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NFLPA initiating investigation into Tua’s concussion protocol


YoloinOhio

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2 minutes ago, wjag said:

So YOLO, reading the title, what's a "concession" protocol?  Is that when he decides to leave the game?  🙂 

 

or should it be a "confession protocol" where he admits he was concussed? 🙂 

For Miami, it's the confetti protocol. Nothing to see here, let's party!

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13 minutes ago, skibum said:

Why is everyone so certain that Tua was concussed on Sunday? I have had back pain that has literally knocked me to my knees, and I have never been tackled by a 300 lb man. 

Come on. I had a disk replaced in my lower spine . I was never like Tua was on Sunday

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10 minutes ago, skibum said:

Why is everyone so certain that Tua was concussed on Sunday? I have had back pain that has literally knocked me to my knees, and I have never been tackled by a 300 lb man. 

 

Because he was visibly concussed. Back injuries don't cause that disorientation.

 

People who are/were part of fight sports or even fans of fight sports can tell you on the spot it was a concussion. Don't need a doctor to tell me that.

 

Tua was clearly concussed to a casual observer Sunday and somehow never went through protocol, and then had another brain injury 4 days later. That's also why the second was so much worse- it's literally why they have protocols, because re-inury to the brain shortly after a first concussion are the real danger.

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Honestly, the Phins are looking like a classless and clueless organization following Tua's second concussion in 4 days.  They mortgaged their season to win their Super Bowl in Week 3.  Be thankful we have McD and Beane who will rest their injured even knowing it might result in a loss.   

 

That being said, I hope Tua has a speedy recovery and makes his way back on the field this year barring any set backs.  Personal health first.  He's got a long life yet ahead of him, don't jeopardize that for the sake of the Dolphins brass who clearly do not consider his long term health a priority.

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20 minutes ago, skibum said:

Why is everyone so certain that Tua was concussed on Sunday? I have had back pain that has literally knocked me to my knees, and I have never been tackled by a 300 lb man. 

If my back is causing me debilitating pain, I have a tendency to grab my back as an initial reaction.  There was none of that on Sunday.  Tua reached for his helmet.

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Some on social media are saying McDaniel should be fired for playing Tua last night.  I'm not ready to go there.  The team doctors and independent evaluator(s) are supposed to check the guys out and clear the players to play again.  How is a head coach supposed to know if a guy is medically ready to play?  He is not a doctor?

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2 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Some on social media are saying McDaniel should be fired for playing Tua last night.  I'm not ready to go there.  The team doctors and independent evaluator(s) are supposed to check the guys out and clear the players to play again.  How is a head coach supposed to know if a guy is medically ready to play?  He is not a doctor?

if he is fired… what’s Brian Flores up to these days?

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The Dolphins mortgaged Tua's health to get that "W" against us.  They pressed their luck trying to get the same against the Bengals figuring they had they the long rest before the next game for him to recover, but paid the price this time.  Problem is, they were potentially wagering Tua's long-term health.  No game is worth that.

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Just now, zow2 said:

Some on social media are saying McDaniel should be fired for playing Tua last night.  I'm not ready to go there.  The team doctors and independent evaluator(s) are supposed to check the guys out and clear the players to play again.  How is a head coach supposed to know if a guy is medically ready to play?  He is not a doctor?

 

Because it's obvious he was concussed, and the only way he gets back into the Bills game was if he was never even evaluated for a concussion.

 

They lied about the injury to get him back in the Bills game and to cover their butts this week leading up to the Bengals game.

 

But I'm not calling for McDaniels to be fired. I do understand though it's the coaches and ultimately the NFL who's responsible to save these players from themselves in situations like this.

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1 hour ago, Beast said:

My question is, even if Tua was not allowed to go back in the Bills game would that change what happened to him last night?

If he was "in the protocol" and removed for a concussion, I do wonder if they'd have let him play on a short week. Hard to say. Clearly NFL and some teams sometimes just...do whatever they want.

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5 minutes ago, Golden*Wheels said:

If he was "in the protocol" and removed for a concussion, I do wonder if they'd have let him play on a short week. Hard to say. Clearly NFL and some teams sometimes just...do whatever they want.


Right. That’s exactly what I’m getting at. He still may have played. He also may not have. 
 

Maybe this will force a mandatory out for at least a game? I don’t know. I guess it still boils down to his original prognosis against the Bills. 

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3 minutes ago, Golden*Wheels said:

If he was "in the protocol" and removed for a concussion, I do wonder if they'd have let him play on a short week. Hard to say. Clearly NFL and some teams sometimes just...do whatever they want.

Yeah, they get evaluated each day if I remember correctly. If they fail, they have to wait 48 hours before being tested again. If they pass, they're good to go right away. I assume he would've been passed the first day.

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2 hours ago, Ayjent said:

The NFL has never been one to pursue accountability beyond the players until it is undeniably blatant and even then it is iffy it involves the organization rather than specific actors.  I love football but the NFL really does allow some horrible crap to occur without much accountability.  If the protocol is easy to navigate around then it’s all for optics with no meaning which sounds about right, bc that’s just how insincere most measures to protect or promote employee well being are within organizations.  And don’t get me wrong there is personal accountability of Tua here too, but people dedicated to their craft and their colleagues/teammates are conditioned to do what’s best for the team, especially in sports.  
 

As far as NFLPA getting anywhere - hard to say and depends on several factors, including how the Dolphins and NFL handle this moving forward.  They are doing what they can by exerting pressure exploring legal avenues, pursing investigations and making public comments, but they are up against super connected Billionaires who are pretty much shielded from accountability and really own the league - not exactly an easy task. These players make good money but it’s chump change to these owners and the well paid ones are pretty reluctant to speak out. 

I’m always wary of people who say “trust me” or “I’m going to be straight with you…”.  It’s pretty much signaling that your BS meter should going off. 


 

That may or may not be true - what we know is the NFL has put in place a consistent and verifiable protocol to follow and took it out of the hands of team doctors that may have some stake in the game and brought in - independent teams to review and determine the outcomes.

 

If the players - find loop holes that allow them to clear the protocol faster - that is not on the NFL for failing the players - that is on the players and the NLFPA.
 

The NFL wants consistency and to show they are following the designed and agreed to protocols - that is their goal.  The issue is a concussion is a very individual injury and the best/quick way to identify it is the cognitive tests.  If as has been stated - Tua passed those cognitive tests - what grounds are there set up for someone to say - “No, you can’t play” - you may have had a concussion, but all testing shows you are fine.

 

I would have been fine if the “wobbly legs” he displayed was enough to automatically put them in the full protocol, but that is not the agreed to rule and unless either Tua or the independent doctor comes forward and says something was not done according to protocol or Tua says I didn’t feel comfortable- the NFLPA has nothing to stand on.

 

So far all we have heard is that Tua was evaluated (no timing on how quickly after the initial hit) and that he passed the cognitive tests that cleared him from the protocol and at that time the team decided it was less a head injury and more of a back issue (probably BS, but we are not there and the only thing he needed to do to return was pass his cognitive test).

 

The worst part - is a good coach and training staff - never lets him back out against Buffalo - just to protect the player from himself and then re-evaluates throughout the week and most likely gives him another week to recover, but the Dolphins and Tua did themselves a disservice because he wanted to play and they want to win.

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19 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Some on social media are saying McDaniel should be fired for playing Tua last night.  I'm not ready to go there.  The team doctors and independent evaluator(s) are supposed to check the guys out and clear the players to play again.  How is a head coach supposed to know if a guy is medically ready to play?  He is not a doctor?

Because NFL is a brotherhood or likes to think of itself as one.  These coaches ask a lot out of their players and these players put their health on the line every day.   The least a coach can do is look out for their players regardless of the protocol.  Use their own eyes.  

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59 minutes ago, MJS said:

One of the former players in the post-game said he got a concussion and was able to BS his way through the protocol and get back on the field. Another teammate pulled him out and told the coaches he wasn't right and shouldn't be playing.

 

If you can BS your way through the protocol, obviously it is not good enough. They need to determine without any doubt that they do not have a concussion. Scan their brain or something. There has to be more concrete ways of determining this. What the player says or does shouldn't be a factor. Take it out of their hands.


 

It is difficult - players have repeated stated they have purposely lowered their baseline cognitive testing to help them clear protocol faster.

 

That is not really on the NFL - the protocol will work if players follow the protocol correctly and answer the questions honestly, but the players want to play - so they have found ways to game the system.

 

The issue is there are minor plays and major plays that could lead to concussions - I am not sure every time a guy gets a hand upside the head - they want to get a brain scan.  Additionally the time and equipment to take and read a brain scan would be very difficult in a football stadium - so then are you pulling and sending these players to the hospital mid game for scans.

 

The cognitive testing will work fine - if players take the baseline testing seriously and the protocol is followed, but if players decide to game the system to help them return there is little the NFL can do on their own - that is on the NFLPA for not instructing the players to take the baseline testing seriously and for asking for more baseline testing levels.

 

Players all of the time have to have their helmets taking away to keep them from returning during games with injuries and in this case the Dolphins and Tua did themselves a disservice as he should never have been cleared Sunday and the protocol should have kept him out of the Thursday game, but whatever he did for baseline cognitive testing - Tua was able to repeat that and pass the cognitive testing and therefore there was nothing the NFL could do to stop him - he passed the agreed to required testing to get back.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, nucci said:

Come on. I had a disk replaced in my lower spine . I was never like Tua was on Sunday


I have 3 herniations in my lumbar, 2 in my cervical, and spinal stenosis. 
 

That isn’t the way people walk when having disc issues. 

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  • YoloinOhio changed the title to NFLPA initiating investigation into Tua’s concussion protocol

Miami acted like a team feeling they had to risk it all for every regular season win.

 

fortunately the Bills staff are comfortable keeping the overall picture and goal in mind when dealing with risky decisions like injuries.  Miami looks foolish right now.  I don’t think they were deliberate in lying to shut down risk, they were ignorant to what the risk was in an effort to win their super bowl (week 3 against us) and then stay atop the division.

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40 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Some on social media are saying McDaniel should be fired for playing Tua last night.  I'm not ready to go there.  The team doctors and independent evaluator(s) are supposed to check the guys out and clear the players to play again.  How is a head coach supposed to know if a guy is medically ready to play?  He is not a doctor?

He's the head coach with medical info available to him for all his players....he's not a Dr. but he does have judgement.  You use your best judgement and err on the side of caution when it comes to the health and safety of others.  He either chose to look the other way to continue the Phins hype train and re-enforce his ego or he just has poor judgement.  

 

If he did something not on the level with Tua regarding his health, he will lose the respect of the veterans on that team.

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This concussion specialist wasn't buying it either and said Sunday was an "obvious" concussion...calling for medical staff and coaches to be fired and is concerned about long term effects or possibly him dying from secondary effects...maybe a little over the top but I am sure it happens and he likely has seen it happen...

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/guys-jail-concussion-expert-rages-113938318.html

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18 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:


 

It is difficult - players have repeated stated they have purposely lowered their baseline cognitive testing to help them clear protocol faster.

 

That is not really on the NFL - the protocol will work if players follow the protocol correctly and answer the questions honestly, but the players want to play - so they have found ways to game the system.

 

The issue is there are minor plays and major plays that could lead to concussions - I am not sure every time a guy gets a hand upside the head - they want to get a brain scan.  Additionally the time and equipment to take and read a brain scan would be very difficult in a football stadium - so then are you pulling and sending these players to the hospital mid game for scans.

 

The cognitive testing will work fine - if players take the baseline testing seriously and the protocol is followed, but if players decide to game the system to help them return there is little the NFL can do on their own - that is on the NFLPA for not instructing the players to take the baseline testing seriously and for asking for more baseline testing levels.

 

Players all of the time have to have their helmets taking away to keep them from returning during games with injuries and in this case the Dolphins and Tua did themselves a disservice as he should never have been cleared Sunday and the protocol should have kept him out of the Thursday game, but whatever he did for baseline cognitive testing - Tua was able to repeat that and pass the cognitive testing and therefore there was nothing the NFL could do to stop him - he passed the agreed to required testing to get back.

 

 


Just to be clear? if this isn’t on the league is it your ascertain that NHL players are just more honest than NFL players. Lindros, Crosby, Tim Connolly all missed an entire season or more with one concussion? Because other leagues are identifying more concussions with more extensive delays to return. 
 

Somebody posted an earlier a quote from the NFL about protocol along the lines of “we prefer a team approach to concussion evaluation with the independent neurologist and team physician because of familiarity”. I think it’s a liability fail safe to cover the neuro and play the player. 
 

In theory the team physician is there to tell the neurologist that symptoms that may be clinically insignificant should be taken into consideration. But what we see with Tua is the team physician is offering possibilities of alternative differentials. Given the replay of Tua’s first hit and his attempt to walk away there isn’t a neuro on the planet willing to clear him. Not without another clinician present providing alternatives. 
 

Given the embarrassingly low rate of games/weeks missed in the NFL compared to other sporting leagues, it’s reasonable to assume that this is happening regularly. 
 

I’d imagine that there are a lot of team docs similar to James E Woods’ character in “Any Given Sunday”

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2 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

 

 

 

Thanks for finding this, I caught the back half of this on TV and it sounded like Rapoport said he was not in concussion protocol Sunday, but the full parsing was "he was examined for a concussion, found to not have a concussion by team doctors and independent neurologist, and therefore was removed from concussion protocol"

 

 

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However this investigation turns out, if I was a Dolphins fan I'd be really concerned about Tua's durability. Some players have a knack for avoiding injuries by positioning their bodies just right when getting hit. I think Allen is one of those players, he has a good feel for never taking a true knockout hit. Tua on the other hand gets injured all the time. Milano gave him a love tap and he managed to smack the back of his head on the ground. I don't mean any offense with that statement, it's just the reality of the sport that you have to be able to withstand violence. So you have a player that you can never rely on for a whole season and a ceiling of maybe 16th best QB in the league. What is the realistic path for a player like that to be a franchise QB?

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3 hours ago, Beast said:

My question is, even if Tua was not allowed to go back in the Bills game would that change what happened to him last night?

Yes. League concussion protocol states no practice and 6 days in the protocol program. They wouldn’t have been able to play him on 4 days between games.

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7 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Yes. League concussion protocol states no practice and 6 days in the protocol program. They wouldn’t have been able to play him on 4 days between games.

I don't think that's right.  Bates was limited yesterday and he is in the protocol.  I'm sure limited is a very broad term but he was still practicing. 

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WOW. I wasn't able to watch the game and I think after what Ive read here I'll skip the replays too.  This debacle stinks to high heaven. Some times you just have to wonder WHY we are lining these rat *******'s pockets . Im a lifelong diehard Bills fan. And Ive always had a great disdain of miami over history. But this is scumbaggery to a whole different level. Senor Tua likely didn't want Out of the game last week. But he had no busines being let back in and now THIS.

 

Good grief. nasty nasty business. I love the NFL but I hate it at the same time

 

there are some dawd awful franchises in the NFL but Miami The pats* and the Cleveland Browns have to be in the top 3. Oh include Spanos in san diego too.

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27 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

This guy is an idiot!

 

It will be interesting to see how McDaniel handles his first bit of adversity.  He has received nothing but glowing praise and adoration up to this point.  So far he seems really flustered and awkward dealing with it.  Hopefully this will not be brushed under the rug and the media will hold him accountable for his horrible decision to ignore the obvious concussion from Sunday and put Tua right back on the field. 

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2 hours ago, skibum said:

Why is everyone so certain that Tua was concussed on Sunday? I have had back pain that has literally knocked me to my knees, and I have never been tackled by a 300 lb man. 

 

There is a difference between being knocked to your knees and walking around like your drunk and shaking his head. Back pain doesnt make one stagger like that. Everyone sitting on their couch knew he was concussed.

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36 minutes ago, Ralonzo said:

 

Thanks for finding this, I caught the back half of this on TV and it sounded like Rapoport said he was not in concussion protocol Sunday, but the full parsing was "he was examined for a concussion, found to not have a concussion by team doctors and independent neurologist, and therefore was removed from concussion protocol"

 

 

 

Yep. That is exactly what he was saying. He was examined by he independent neurologist, not diagnosed as having suffered a concussion, and as such did not enter the formal part of "the protocol". 

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4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. That is exactly what he was saying. He was examined by he independent neurologist, not diagnosed as having suffered a concussion, and as such did not enter the formal part of "the protocol". 

Players learn in high school how to game that system. All they have to do lie a bit and learn to mask the response to a bright light in their eyes. Players in the past have talked about purposefully doing poorly on the baseline testing so that they can fake their way through that initial assessment.  

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