Benford is outplaying 1st rounder Elam in camp (edit) Benford gets start

[MJS]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

But we need 3 starting CB's.

Two outside. One in the slot. Taron Johnson is the starting slot corner. This is only about outside corners.

[Bill from NYC]

3 hours ago, HOUSE said:

Ok, so we drafted Benford in the 1st and Elam in the 6th

 

Are you happy now ?

Yes. As long as we drafted (and traded up for) a first round corner all is well.

[The Jokeman]

3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Yes. As long as we drafted (and traded up for) a first round corner all is well.

We actually traded down for White  

[BillsVet]

4 minutes ago, jahnyc said:

If one of the two of Benford and Elam end up being a starting caliber corner, it all will be okay.  I seem to recall that there were negatives noted for Elam in the pre-draft reviews, and he did seem to experience a significant rise up draft boards as the draft approached.  I also read recently (can't remember where) a review of recent first round CB picks, and it was kind of shocking the number that were already out of the league, on teams other than the teams that drafted them, or performing poorly.

 

This same rationale was used in 2006 when John McCargo flopped out of the league and Kyle Williams played well.  Sure, it's great that they get a starting player but missing on 1st rounders and claiming that's acceptable for the aforementioned reason isn't enough.  Not when the HC is from that side of the ball and has significant input into drafting that player.   

 

McD's big thing is secondary and he's invested a ton there. 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Georgie said:

I dont know that they actually said Benford was "outplaying " Elam. Seemed more like he is "pushing" Elam. I'll listen again but...

Update: they do not say Benford has outplayed Elam. I interpret them as saying he has exceeded expectatuons of being a 6th round pick. 

 

The guy said Benford has to be on the field, and he clearly wasn't saying that about Elam.  His conclusion, which sounds correct, is that against the Rams we will see a rotation of those two, and in the fourth quarter they'll go with the hotter hand. Actually, I think it will be a three man rotation with Jackson.  More confusing to the offense that way. 

 

What's best about all this is that more and more it's sounding like corner isnt a problem to start the season.  Not a strength, maybe, but not a problem. 

[jahnyc]

1 minute ago, BillsVet said:

 

This same rationale was used in 2006 when John McCargo flopped out of the league and Kyle Williams played well.  Sure, it's great that they get a starting player but missing on 1st rounders and claiming that's acceptable for the aforementioned reason isn't enough.  Not when the HC is from that side of the ball and has significant input into drafting that player.   

 

McD's big thing is secondary and he's invested a ton there. 

 

I do not disagree.  If Benford does develop and Elam does not, it does mitigate the overall situation, but we can't miss on first round picks, and there is a significant opportunity cost if that does happen.

[ProcessTruster]

Benford started as a true freshman in college, Elam became a starter later.   

 

Elam is a press corner, Benford is a zone coverage guy, taller, rangier, better tackler (like the guy we let go) perhaps a better initial fit in the McD zone coverage. 

 

Elam's higher ceiling will make likely make him the longer term starter, but yeah, maybe Benford just fits better right now.  

 

Is what it is.  Love how McBeanes just go with the better fit at the time, don't let the media distract them.   

 

And we'll end up with two starting calibre DBs instead of just one.  Works for me. 

[SWATeam]

3 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Benford started as a true freshman in college, Elam became a starter later.   

 

Elam is a press corner, Benford is a zone coverage guy, taller, rangier, better tackler (like the guy we let go) perhaps a better initial fit in the McD zone coverage. 

 

Elam's higher ceiling will make likely make him the longer term starter, but yeah, maybe Benford just fits better right now.  

 

Is what it is.  Love how McBeanes just go with the better fit at the time, don't let the media distract them.   

 

And we'll end up with two starting calibre DBs instead of just one.  Works for me. 

I think it will be situational to start.  If the matchup requires physical man to man coverage on a guy like, say, Allen Robinson- we'll see more Elam.  If we want to play more true zone in a given week it will be more Benford.

[hemma]

Arizona beat the Rams 37-20 in game 4 last year and held Kupp to  ~64 yards.  Pretty sure they played man.

Might see more Elam than Benford in Game 1.

[BananaB]

Who cares, that’s just good for us. 

[FireChans]

44 minutes ago, MJS said:

Two outside. One in the slot. Taron Johnson is the starting slot corner. This is only about outside corners.

Right so:

 

Dane - ??? - ???

TJ - Neal - ???

Elam/Benford - ??? - ???

 

one of Elam or Benford will be starting week 1.

[Doc]

The Bills went into the draft looking to get a starting CB.  As long as they get one, regardless of whether it's Elam or Benford, it was a successful draft.  If they can get 2...

 

And I agree that Benford is/should be looking better because this is his type of defense.  Hopefully Elam will get there and prove to be even better than Benford.

[Alphadawg7]

I will never understand this obsession fans and media place on draft position.  I assure you the coaches dont care where a player was taken, they will start and play the guy they feel is the most ready to help them win that game.  And that can change as the season goes on too.  

 

Elam not being ready week 1 does not in any way indicate he will be a bust either.  He was drafted knowing there are things he must correct before he will be ready to contribute, the main one being how handsy he is.  There is nothing coaches hate more than free yards and free first downs from penalties.  

 

So if they feel like Elam isn't there yet and Benford is, they will start Benford.  There is also the possibility neither of them starts week 1 if Tre is ready and they go with Dane and Tre as the starters to begin the season.  

 

And at the end of the day, both started a preseason game and had a solid day against a first team offense despite not even having the first team defense around them.  So its a good problem to have when you have a 6th rounder out producing his draft position and pushing for playing time.  Elam may need more time before they trust him out there, its not a big deal. 

[White Linen]

McD is truly impressive at coaching DB's.  

[MJS]

28 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Right so:

 

Dane - ??? - ???

TJ - Neal - ???

Elam/Benford - ??? - ???

 

one of Elam or Benford will be starting week 1.

There aren't 3 starting outside corners. There are only 2.

[TBBills]

I will let you know in a few weeks.

[wppete]

10 minutes ago, White Linen said:

McD is truly impressive at coaching DB's.  

McD, Leslie Frazier and Butler are. 

[TOboy]

58 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Benford started as a true freshman in college, Elam became a starter later.   

 

Elam is a press corner, Benford is a zone coverage guy, taller, rangier, better tackler (like the guy we let go) perhaps a better initial fit in the McD zone coverage. 

 

Elam's higher ceiling will make likely make him the longer term starter, but yeah, maybe Benford just fits better right now.  

 

Is what it is.  Love how McBeanes just go with the better fit at the time, don't let the media distract them.   

 

And we'll end up with two starting calibre DBs instead of just one.  Works for me. 

Benford is listed at 6’1, he’s not taller than Elam. But he is probably a more natural fit for this scheme. 
 

Elam will be really good, he just needs time to adjust. 
 

[strive_for_five_guy]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I will never understand this obsession fans and media place on draft position.  I assure you the coaches dont care where a player was taken, they will start and play the guy they feel is the most ready to help them win that game.  And that can change as the season goes on too.  

 

Elam not being ready week 1 does not in any way indicate he will be a bust either.  He was drafted knowing there are things he must correct before he will be ready to contribute, the main one being how handsy he is.  There is nothing coaches hate more than free yards and free first downs from penalties.  

 

So if they feel like Elam isn't there yet and Benford is, they will start Benford.  There is also the possibility neither of them starts week 1 if Tre is ready and they go with Dane and Tre as the starters to begin the season.  

 

And at the end of the day, both started a preseason game and had a solid day against a first team offense despite not even having the first team defense around them.  So its a good problem to have when you have a 6th rounder out producing his draft position and pushing for playing time.  Elam may need more time before they trust him out there, its not a big deal. 

Whether it’s an obsession or whatever you want to call it, it still is a surprise if a 6th round pick is outperforming the 1st round pick.  Beane put Elam in the category of a player they placed a 1st round grade on.  The Bills did not grade Benford in that category.  So I agree that if Benford is already outperforming his 6th round grade versus our 1st rounder, that’s great, but I get this being a topic of discussion.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Booth was a hugely popular pick on these boards during the draft. Did he run more man or zone at Clemson? It’s interesting the Bills didn’t have a first round grade on him, but that could’ve been due to his injury history.

 

Clemson's D used him like we use Tre. It was primarily a zone scheme but they played bits of man and would sometimes man Booth up and play zone around him. 

[FilthyBeast]

20 minutes ago, White Linen said:

McD is truly impressive at coaching DB's.  

 

No doubt about that but will see how much it matters given the ridiculous amount high end QB/WR matchups we face in the first 8 weeks.

 

Have a feeling this secondary is going to struggle big time and we might find ourselves in a lot of shoot outs early.

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Whether it’s an obsession or whatever you want to call it, it still is a surprise if a 6th round pick is outperforming the 1st round pick.  Beane put Elam in the category of a player they placed a 1st round grade on.  The Bills did not grade Benford in that category.  So I agree that if Benford is already outperforming his 6th round grade versus our 1st rounder, that’s great, but I get this being a topic of discussion.

 

Most rookies are not ready to start week 1, even the ones that do.  Usually when a rookie starts week 1 its most often because they don't have a better option ready.  

 

We are in a situation where our all pro may not be ready week 1, so its likely in that case a rookie is forced to start week 1 they may not have started otherwise.  And when you draft a guy that has some technique things you need to correct, especially being handsy as a DB in the flag happy NFL, then its not exactly a crisis though if he isn't showing he is magically ready for that week 1.  I mean he has had very limited reps going full speed with pads on in this highly reduced era of camp and preseason contact.  Its not shocking he needs more reps first, especially since he has been battling some amazing WR's in camp.

 

So I get there is something to discuss here, but to me, the story here isn't that Elam is still working on the very things we already knew he had to work on, its that a 6th round pick is proving to be better than people thought given he was a 6th round pick.  And thats a good thing, not a bad thing.   

 

Now if this was 2023 and we are still talking about Elam not being ready I will start getting concerned about him.  

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

This same rationale was used in 2006 when John McCargo flopped out of the league and Kyle Williams played well.  Sure, it's great that they get a starting player but missing on 1st rounders and claiming that's acceptable for the aforementioned reason isn't enough.  Not when the HC is from that side of the ball and has significant input into drafting that player.   

 

McD's big thing is secondary and he's invested a ton there. 

 

A ton of what? Certainly not draft capital. They have only spent two picks in the first 3 rounds on DBs since McDermott arrived (although they were both 1st rounders). Compare that to the investment on the defensive line. And while they have paid White, Poyer and Hyde only White is getting close to top of the market money. Poyer and Hyde were mid level FA acquisitions. 

 

I agree on missing first rounders btw, never a good thing. Elam played pretty well last weekend I don't think from what I have seen it is a case of him flopping so much as Benford has really shone. I thought he was the Bills best player in game 1. If we get towards the business end of the season and Elam can't get on the field over a 6th rounder and former 7th rounder that will be grounds to worry.

Edited August 18, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Ya Digg?]

Is Benford facing the same receivers that Elam is facing on a daily basis?  Is he winning matchups against Diggs and Davis at a greater rate than Elam is?  Or is Benford doing better against our 5-10 WR while Elam is struggling against our #1 and #2 receiver?

 

These are honest questions (perhaps ones that have been already asked and dealt with, but I'm just seeing this topic and it's already 6 pages long) because they both looked good at times in that first preseason game and they both showed things they need to work on still from that first game

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Poyer and Hyde were mid level FA acquisitions. 

 

They were also both signed by Doug Whaley while McDermott was still picking out furniture for his office, so it's questionable whether they even count as McD capital.

[Punching Bag]

5 hours ago, uninja said:

Diggs has regularly made the top CBs in the league look utterly silly the last 2 years. We're expecting our first round pick to be prime Revis first day of camp? Come on.

 

If one DB is going to be prime-adiva Revis I hope WR practicing against him is ghost of Stevie Johnson who made Revis look silly.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

They were also both signed by Doug Whaley while McDermott was still picking out furniture for his office, so it's questionable whether they even count as McD capital.

 

I mean I don't believe Whaley was picking anyone that spring. He was a dead man walking. 

[Punching Bag]

4 hours ago, BillsClinton said:

Nate Peterman, a 5th round draft pick, outplayed 1st round Josh Allen in the 2018 preseason. 

 

Incorrect.  OC thought he could execute system better, a system which was crappy.  He doubled down on P5t5rman and was let go.

[Simon]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I mean I don't believe Whaley was picking anyone that spring. He was a dead man walking. 

 

He continued to be actively involved in every aspect of the organization in the same way he'd always been right up until he was fired.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

He continued to be actively involved in every aspect of the organization in the same way he'd always been right up until he was fired.

 

Really? I mean they wouldn't even let him do the pre-draft meetings with journos they sent McDermott out to it. He made zero public appearances between Sean's presser and the day they fired him.

 

If you have information to the contrary fair enough but it doesn't seem to line up with their public actions.

[Simon]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

Really? I mean they wouldn't even let him do the pre-draft meetings with journos they sent McDermott out to it. He made zero public appearances between Sean's presser and the day they fired him.

 

He's well aware of the fact that he's not a good interview/public speaker and was amenable to not having to do it any more.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Incorrect.  OC thought he could execute system better, a system which was crappy.  He doubled down on P5t5rman and was let go.

 

That OC had gone by the 2018 pre-season. Peterman didn't outplay Josh though. He outplayed AJ McCarron. The Bills really, really wanted Josh to sit for a bit. They knew how raw he was. Unfortunately they screwed the pooch a bit (wanted Case Keenum ironically and missed on him, ended up with McCarrob who sucked and Peterman ended up starting) and by half time week 1 it was abundently clear that a raw Josh Allen was still closer to competent than the other two. 

 

I reckon if Brian Daboll had his choice Josh would have started week 1 of 2018. Beane and McDermott wanted him to sit.

[FireChans]

46 minutes ago, MJS said:

There aren't 3 starting outside corners. There are only 2.

Tre White is hurt lmao

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

5 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Speculation that 6th rounder Benford is outplaying 1st rounder Elam in camp

 

 

[bigK14094]

5 hours ago, hemma said:

I wonder who gets Kupp.

sTaron Johnson

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

No doubt about that but will see how much it matters given the ridiculous amount high end QB/WR matchups we face in the first 8 weeks.

 

Have a feeling this secondary is going to struggle big time and we might find ourselves in a lot of shoot outs early.

If Hyde and Poyer are healthy and playing like they have been the past 5 seasons I think the secondary will be fine. After Tre went out last season the CB play with Levi Wallace and Dane on the outside was not bad. Granted they didn’t play any barn burning offenses beside Tampa Bay (whom they got smoked in the first half but played well in the second half.) The secondary still played well.

 

I also think Dane with some starts and another camp under his belt and the rookies coming in should be better than what the team played without White last season when Dane was less experienced and Levi Wallace was limited athletically.

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

6 hours ago, hemma said:

I wonder who gets Kupp.

Probably some combination of zones and double coverage in man to man situations.  The Rams are very good at using formations and motion to get the match ups that they want.  Bills are very good at hiding their coverage pre-snap, even when facing motion and different formations.  It should be a good game of "cat and mouse".

The pass rush will be the key to the Bills defense.

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

maybe we drafted the wrong Elam…

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Is this a bad thing or a good thing? I mean unless Benford is playing bad then I consider this a very good thing.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Dr. Who]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Is this a bad thing or a good thing? I mean unless Benford is playing bad then I consider this a very good thing.

Folks got tired of talking about the punter.