No excuses for Ken Dorsey this year

[Chaos]

2 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

it's not just that, guy.

 

it's the fact that he's the winningest coach in Bills history.

 

Better win % than Marv Levy, who had a LOT more talent on that team.

 

Levy won four AFC championships. Sean can’t carry his proverbial jock strap yet. 

[Billever76]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

When he stops having 11+ win seasons and making the playoffs every single year?

Ummm that's Josh Allen being superhuman and covering the inadequacy of our HC 

2 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

it's not just that, guy.

 

it's the fact that he's the winningest coach in Bills history.

 

Better win % than Marv Levy, who had a LOT more talent on that team.

 

Again stop crediting McDermott for our generational quarterbacks superhuman play

[Mister Defense]

23 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Realistically they can't fire anyone until after the season.  Let's see how it plays out.  I'm not ready to throw Dorsey to the curb unless the play-calling is problematic, one preseason game with the first unit playing fairly "vanilla" as it's called, isn't the best barometer.   Also, it seemed as if Pittsburgh thought it was the Super Bowl.  

 

If we get our a$$e$ kicked by the Jets because of zero innovation or creativity in play-calling, let the discussion begin.  

 

Some of this is on Allen too, he's the anti-Brady in that way.  There are far too many plays where entirely ignores checkdown options on screens or on short outs where his guys are wide f'n open, he sees them, but continues to look downfield for the bigger play.  That's on him.  It's a fair guess that that's one of the things that he's focused on correcting this season.   Josh is a very bright guy!  

 

Where Dorsey's fate may hinge, is in games where our RBs are chewing up yardage like college athletes at a buffet, and we abandon the run and start throwing with less than optimal results.  Stuff like that, which would be indicative that he's got a lot to learn, and given his experience he should have a lot to learn in that way, particularly as a historically accomplished college QB.  

 

 

 

 

Good points, and I really hope that Dorsey changes from last year and has a great year.  If not, it will be a wasted, frustrating year for the Bills.

 

But I really disagree with what you say about Josh Allen overall.  Yes, I agree he did do that last year, took too many chances, reverted to some of the things we saw in his first year or so.

 

However, to me he was put in a position where he felt that was the only way to go.  There was almost no rhyme or reason to the use of the running game, the reliable short passing game--eliminated by Dorsey, and the play action disappeared.

 

These  obvious problems made Allen a sitting duck and he was both constantly running for his life (why respect the short passing game or running game that were non existent?) and forced the Bills into an extremely one dimensional, all of Allen's shoulders, offensive team. 

 

Allen was trying to overcome a glaringly one dimensional, un-creative offense and was doing anything he can to overcome the awful coaching decisions.

 

 

[PBF81]

15 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

Good points, and I really hope that Dorsey changes from last year and has a great year.  If not, it will be a wasted, frustrating year for the Bills.

 

But I really disagree with what you say about Josh Allen overall.  Yes, I agree he did do that last year, took too many chances, reverted to some of the things we saw in his first year or so.

 

However, to me he was put in a position where he felt that was the only way to go.  There was almost no rhyme or reason to the use of the running game, the reliable short passing game--eliminated by Dorsey, and the play action disappeared.

 

These  obvious problems made Allen a sitting duck and he was both constantly running for his life (why respect the short passing game or running game that were non existent?) and forced the Bills into an extremely one dimensional, all of Allen's shoulders, offensive team. 

 

Allen was trying to overcome a glaringly one dimensional, un-creative offense and was doing anything he can to overcome the awful coaching decisions.

 

Thanks

 

Yeah, I realize that's the narrative, but I specifically looked last season and there were numerous times/game where he drops back, there's a player, sometimes even two, wide open short on the outsides, occasionally over the middle, he either doesn't see it (difficult to imagine) or ignores them, and either goes deeper or scrambles trying to find a deeper guy.  I'm also referring to routine 1st and 2nd down plays, not 3rd-and-long plays, which is understandable.  

 

I'm actually going to make a running video reel this season of those plays to illustrate it.  But we can go to pretty much any game and find them.  The only question is why does that happen.  But that's where Brady made his living, going through his progressions rapidly, and regularly hitting those guys in the flats/out for say an 8-yard gain and moving the chains and consuming precious time, keeping the D off the field.  It's fine to score a TD in 2:30, but if you can score one in 6:50, as long as the clock isn't an issue, why not do that.  

 

Brady buttered his bread so to speak by doing that.  Sure, he could throw deep and take advantage of Moss, but he knew the importance of consistency in moving the ball.  I'm not sure that Allen's got that down yet and there are tremendous questions as to whether Dorsey does or not.  

 

One of the things that bothers me about Dorsey, and this is pure speculation, but IMO he's trying to live vicariously through Allen, even if only subconsciously, trying to relive his collegiate glory years from the coaching perspective, which if true would explain a lot, but is also obviously problematic.  This isn't FFL, it's real games.  

 

From a play-calling angle, sometimes it's problematic when every receiver is 10+ yards downfield.  

 

 

[theRalph]

This take is somewhat ill-informed. I've heard it said that Dorsey is a genius at 12-personnel. He played in 12 at the U and he coached the QBs at the Panthers in 12 also. He tried to implement a 12-scheme last season—recall they signed OJ Howard. Alas, Howard got hurt in Tampa. Then the Bucs brought in Brady and OJ never meshed and ended up a ruined prospect. The Bills had some hope but cut him at the end of camp. Dorsey never had a reliable slot last season. Lil Dirty was inconsistent. Crowder was good but broke his ankle early in the season. They even brought Cole back at the end. Dorsey also had a complete disaster at LG and an inexperienced RT with no off-season. And finally, he did not have a running back with any size (other than 17).

 

But set all that aside. You can bet Dorsey had a big say in the roster changes. And it looks like he's going have a real 12-personnel offense.

[Mister Defense]

4 minutes ago, theRalph said:

This take is somewhat ill-informed. I've heard it said that Dorsey is a genius at 12-personnel. He played in 12 at the U and he coached the QBs at the Panthers in 12 also. He tried to implement a 12-scheme last season—recall they signed OJ Howard. Alas, Howard got hurt in Tampa. Then the Bucs brought in Brady and OJ never meshed and ended up a ruined prospect. The Bills had some hope but cut him at the end of camp. Dorsey never had a reliable slot last season. Lil Dirty was inconsistent. Crowder was good but broke his ankle early in the season. They even brought Cole back at the end. Dorsey also had a complete disaster at LG and an inexperienced RT with no off-season. And finally, he did not have a running back with any size (other than 17).

 

But set all that aside. You can bet Dorsey had a big say in the roster changes. And it looks like he's going have a real 12-personnel offense.

 

I hope you are right--we will see very early in the season and as it progresses if there are big changes this year.

 

What you don't mention is the running game, don't put the misuse of that into perspective.  The backs averaged @ 5 yards a carry last year, and Dorsey simply did not use that fact to the team's advantage.  As Gregg Cosell said several times: "There was no sychronicity between the Bills passing and running games."  Very significant criticism for an NFL offense and its coordinator, and I agree with it.

 

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

I hope you are right--we will see very early in the season and as it progresses if there are big changes this year.

 

What you don't mention is the running game, don't put the misuse of that into perspective.  The backs averaged @ 5 yards a carry last year, and Dorsey simply did not use that fact to the team's advantage.  As Gregg Cosell said several times: "There was no sychronicity between the Bills passing and running games."  Very significant criticism for an NFL offense and its coordinator, and I agree with it.

 

Dorsey and Daboll as well, to a lesser extent, always had a sense of running the ball because they “had to.” Honestly, not way off base imo because the ball in Josh’s hands is the best way to go, but I don’t think Dorsey is great at misdirection or setting up different formations for running and passing. I think he telegraphs it a little bit.

[Logic]

19 hours ago, Billever76 said:

Ummm that's Josh Allen being superhuman and covering the inadequacy of our HC 

Sean McDermott's career record: 66–40 (.623)

There are only 21 coaches in the Super Bowl era with at least a .600 win percentage in at least 80 games in the regular season. Just 21 coaches! Ever!

Quantify it however you want. Sean McDermott is a very good head coach. I get that you want the Bills to win a Super Bowl. So do I. The failure to do so thus far does not mean he's "inadequate". You're free to have that opinion, of course, just as I am free to point out that history and common sense and eyeballs all indicate that you're wrong.

 

[Mister Defense]

26 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Dorsey and Daboll as well, to a lesser extent, always had a sense of running the ball because they “had to.” Honestly, not way off base imo because the ball in Josh’s hands is the best way to go, but I don’t think Dorsey is great at misdirection or setting up different formations for running and passing. I think he telegraphs it a little bit.

 

Without a valid, reliable running game there is no way the Bills win a Super Bowl.  The best defenses, the ones they will play in the playoffs, and during the year, will be licking their chops, knowing that they only have one main target, making their job soo much easier.  See: Bengals in the playoffs last year.

[BillStime]

Anyone concerned about a coaching deficit on this team?

 

Then title of this thread alone concerns the heck out me... and outside of McDermott - who is left?

 

I've always thought we lose the close ones because of coaching... and I'm concerned this will only get worse.

 

 

 

 

[Eastport bills]

Ken Dorsey is the biggest question mark for the Bills. He inherited a great offense that Dabol constructed and managed to make it predictable and one dimensional. He has to come out of the gate with creativity and be mindful that running the ball will make Josh’s life easier. He also has to work in concert with our O-line coach to make sure Josh is protected at all costs. If an adequate RT is not on the team, impose your will on Beane to bring in a better option, I don’t want to see an overwhelmed young OC throwing tables around if the offense is sputtering like last year in Miami. This year he must be the cool hand in the middle of the madness.

[Dopey]

20 hours ago, Billever76 said:

Ummm that's Josh Allen being superhuman and covering the inadequacy of our HC 

Again stop crediting McDermott for our generational quarterbacks superhuman play

This Josh is superhuman stuff is so crazy. He’s part of the reason we haven’t made it to a sb yet with this regime. Where was that superhuman play vs the Bengals?

He is human, not super. 

[Pabstblueribbon]

27 minutes ago, theRalph said:

This take is somewhat ill-informed. I've heard it said that Dorsey is a genius at 12-personnel. He played in 12 at the U and he coached the QBs at the Panthers in 12 also. He tried to implement a 12-scheme last season—recall they signed OJ Howard. Alas, Howard got hurt in Tampa. Then the Bucs brought in Brady and OJ never meshed and ended up a ruined prospect. The Bills had some hope but cut him at the end of camp. Dorsey never had a reliable slot last season. Lil Dirty was inconsistent. Crowder was good but broke his ankle early in the season. They even brought Cole back at the end. Dorsey also had a complete disaster at LG and an inexperienced RT with no off-season. And finally, he did not have a running back with any size (other than 17).

 

But set all that aside. You can bet Dorsey had a big say in the roster changes. And it looks like he's going have a real 12-personnel offense.

Kincade has deservedly gotten the hype but I'm pretty interested to see what kind of a role Knox plays this season. 

 

There's so much diversity at the skill positions it shouldn't be a chore to achieve and exploit favorable matchups. I wonder if the perceived disregard for the Tackle position is contingent on utilizing knox more on the line to help block/leak out as a pass catcher now that Kincaid has landed?

 

The recipe of doubling diggs and putting cb1 on gabe to wreck our passing game needs to be handily dealt with by KD this year, assuming his horses can stay healthy. 

 

[Einstein's Dog]

First, I'll say I don't think Dorsey needed any excuses from last year.  Our top goal in hiring Dorsey was continuity and he delivered.  Top 5 in yards and points.  If you scrutinize him you can certainly find faults - but you can for all the OCs.

 

This year goal number 1 is to use D Kincaid.   Use Kincaid early and throughout the season.  There have been other offensive weapons brought last year that were not incorporated (Hines).  Dorsey does not have the luxury to do that in my assessment.

 

Secondly, I would like to see plays designed to take the pressure off intense pass rushes.  Make the defenses at least a little hesitant to bull rush Josh.  Keep trying to get better at screens, get some swing pass game, and maybe some draws.

[hondo in seattle]

On 8/21/2023 at 5:58 AM, Bangarang said:

So basically what you’re saying is Dorsey gets no credit when things are going well but all the blame when they aren’t? At least you have a reasonable perspective. 

 

Consistency is important.  

[theRalph]

On 8/21/2023 at 12:12 PM, Chaos said:

Levy won four AFC championships. Sean can’t carry his proverbial jock strap yet. 

Levy lost four Superbowls. That jock strap chafes. McD wins one and it's a whole new—and larger— jock strap.

[Chaos]

21 minutes ago, theRalph said:

Levy lost four Superbowls. That jock strap chafes. McD wins one and it's a whole new—and larger— jock strap.

I live in a fact based world.  Lets not credit McDermott with winning a super bowl until he actually wins one. 

[theRalph]

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

2 hours ago, theRalph said:

 

I live in a fact based world.  Lets not credit McDermott with winning a super bowl until he actually wins one. 

Where precisely do I credit McDermott with a championship??? "IF"

[Shemp]

On 8/21/2023 at 12:09 PM, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

it's not just that, guy.

 

it's the fact that he's the winningest coach in Bills history.

 

Better win % than Marv Levy, who had a LOT more talent on that team.

 

 

A lot less playoff success than Marv...except the SBs.

[ALF]

When some players say Dorsey's playbook is the most complicated they have seen , that's not good.

Rex had a too complicated defense , Ralph Krueger had a too complicated system.

[P Riv]

Last season the Bills basically had a gimmick running game that picked up yards because teams were so afraid of Allen and they were caught off guard.  If they can line up in 12 personnel and impose their will on an obvious running down, that's the sign of an offense capable of winning it all.  Allen will benefit greatly from that kind of balance and so will the defense.  I think that's why Harris was signed and I'm sure we're going to see the effort made to get there.  Whether they can make it happen is another story, but I like what they're doing so far.

Edited August 23, 2023 by P Riv

[Toyo321]

This really seems to be a key missing part of the offense compared to all other AFC heavyweight contenders. 

 

Do you truly trust Dorsey to game plan for Cook, Harris, Knox & Kincaid this year?

It always seemed like our RB's and TE's were always the last check down options for Josh last year.

 

I feel this will be important to utilize these guys to their potential this year.

[FireChans]

54 minutes ago, Toyo321 said:

This really seems to be a key missing part of the offense compared to all other AFC heavyweight contenders. 

 

Do you truly trust Dorsey to game plan for Cook, Harris, Knox & Kincaid this year?

It always seemed like our RB's and TE's were always the last check down options for Josh last year.

 

I feel this will be important to utilize these guys to their potential this year.

Knox had more TD’s and yards than Hayden Hurst last year. Joe Mixon averaged 3.9 YPC and had less rushing yards than Singletary on 50 more attempts.

 

Yes, the Chiefs do a great job of scheming around Kelce, who is the arguably greatest TE of all time. 

[C.Biscuit97]

We should have hired Bienemy. That would have been a SB winning move. Just steal all the Chiefs plays. 

6 hours ago, ALF said:

When some players say Dorsey's playbook is the most complicated they have seen , that's not good.

Rex had a too complicated defense , Ralph Krueger had a too complicated system.

It’s so stupid. The worst thing for you as a football player is when you have to think too much and don’t just react and play. I really hope he is learning from this.