August 21, 2023 by DJB

[Don Otreply]

37 minutes ago, DJB said:

There make definitely are offensive schemes even in pre season lol

“There make definitely are” 

 

now that’s some advanced sentence structure right there…, 

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

“There make definitely are” 

 

now that’s some advanced sentence structure right there…, 

 

I sometimes morning drink too. 

[Lost]

9 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

“There make definitely are” 

 

now that’s some advanced sentence structure right there…, 

 

[Mister Defense]

10 hours ago, DJB said:

Dorsey I think schemes decently well to our strengths but what he severely lacks is the ability to hide or scheme around our weaknesses. 
 

Both tackles are terrible and we need to get the ball out much quicker. More slants, etc otherwise Allen is going to get killed.

 

I love the deep ball and Allen making plays but we know that is not sustainable for entire season. 
 

Unless Dorsey changes I’ll continue to beat the drum he needs to be fired 

 

While I would not be concerned if he was fired now, I may wait a few games into the season to see how actual games play out.

 

That offense looked unprepared at almost every level, and the buck stops with the coach. Period.

 

 

[Mister Defense]

10 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Do people think that Dorsey game planed for Pittsburgh other then to tell Allen not to run and bail if he feels pressure?  The LAST thing Dorsey wanted to do yesterday was to tip the Jets off to anything he was going to do in week 1.  Why don't we wait and see how the first 4 games go before deciding where Dorsey stands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I agree with waiting to see how the regular season games go, at least a few games.

 

But this embarrassing  performance wasn't about game planning, per se, or not tipping off the Jets to what was coming, as that is the case with every team in almost every pre-season game.

 

This game showed an offense that was incompetent in almost every phase of the game, with an incredible number of penalties, many of them pre-snap penalties. The offense looked lost.

 

To me, this was as bad as a good Bills team has ever looked this close to the season opener. 

 

Unacceptable for a team loaded with talent. 

 

Undisciplined, unprepared.  And the offensive coordinator is held accountable when that is the case.

 

It seems that in last year's fast start that Daboll's coaching was still entrenched enough to keep them going at a high level, but as the season progressed we saw that diminish and Ken Dorsey's coaching take over.  This year, it is Dorsey's show, and so far not so good.

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Mister Defense

[Bangarang]

27 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

 

Well, I agree with waiting to see how the regular season games go, at least a few games.

 

But this embarrassing  performance wasn't about game planning, per se, or not tipping off the Jets to what was coming, as that is the case with every team in almost every pre-season game.

 

This game showed an offense that was incompetent in almost every phase of the game, with an incredible number of penalties, many of them pre-snap penalties. The offense looked lost.

 

To me, this was as bad as a good Bills team has ever looked this close to the season opener. 

 

Unacceptable for a team loaded with talent. 

 

Undisciplined, unprepared.  And the offensive coordinator is held accountable when that is the case.

 

It seems that in last year's fast start that Daboll's coaching was still entrenched enough to keep them going at a high level, but as the season progressed we saw that diminish and Ken Dorsey's coaching take over.  This year, it is Dorsey's show, and so far not so good.

 

 

 

So basically what you’re saying is Dorsey gets no credit when things are going well but all the blame when they aren’t? At least you have a reasonable perspective. 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Bangarang

[Goin Breakdown]

3 hours ago, DJB said:

There make definitely are offensive schemes even in pre season lol

Most*. I'm pretty sure it was a typo

[DJB]

50 minutes ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Most*. I'm pretty sure it was a typo

Autocorrect strikes again! Lol

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Mister Defense said:

 

While I would not be concerned if he was fired now, I may wait a few games into the season to see how actual games play out.

 

That offense looked unprepared at almost every level, and the buck stops with the coach. Period.

 

 

 

Realistically they can't fire anyone until after the season.  Let's see how it plays out.  I'm not ready to throw Dorsey to the curb unless the play-calling is problematic, one preseason game with the first unit playing fairly "vanilla" as it's called, isn't the best barometer.   Also, it seemed as if Pittsburgh thought it was the Super Bowl.  

 

If we get our a$$e$ kicked by the Jets because of zero innovation or creativity in play-calling, let the discussion begin.  

 

Some of this is on Allen too, he's the anti-Brady in that way.  There are far too many plays where entirely ignores checkdown options on screens or on short outs where his guys are wide f'n open, he sees them, but continues to look downfield for the bigger play.  That's on him.  It's a fair guess that that's one of the things that he's focused on correcting this season.   Josh is a very bright guy!  

 

Where Dorsey's fate may hinge, is in games where our RBs are chewing up yardage like college athletes at a buffet, and we abandon the run and start throwing with less than optimal results.  Stuff like that, which would be indicative that he's got a lot to learn, and given his experience he should have a lot to learn in that way, particularly as a historically accomplished college QB.  

 

 

[Fleezoid]

I was hopefully for Dorsey early on, but now my concern factor is elevating. His play designs and the offense looking very unprepared are the 2 things that stick out to me.

 

There was one particular play in the 1st series where Allen hands off to Cook to his left. He had to take 2 to 3 steps to get the ball to him. What the heck is that? Allen was in the shotgun, but it didn't look like a draw. Why are you taking an extra second or 2 to hand the ball off. It just gives the defense that much more time to get penetration. 

 

The regular seasons games are the real barometer, but the doubts are creeping in.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Fleezoid

[Warriorspikes51]

As good as Allen is, if your QB is under attack because the OT's are turn styles..... only so much the OC can do 

[Billever76]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:42 PM, Logic said:

Like many here, I like Dalton Kincaid the player quite a bit.

The only hesitance I have in drafting him is that I was constantly yelling at my screen last year because Dorsey wasn't effectively scheming the athletic, mismatch tight end we ALREADY have on our roster and pay big money to. I'm dubious that a guy who couldn't find a way to effectively use one tight end will suddenly know how to effectively use two. For a first round tight end who figures to be second on the depth chart to be a worthwhile use of draft capital, he needs to actually be utilized with effectiveness and frequency.

Moreover, I was and am concerned about what I perceive to be Dorsey's failure to use the offensive weapons on the Bills roster in the way that best suits their traits. We drafted James Cook and traded for Nyheim Hines largely because both are receiving threats and mismatches against linebackers -- then completely failed to deploy them in that fashion. Gabe Davis did a lot of damage his first two years from the slot, matching up against small nickel corners, safeties, and linebackers. Dorsey rarely used him as such last year. As already mentioned, Dawson Knox is an athletic mismatch in the passing game in his own right, Dorsey failed to use him as much more than a last resort outlet receiver. Now add Kincaid to the pile of guys that require a specific type of usage to be most effective.

Going into 2023, with a formidable duo of tight ends, two speedy receiving backs, a top five WR, a big-bodied WR with excellent career touchdown production, and even new, speedy additions in Harty and Sherfield -- not to mention whoever the Bills add throughout the rest of draft weekend -- there will no longer be any excuses or training wheels for Ken Dorsey, in my opinion. "Not enough weapons" will no longer be a viable excuse.

If Dorsey can't scheme up a consistently effective offense that consistently makes use of guys like Cook, Knox, and Kincaid, he should be shown the door at the end of the year, in my opinion. There will be no shortage of brilliant offensive minds champing at the bit to work with Josh Allen and co if Dorsey can't cut it. 

When does the HC excuses run out?..I mean McDermott put Dorsey in the position he is in?

[Logic]

3 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

When does the HC excuses run out?..I mean McDermott put Dorsey in the position he is in?

When he stops having 11+ win seasons and making the playoffs every single year?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

When he stops having 11+ win seasons and making the playoffs every single year?

This is me wondering if half these people were fans during the drought

 

[Goin Breakdown]

49 minutes ago, DJB said:

Autocorrect strikes again! Lol

Auto incorrect

[Mr. WEO]

 

[Chaos]

46 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

This is me wondering if half these people were fans during the drought

 

if you think McDemott is getting the best possible success out of Josh Allen’s career he is above criticism. If. If you think McDermott is falling short , feel free to criticize.   Broncos gave nine years to Reeves with Elway. never got there. Mike shanahan got there in two years with Elway. 
 

Not really sure why the benchmark is being better than one of worst ever streak of coaching in NFL history.  

[HOUSE]

Ken Dorsey will be the head coach in Cleveland next year where he will receive at least 3 more chances.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

19 minutes ago, Chaos said:

if you think McDemott is getting the best possible success out of Josh Allen’s career he is above criticism. If. If you think McDermott is falling short , feel free to criticize.   Broncos gave nine years to Reeves with Elway. never got there. Mike shanahan got there in two years with Elway. 
 

Not really sure why the benchmark is being better than one of worst ever streak of coaching in NFL history.  

 

it's not just that, guy.

 

it's the fact that he's the winningest coach in Bills history.

 

Better win % than Marv Levy, who had a LOT more talent on that team.