Challenge Specialist for McDermott

[Heavy Kevi]

Watching Davis' (non)TD today, and the announcers talking about McD's abysmal challenge ratio, I got to thinking. Should McDermott hire a person who's job is only to be the Challenge Specialist? This person would basically tell McD when to challenge, and when not to.

 

Does this position exist already (in Buffalo or somewhere else), and if not why?

 

To me a leader recognizes his weaknesses and delegates those tasks. Clearly knowing when to challenge is a weak spot for McD, and turning around his challenge ratio would be huge.

[r00tabaga]

I don’t know if a challenge is worth it there it’s first and goal from the one.

[Codyny13]

6 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

I don’t know if a challenge is worth it there it’s first and goal from the one.

It’s always worth it on a scoring play. Not challenging cost them 4 points. That being said, I feel like there should be someone in NY that sees that immediately and calls in and says TD. I don’t know why this doesn’t happen.

[JGMcD2]

Every team employs someone in this role

[Freddie's Dead]

6 minutes ago, r00tabaga said:

I don’t know if a challenge is worth it there it’s first and goal from the one.

 

And that's the argument for not challenging.  The Bills also went hurry up to prevent the 'bags from substituting, so the coaching staff had little time to review the replay.  Unfortunately Dabollocks called two very bad plays.  The first play should have been the QB sneak.  Instead we went backwards and settled for the FG rather than going for it.

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, JGMcD2 said:

Every team employs someone in this role

We need a change then

[Fixxxer]

If the challenge especialist doesn't have enough camera angles to look at plays, the job would be irrelevant. On that Davis TD, Davis himself should have been the one asking McD to throw the red flag. 

 

I liked that McD called out the refs on that illegal formation they missed on one of the TD drives. Can't believe they didn't call that penalty.l  

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I believe the Davis TD was too risky to challenge. We couldn’t lose the TO, and odds were really good we could punch it in. Hindsight is 20-20.

[Heavy Kevi]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

We need a change then

 

Yes I would agree- if we have one, he or she needs to be replaced.

11 minutes ago, Codyny13 said:

It’s always worth it on a scoring play. Not challenging cost them 4 points. That being said, I feel like there should be someone in NY that sees that immediately and calls in and says TD. I don’t know why this doesn’t happen.

 

Sure, but it was NY who gave Knox's catch to the DB as an INT 🤷

 

It was clear and obvious Davis' foot didn't go OOB, but it was also clear that simultaneous catch goes to the receiver, so...

[JohnNord]

I think the Bills do have someone for that role.  It was weird, we never got any kind of replay on TV and Davis didn’t really gesture like he was close so is it possible that it just flew under the radar.

On TV, we didn’t even hear it was close until after the commercial break when they showed the relay.  Brock Huard said that McDermott was gunshy because of his poor record with challenges and didnt want to risk losing a TO in what could have been a close game.  I hope that wasn’t the case.

 

it would be a good question to ask McDermott

[PromoTheRobot]

27 minutes ago, Heavy Kevi said:

Watching Davis' (non)TD today, and the announcers talking about McD's abysmal challenge ratio, I got to thinking. Should McDermott hire a person who's job is only to be the Challenge Specialist? This person would basically tell McD when to challenge, and when not to.

 

Does this position exist already (in Buffalo or somewhere else), and if not why?

 

To me a leader recognizes his weaknesses and delegates those tasks. Clearly knowing when to challenge is a weak spot for McD, and turning around his challenge ratio would be huge.

 

Well even the TV crew had no idea until it was too late. If Fox can't get a replay up quick enough, how are you supposed to know? Bills don't have a private video feed.

[Rochesterfan]

Just now, JohnNord said:

I think the Bills do have someone for that role.  It was weird, we never got any kind of replay on TV and Davis didn’t really gesture like he was close so is it possible that it just flew under the radar.

On TV, we didn’t even hear it was close until after the commercial break when they showed the relay.  Brock Huard said that McDermott was gunshy because of his poor record with challenges and didnt want to risk losing a TO in what could have been a close game.  I hope that wasn’t the case.

 

it would be a good question to ask McDermott

 

Agreed - they have someone in that role, but as Davis never acted like it was a TD - I doubt that they scoured looking for replays.  
 

Typically the player starts the process by making some kind of act like you scored or for a catch/Int - you signal to the coach.  Then the coach gets the guy on the head set trying to find out if they have an angle because that is the key.  
 

McDermott ha been burned several times on challenges that look good and the NFL has stuck to the ruling on the field.  My guess is they had that same feeling with that play.  His feet were in bounds, but the camera angle was from behind and to the side not down the line and Davis did not appear to significantly reach the ball inside the pylon.

 

My understanding from the off season is they have both a guy looking at the play and an analytics guy to work that function.

[QLBillsFan]

Agree. The TV crew had the benefit of time to look at it. I think it was 50:50 call. Might have been on 1 ft line. Hard to bust  McClappy on that one🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited November 9, 2020 by QLBillsFan

[Doc]

After they refused to say Brown scored a TD against the Raiders, I doubt he would have won this challenge.

[Alphadawg7]

59 minutes ago, Heavy Kevi said:

Watching Davis' (non)TD today, and the announcers talking about McD's abysmal challenge ratio, I got to thinking. Should McDermott hire a person who's job is only to be the Challenge Specialist? This person would basically tell McD when to challenge, and when not to.

 

Does this position exist already (in Buffalo or somewhere else), and if not why?

 

To me a leader recognizes his weaknesses and delegates those tasks. Clearly knowing when to challenge is a weak spot for McD, and turning around his challenge ratio would be huge.

Ok I will do it 

[BillsShredder83]

50 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Every team employs someone in this role

How in the fudge are my drunk friends better at making these judgement calls. We all said and saw the same thing. The guy in the booth would ATLEAST have access to the normal game stream. Which was pretty freaking obvious. Hopefully somehow this serves as a wakeup call to these guys. Inexcusable really

[JGMcD2]

9 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

How in the fudge are my drunk friends better at making these judgement calls. We all said and saw the same thing. The guy in the booth would ATLEAST have access to the normal game stream. Which was pretty freaking obvious. Hopefully somehow this serves as a wakeup call to these guys. Inexcusable really

I mean part of it is you have absolutely no idea what the referees are going to come up with as an answer. Nothing is clear. We could’ve challenged the play today and the call could’ve been a TD. Next week we’d challenge the same call and it would be out at the 1. 
 

It’s so inconsistent. It has nothing to do with what they think, it starts to become what do the refs think. I’m sure they felt 1st and Goal at the 2 wasn’t worth potentially losing a challenge and timeout at that point in the game. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Correct me if I'm wrong, bu they never showed the view of Davis feet until after they had already kicked the field goal. 

 

Generally what the views they show on TV are the same as the ones in the stadium and in any coaches booth.  The coaches don't have some magical access to call up camera angles at their request, it's all on the TV broadcast to show the other views. 

 

There was also no recognition by Davis that "Hey I scored" which isn't surprising as a receiver is going to be looking down at his own feet in a situation like that and to know I kept my heal off the ground.  At that point all he was looking at was the flag.

 

As was also pointed out the Bills were in hurry up mode at that point as they wanted to run two bad play calls quickly.  If that hadn't been the case, maybe the replay from that angle would have been shown right away.

 

There certainly have been legit times to criticize McD for his challenges, but this time without showing a camera angle, can't see how he's at fault here.

[Mr. WEO]

need to bring back the guy on the right

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[TBBills]

1 hour ago, Heavy Kevi said:

Watching Davis' (non)TD today, and the announcers talking about McD's abysmal challenge ratio, I got to thinking. Should McDermott hire a person who's job is only to be the Challenge Specialist? This person would basically tell McD when to challenge, and when not to.

 

Does this position exist already (in Buffalo or somewhere else), and if not why?

 

To me a leader recognizes his weaknesses and delegates those tasks. Clearly knowing when to challenge is a weak spot for McD, and turning around his challenge ratio would be huge.

Not one person posted until after the replay about it. What we need are Refs that don't suck at their jobs.

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

need to bring back the guy on the right

 

 

Why b.c he is good at picking his nose?

[Cheektowaga Chad]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

need to bring back the guy on the right

 

Is that the reverend that rex had doing this very job?

[Jerome007]

56 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

Agree. The TV crew had the benefit of time to look at it. I think it was 50:50 call. Might have been on 1 ft line. Hard to bust  McClappy on that one🤷🏻‍♂️

Bills were on offense so can control how fast they snap it after. Basically, they can wait for the TV replay unless the TV crew screws up or time is an issue.

 

To say it's not that important as it's 1st and goal... it removed 4 points. 

 

Anyway, what a play by Davies! We saw some amazing athleticism today. Some by Josh and co, and some jaw dropping passes by Wilson and Metcalf is the real deal. I kept hearing about him but didn't expect his size! He's almost built like a TE. White was battered and beat like he never has been in his career... and then made the pick to avenge himself in style.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, r00tabaga said:

I don’t know if a challenge is worth it there it’s first and goal from the one.

We lost 4 points. It's more than worth it. We've discussed McD hiring some kind of "time management" person and this would be a decent idea. But HC's have egos and are stubborn so I doubt it ever happens. 

[Mr. WEO]

26 minutes ago, TBBills said:

Not one person posted until after the replay about it. What we need are Refs that don't suck at their jobs.

Why b.c he is good at picking his nose?

nope.  The “Chaplin” has the required experience 

[QLBillsFan]

All good points. Not wanting to make excuses for a business that could certainly afford a dedicated person in that role. But I think live it didn’t look TD nor did Davis act like it should be challenged. I’ll grant you we need to be better at the process (dare I use the word) of Bills challenges. And Davis was a hell of a 4th round pick!!!

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Tough spot for McD on that one.  Ref was right there and Davis was angling out of bounds.  They tried to catch them with a quick snap with linemen that would have to pass rush then jog 20 + yards and get in position to defend the goal line.  I have no problem with the hurry up there.  

Not sure why he didn't challenge the spot on the 3rd down catch by Diggs.  Probably would not have been overturned but why burn a timeout instead of the challenge.  Either way the worst that happens is a lost timeout and down to one challenge with minimal clock left before the 2 min warning when you can't use challenges anyways.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, r00tabaga said:

I don’t know if a challenge is worth it there it’s first and goal from the one.

 

Well, we have had drives where we were first and goal from short, and have not gotten it in

 

We have caused such drives to other teams with our defense

 

Since we were ahead, I guess I can see wanting to conserve on a challenge at that point, but I wished McD would have challenged it

[Nextmanup]

8 hours ago, Heavy Kevi said:

Watching Davis' (non)TD today, and the announcers talking about McD's abysmal challenge ratio, I got to thinking. Should McDermott hire a person who's job is only to be the Challenge Specialist? This person would basically tell McD when to challenge, and when not to.

 

Does this position exist already (in Buffalo or somewhere else), and if not why?

 

To me a leader recognizes his weaknesses and delegates those tasks. Clearly knowing when to challenge is a weak spot for McD, and turning around his challenge ratio would be huge.

I have always assumed every team in the league has a "challenge process" in place which does hinge on specific people performing specific duties during the game.

 

There is no way a HC can do it all himself, at least not very well.  

 

If the Bills aren't already doing that, yes, they certainly should implement such a procedure.

 

 

 

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

8 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

Every team employs someone in this role

That person needs a new 'Magic 8 Ball'?

[JMF2006]

Even if he challenges he probably still loses it.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by JMF2006

[machine gun kelly]

9 hours ago, Heavy Kevi said:

Watching Davis' (non)TD today, and the announcers talking about McD's abysmal challenge ratio, I got to thinking. Should McDermott hire a person who's job is only to be the Challenge Specialist? This person would basically tell McD when to challenge, and when not to.

 

Does this position exist already (in Buffalo or somewhere else), and if not why?

 

To me a leader recognizes his weaknesses and delegates those tasks. Clearly knowing when to challenge is a weak spot for McD, and turning around his challenge ratio would be huge.

Every team in the league has analytics guys/gals, and that is part of their job.  They also run the numbers of when to go for it on 4th and short, etc.

[Doc Brown]

7 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, bu they never showed the view of Davis feet until after they had already kicked the field goal. 

 

Generally what the views they show on TV are the same as the ones in the stadium and in any coaches booth.  The coaches don't have some magical access to call up camera angles at their request, it's all on the TV broadcast to show the other views. 

 

There was also no recognition by Davis that "Hey I scored" which isn't surprising as a receiver is going to be looking down at his own feet in a situation like that and to know I kept my heal off the ground.  At that point all he was looking at was the flag.

 

As was also pointed out the Bills were in hurry up mode at that point as they wanted to run two bad play calls quickly.  If that hadn't been the case, maybe the replay from that angle would have been shown right away.

 

There certainly have been legit times to criticize McD for his challenges, but this time without showing a camera angle, can't see how he's at fault here.

I agree with all of this but will just add that not having 73k fans may have played a factor here as they usually show the replay on the stadium big screen immediately after a play.  I'm not sure they do the same without fans there. Even a few boos may have raised some eyebrows on the Bills sidelines.

[thenorthremembers]

They have to figure something out because statistically he is the worst coach in the league when it comes to challenges and its not close.  Last time I checked he was somewhere around an 11% success rate.

[r00tabaga]

8 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

We lost 4 points. It's more than worth it. We've discussed McD hiring some kind of "time management" person and this would be a decent idea. But HC's have egos and are stubborn so I doubt it ever happens. 

If they would’ve punched it in this would be such an afterthought. Hindsight is always 2020.....ooops 20/20 🙅‍♂️🤣😂🤣

[Codyny13]

10 hours ago, Heavy Kevi said:

 

Yes I would agree- if we have one, he or she needs to be replaced.

 

Sure, but it was NY who gave Knox's catch to the DB as an INT 🤷

 

It was clear and obvious Davis' foot didn't go OOB, but it was also clear that simultaneous catch goes to the receiver, so...

I think you’re talking about the Kroft play, which I agree, it was a bad call, but the reason it was automatically reviewed was bc it was a turnover, as are all scoring plays. Since they didn’t call this one a touchdown, it’s on us to do so.  That being said,  I think there’s gotta be a competent person in NY that can determine when a ball breaks the goal line plane. No rule interpretation needed there.

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, JMF2006 said:

Even if he challenges he probably still loses it.

 

 

 

I think this is correct.  The video shows he did not step out of bounds, but the video does not show the ball inside the pylon.  He moves it left and it might go over it, but based upon that shot - the NFL is very likely to stay with the call on the field - they may adjust the spot, but if they do not rule it a TD - it is still a loss challenge and a lost timeout.

[benderbender]

10 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

McDermott has been burned several times on challenges that look good and the NFL has stuck to the ruling on the field. 

This. Our team specifically has historically been discriminated against. Last years Texans playoff games two overturned calls by New York, the Rams INT (which, by rule, had to be a fumble in order for possession to change because an INT couldn’t be simultaneous possession and should be petitioned to be asterisked in the stats), and other examples that escape me at the moment. 

 

Part of me feels that McDermott doesn’t want to waste time outs on things that are out of his control and, most times, seem to defy logic. Similar to challenging a basketball foul which is the most subjective in sports. The other part knows that McDermott more importantly is a no excuses type coach. He seems to understand better than fans that bad calls are a part of the game. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I agree with all of this but will just add that not having 73k fans may have played a factor here as they usually show the replay on the stadium big screen immediately after a play.  I'm not sure they do the same without fans there. Even a few boos may have raised some eyebrows on the Bills sidelines.

 

I think they are showing replaying on the scoreboard as there was some other game earlier, not even a Bills game, but the announcers were commenting that they could see the coach was looking at the scoreboard screen to decide whether to challenge or not.  But even then the scoreboard views come from the TV camera crew provides them.

[ColoradoBills]

4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I think this is correct.  The video shows he did not step out of bounds, but the video does not show the ball inside the pylon.  He moves it left and it might go over it, but based upon that shot - the NFL is very likely to stay with the call on the field - they may adjust the spot, but if they do not rule it a TD - it is still a loss challenge and a lost timeout.

 

Which is why having a better person/team watching and advising McDermott is needed IMO.

The challenge should not have been about the TD it should of been about the "spot".

That would have not resulted in a loss Timeout even if they did not rule it a TD.

 

McDermott has done a fantastic job coaching this team BUT this "challenge" problem should be addressed.

They need someone who is training to be an "expert" on red flag challenges in the booth and a better system getting that info to Sean.

Edited November 9, 2020 by ColoradoBills

[JGMcD2]

1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Which is why having a better person/team watching and advising McDermott is needed IMO.

The challenge should not have been about the TD it should of been about the "spot".

That would have not resulted in a loss Timeout even if the did not rule it a TD.

 

McDermott has done a fantastic job coaching this team BUT this "challenge" problem should be addressed.

They need someone who is training to be an "expert" on red flag challenges in the booth and a better system getting that info to Sean.

They do have this. Every professional sports team that operates in a league where replay challenges exist, has someone who fills this role. It may not be in the job title, but there is someone with the responsibilities included in their job description. 
 

The issue is the consistency of the league IMO. Look at the other thread today about the Marcus Peters interception. It doesn’t even make sense anymore.