I’m kind of Over the Hines Experiment

[clayboy54]

11 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Idk about ya’ll but I was excited about the additional of Nyheim Hines.

 

It seems they’ve slowly, and finally started to work him into the game plan. He was heavily involved early, and then McKenzie started to take over those snaps.

 

It seemed like every sweep, handoff, or target was sniffed out, or went no where. I wonder if there was some sort of formation tell, or they keyed into him based on personnel or usage, but it just flat out stunk.

 

I’m not a huge McKenzie guy, but age again had a solid game. 
 

Im kind of over this trade. Let him return kicks and get touches here and there, and revisit this in the off-season.

 

Singletary is my guy. Let’s let him and Cook take it the rest of the way. 

Wait a minute. Let’s see if we can get the incomparable Moss back!

[DrDawkinstein]

 

 

2 hours ago, nucci said:

They ran 2 sweeps with no blockers in front of him. He's not being used correctly. He's a better receiver . They need to use him as one

 

YES!

[BullBuchanan]

You can't have an experiment when you've done literally 0 testing or analysis. What are you even talking about? He hasn't played.

[NewEra]

Stop being so emotionally unstable. 

[Airseven]

Leave Hines as kick returner. These sweeps and screens are pitiful.

 

More importantly, Cook is developing into the lead back. Very encouraged on that front.

[KHAN]

It would be nice to see him get a few non-gadget play touches. He's clearly a huge upgrade from Moss. But he'll be #3 the rest of this year.

[TampaBillsJunkie]

Hynes is a weapon.  He's sure handed on returns and has speed to burn in the passing game. It's up to Dorsey to utilize those skills. Singletary drops screens and fails to outrun the second level. Love him as a runner, but Hynes has other skills that can help open up the offense.

Edited December 3, 2022 by TampaBillsJunkie

[newcam2012]

1 minute ago, TampaBillsJunkie said:

Hynes a weapon.  He's sure handed on returns and has speed to burn in the passing game. It's up to Dorsey to utilize those skills. Singletary drops screens and fails to outrun the second level. Love him as a runner, but Hynes has other skills that can help open up the offense.

I think his skills will be showcased when it really matters. Right now, the Bills seem to be happy with just using him in the return game. I might add he's very good, steady, and reliable. Huge upgrade there and worth the pick up alone on special teams. No doubt Cook emerging might derail Hines' playing time. That's not a bad thing. I'm thinking Hines will be used more in the passing game come playoff time. 

[Logic]

Even if he was JUST a quality, dependable kick and punt returner and 4 phase special teams player, he'd have been a good acquisition based on how little the Bills gave up to get him.

The fact that he has started to be involved in multi-RB packages on offense and is acting as pre-snap motion/eye candy and outlet receiver option for Josh on RPOs is a bonus. And there's also the matter of that little thing called depth. If Singletary or Cook have to miss a few snaps or a few games, I'll feel MUCH better knowing we have Hines in the fold.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Logic

[Teddy KGB]

Which threads gonna be worse in a month 

 

I hate James Cook 

 

I hate Hines 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Airseven said:

Leave Hines as kick returner. These sweeps and screens are pitiful.

 

More importantly, Cook is developing into the lead back. Very encouraged on that front.

Do you think Hines is the reason the sweeps and screens were pitiful?  
 

Putting him in motion is one of the reasons he had so much success running up the middle.  

[Bob in STL]

12 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Idk about ya’ll but I was excited about the additional of Nyheim Hines.

 

It seems they’ve slowly, and finally started to work him into the game plan. He was heavily involved early, and then McKenzie started to take over those snaps.

 

It seemed like every sweep, handoff, or target was sniffed out, or went no where. I wonder if there was some sort of formation tell, or they keyed into him based on personnel or usage, but it just flat out stunk.

 

I’m not a huge McKenzie guy, but age again had a solid game. 
 

Im kind of over this trade. Let him return kicks and get touches here and there, and revisit this in the off-season.

 

Singletary is my guy. Let’s let him and Cook take it the rest of the way. 

Experiment?   Over the trade? 

 

What were you expecting?  The next Thurman Thomas?    He is a role player, and his role right now is KR/PR/spot RB.  

[HoofHearted]

12 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

The sweep from the 8 was stillborn from the snap.  Very poor play design leaves the Cheats best defensive player, Judon, unblocked, for an easy 3 yard TFL.  Dorsey didn't do Hines any favors.

 

Maybe look into the concept the Bills were running before making statements like this?

[ArdmoreRyno]

Yep! After his 4 carries this season, I've seen all I need to see. 🤣

[SWATeam]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

You can't have an experiment when you've done literally 0 testing or analysis. What are you even talking about? He hasn't played.

@Logic post in postgame thread-

 

Thought this was really interesting, from Joe Buscaglia's Athletic article today (paywall):

https://theathletic.com/3960194/2022/12/02/bills-patriots-result-thursday-night-football/


"The Cook and Hines package returns with a vengeance

Against the Browns in Week 11, the Bills flashed a personnel package including both Cook and Nyheim Hines as a means to put pressure on the defense in different ways. They did it on a handful of snaps, but it wasn’t a heavy piece of their game plan. Then against the Lions in Week 12, the Bills mostly went away from that personnel grouping, and Hines himself as the back had only four snaps total.

But offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey may have been keeping it in his back pocket for the Patriots game, as they used Cook and Hines on the field together a whopping 12 times throughout the game. While it doesn’t seem like a lot, that’s far more two-running back sets than the Bills had ever run previously. The Bills effectively used Hines in a similar way Brian Daboll used Isaiah McKenzie as a gadget receiver several years ago. And despite some plays that were duds, it was highly productive with some chunk plays. The Bills gained 78 yards on those 12 plays, for an average of 6.5 yards each time. Considering the Bills only averaged 4.6 yards per play on their other 60 plays, that Cook and Hines group gave them a major edge as it was sprinkled in throughout the game."

 

 

On top of things as always Bull!

[Freddie's Dead]

11 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

 

Maybe look into the concept the Bills were running before making statements like this?

 

Dude, I saw it with my own eyes.  The play design did not account at all for where Judon lined up.  There were no blockers anywhere remotely near him.  I guess it's possible that an OL ***** up badly, but I didn't see that.  Judon went straight to Hines and stopped him in his tracks.  The only other explanation is that Josh ***** up by not calling an audible against a defense that was going to destroy that play.  

[NewEra]

55 minutes ago, Logic said:

Even if he was JUST acquired so we don’t have to see Zack Moss again, he'd have been a good acquisition based on how little the Bills gave up to get him.

The fact that he has started to be involved in multi-RB packages on offense and is acting as pre-snap motion/eye candy and outlet receiver option for Josh on RPOs is a bonus. And there's also the matter of that little thing called depth. If Singletary or Cook have to miss a few snaps or a few games, I'll feel MUCH better knowing we have Hines in the fold.

Fixed this for ya buddy.  Even if he was inactive every game, he was worth trading for to send Moss into exile

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

In today's Athletic, there's an article in part talking about how much more effective the Bills offense is when both Hines and Cook are in backfield together.  So the the experiment is just ramping up.

[HoofHearted]

24 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

Dude, I saw it with my own eyes.  The play design did not account at all for where Judon lined up.  There were no blockers anywhere remotely near him.  I guess it's possible that an OL ***** up badly, but I didn't see that.  Judon went straight to Hines and stopped him in his tracks.  The only other explanation is that Josh ***** up by not calling an audible against a defense that was going to destroy that play.  

Again, understand the concept and then it'll help you understand what you are seeing.

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

If he’s not going to have an 85 yard TD run every game….I don’t want him…

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

You can't have an experiment when you've done literally 0 testing or analysis. What are you even talking about? He hasn't played.

 

4, 6, 10, 4 and 23 snaps in his 5 games.  Beautiful 21 yd catch last night.

 

13 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Again, understand the concept and then it'll help you understand what you are seeing.

 

Any chance you could offer a bit of an explanation for those of us in the back of the class?

Edited December 2, 2022 by Beck Water

[Success]

I'm not.

 

For starters, I love his return game.  He has broken some long ones, and more importantly, I trust him w/ ball security.

 

They have used him so sparsely on offense that there is no way to gauge him there yet. The plays that he has had looked poorly designed, imo - or poorly executed.  The blocks simply haven't been there to allow him to show what he can do.

 

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

4, 6, 10, 4 and 23 snaps in his 5 games.  Beautiful 21 yd catch last night.

 

 

Any chance you could offer a bit of an explanation for those of us in the back of the class?

Sure. It was Q Counter Read. The read on this can change based on how they are teaching the concept, but the end to the sweep side is going to be unblocked either way. I don't have a replay of that exact play, but they ran the same concept at 2:14 in this highlight clip.

 

[RochesterLifer]

For the OP, who is "kind of over the Hines experiment", The Athletic reminds us as football is about all eleven performing together:

 

The Cook and Hines package returns with a vengeance

...offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey may have been keeping it in his back pocket for the Patriots game, as they used Cook and Hines on the field together a whopping 12 times throughout the game. While it doesn’t seem like a lot, that’s far more two-running back sets than the Bills had ever run previously. The Bills effectively used Hines in a similar way Brian Daboll used Isaiah McKenzie as a gadget receiver several years ago. And despite some plays that were duds, it was highly productive with some chunk plays. The Bills gained 78 yards on those 12 plays, for an average of 6.5 yards each time. Considering the Bills only averaged 4.6 yards per play on their other 60 plays, that Cook and Hines group gave them a major edge as it was sprinkled in throughout the game.

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, SWATeam said:

@Logic post in postgame thread-

 

Thought this was really interesting, from Joe Buscaglia's Athletic article today (paywall):

https://theathletic.com/3960194/2022/12/02/bills-patriots-result-thursday-night-football/


"The Cook and Hines package returns with a vengeance

Against the Browns in Week 11, the Bills flashed a personnel package including both Cook and Nyheim Hines as a means to put pressure on the defense in different ways. They did it on a handful of snaps, but it wasn’t a heavy piece of their game plan. Then against the Lions in Week 12, the Bills mostly went away from that personnel grouping, and Hines himself as the back had only four snaps total.

But offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey may have been keeping it in his back pocket for the Patriots game, as they used Cook and Hines on the field together a whopping 12 times throughout the game. While it doesn’t seem like a lot, that’s far more two-running back sets than the Bills had ever run previously. The Bills effectively used Hines in a similar way Brian Daboll used Isaiah McKenzie as a gadget receiver several years ago. And despite some plays that were duds, it was highly productive with some chunk plays. The Bills gained 78 yards on those 12 plays, for an average of 6.5 yards each time. Considering the Bills only averaged 4.6 yards per play on their other 60 plays, that Cook and Hines group gave them a major edge as it was sprinkled in throughout the game."

 

 

On top of things as always Bull!

thanks for backing me up?

28 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

4, 6, 10, 4 and 23 snaps in his 5 games.  Beautiful 21 yd catch last night.

 

 

Any chance you could offer a bit of an explanation for those of us in the back of the class?

 

exactly. was nice to see him finally get some minor involvement

 

[Codyny13]

Hines being on the field completely changes the defensive look, as they need to account for his speed, especially when him and Cooks in the backfield together. Dorsey tried to set the pats up w the motion looks w the counter but the pats didn’t bite, the ends stayed at home. Hines can be a weapon they just need to figure out how best to use him, and he’s a huge upgrade in the return game which is reason enough to have him over Moss.

[K-9]

15 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said:

For the OP, who is "kind of over the Hines experiment", The Athletic reminds us as football is about all eleven performing together:

 

The Cook and Hines package returns with a vengeance

...offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey may have been keeping it in his back pocket for the Patriots game, as they used Cook and Hines on the field together a whopping 12 times throughout the game. While it doesn’t seem like a lot, that’s far more two-running back sets than the Bills had ever run previously. The Bills effectively used Hines in a similar way Brian Daboll used Isaiah McKenzie as a gadget receiver several years ago. And despite some plays that were duds, it was highly productive with some chunk plays. The Bills gained 78 yards on those 12 plays, for an average of 6.5 yards each time. Considering the Bills only averaged 4.6 yards per play on their other 60 plays, that Cook and Hines group gave them a major edge as it was sprinkled in throughout the game.

Speed kills.

[Freddie's Dead]

46 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Again, understand the concept and then it'll help you understand what you are seeing.

 

You and posters like you make this board a worse place.  Instead of offering your opinion so we can have a discussion, you condescend not once, but twice, telling me I don't understand.   But you can't be bothered to explain yourself, you just question my intelligence ad hominem.  I told you what I saw twice, but you won't even explain your point of view once.  Go away, troll.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Freddie's Dead

[ElMarko]

12 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Averages are not a basis.  They were used different times in different situations/

Nonsense. A running back is judged by their yards per carry, catches (yards per catch), fumbles and blocking ability. The situation is meaningless unless its pre-season.

 

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

You and posters like you make this board a worse place.  Instead of offering your opinion so we can have a discussion, you condescend not once, but twice, telling me I don't understand.   But you can't be bothered to explain yourself, you just question my intelligence ad hominem.  I told you what I saw twice, but you won't even explain your point of view once.  Go away, troll.

Sorry, it gets old correcting people who don't understand what they are looking at, but want to make outlandish statements.

[Gugny]

Just now, HoofHearted said:

Sorry, it gets old correcting people who don't understand what they are looking at, but want to make outlandish statements.

 

Now THAT is a sincere apology!

 

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Now THAT is a sincere apology!

 

You're welcome.

[Les Vegetables]

I saw a few plays where Hines was used as a decoy on a jet sweeps. In those plays, the linebacker paused on his pursuit and opened a running lane for or RB’s. That tells me that the Patriots were worried about his potential and prepared as such. I hardly count Hines as a waste and he played a roll in the success of our offense last night. Not to mention his reliability catching punts. 

[Orlando Tim]

The guy has been on the roster less than a whole month and they are slowly working him in, I would expect him to get about 8 touches a game come playoff time. 

[JohnNord]

On 12/1/2022 at 11:52 PM, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Idk about ya’ll but I was excited about the additional of Nyheim Hines.

 

It seems they’ve slowly, and finally started to work him into the game plan. He was heavily involved early, and then McKenzie started to take over those snaps.

 

It seemed like every sweep, handoff, or target was sniffed out, or went no where. I wonder if there was some sort of formation tell, or they keyed into him based on personnel or usage, but it just flat out stunk.

 

I’m not a huge McKenzie guy, but age again had a solid game. 
 

Im kind of over this trade. Let him return kicks and get touches here and there, and revisit this in the off-season.

 

Singletary is my guy. Let’s let him and Cook take it the rest of the way. 

That’s the fault of the scheme/play calling…not Hines. 

[Charles Romes]

I’m loving Hines. Minimal heart palpitations when the punt is in the air.  

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Imagine being kind of over the josh Allen experiment after half his first season with the team 😂

[The Frankish Reich]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:05 PM, Warcodered said:

The one time he caught the ball on the sort of play everyone thought he'd be doing he did exactly what he was brought here to and got some quick yards. Those sweeps they were ready for and never had a shot.

 

On 12/1/2022 at 10:04 PM, Freddie's Dead said:

The sweep from the 8 was stillborn from the snap.  Very poor play design leaves the Cheats best defensive player, Judon, unblocked, for an easy 3 yard TFL.  Dorsey didn't do Hines any favors.

Agreed. I remember when McKenzie first arrived here. A lot of his early touches were on plays that were easy reads for the defense with predictable results. It took a while for Daboll to figure out how to use him. I think that by the end of the regular season Dorsey will find ways to get Hines into space, and I'm looking forward to seeing that. He is a McKenzie type, but with more flat-out open field speed.

[Mark92]

The Bills are not using him properly.  He is a receiving threat out of the backfield or out wide.  Until they start using him this way my opinion of him can't be made.  

[The Frankish Reich]

On 12/2/2022 at 11:35 AM, RochesterLifer said:

For the OP, who is "kind of over the Hines experiment", The Athletic reminds us as football is about all eleven performing together:

 

The Cook and Hines package returns with a vengeance

...offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey may have been keeping it in his back pocket for the Patriots game, as they used Cook and Hines on the field together a whopping 12 times throughout the game. While it doesn’t seem like a lot, that’s far more two-running back sets than the Bills had ever run previously. The Bills effectively used Hines in a similar way Brian Daboll used Isaiah McKenzie as a gadget receiver several years ago. And despite some plays that were duds, it was highly productive with some chunk plays. The Bills gained 78 yards on those 12 plays, for an average of 6.5 yards each time. Considering the Bills only averaged 4.6 yards per play on their other 60 plays, that Cook and Hines group gave them a major edge as it was sprinkled in throughout the game.

That's such good actual analysis that I might have to give in and actually subscribe to The Athletic.

Unless of course you just keep digesting the best parts for me.