"Late" hit on Allen's slide.

[Big Turk]

57 minutes ago, wagon127 said:

The 4th quarter unnecessary roughness penalty on the Steeelers.

 

Look, im glad the bills won, and any penalty the Bills get in their favor, I feel is great, after 17 years of us seeing other teams benefit from bad calls. But the NFL needs to really evaluate whats considered a late hit on a QB slide. I really dont think he was hit late on that. I think as Allen starts to slide, the defender has pretty much already left his feet. Allen is still sliding as he gets hit, showing how "not late" it was. 

 

What do you guys think? Not just thinking about it from the Bills point of view, but football in general. 

 

No. You don't get it, just like so many others don't seem to get it.

 

The rule is that if a defender is in the process of making a tackle and THEN the QB slides, it isn't a penalty, aka, a late slide. That is what happens the majority of the times when no flag is thrown. 

 

How can a defender be expected to stop mid tackle? He can't, which is why that's not a penalty.

 

If you watch the replay, and I have many times, Allen slides, THEN the defender goes in to tackle him.

 

That's a penalty 100/100 times. He didn't start his motion to tackle until Allen has already started sliding. It was a dumb play and one that's getting called almost every time. There was no reason to make that tackle attempt once Allen had started sliding.

Edited January 16 by Big Turk

[BADOLBILZ]

12 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

Wasn’t that play pretty identical to roughing penalty on Bills in Dallas game when Prescott slid?  Tough on the defense but it is what it is.

 

 

It's not even tough on the defense..........there really aren't many instances when a player can't at least attempt to pull up and not drop their helmet/shoulder at full force into a player who has slid down.

 

When the rules were changed back in 2010 the hitting was absolutely vicious and gratuitous.........and defenders claimed they could never clean it up and still play defense.    

 

The Seahawks would subsequently field one of the best tackling and point-preventing defense's the NFL has ever seen.    

 

It's always possible to clean up the attempts to injure.

 

And that hit on Allen was just a standard, run-of-the-mill attempt to injure the opposing player with a hit that far exceeded the needs of the play.   

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, Meatloaf63 said:

except it doesn’t matter where you hit a sliding qb. They will call any contact especially from the waste up.

Yep it was 100% a penalty, unless you're Justin Fields.

 

The guy didn't try and avoid it at all until after he'd already hit Josh it's a penalty simple as that.

 

What I thought was funny was that Josh basically baited him into all game by running through the Steelers all game.

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

Yep it was 100% a penalty, unless you're Justin Fields.

 

The guy didn't try and avoid it at all until after he'd already hit Josh it's a penalty simple as that.

 

What I thought was funny was that Josh basically baited him into all game by running through the Steelers all game.

 

Most of the Justin Fields clips I've seen AREN'T penalties because the defender is in the process of making a tackle BEFORE Fields slides. That's on him for not sliding earlier before he gets too close and the defender starts his tackle.

 

That is an important distinction to make. If you slide after the defender starts his tackling motion, it's not a penalty. 

 

Allen slid first, then the defender started his tackling motion. That's 100/100 times a penalty 

Edited January 16 by Big Turk

[Dafan]

What makes it late hit for me is that the defender continued to drop his shoulder.  Yes he was already committed lunging at Allen, but he could have attempted to lessen the impact of the hit.

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

except it doesn’t matter where you hit a sliding qb. They will call any contact especially from the waste up.

 

Hitting the helmet off the turf is probably as dangerous as helmet to helmet.  You just know that will get called, although I thought it was a bit slow to come. 

[Freddie's Dead]

1 hour ago, Low Positive said:

What about the RtP on Ed Oliver where Mason Rudolph didn't even fall down?

 

It was a head butt.  I thought same as you in real time, but on replay, it was helmet to helmet.

[CaptnCoke11]

1 hour ago, wagon127 said:

The 4th quarter unnecessary roughness penalty on the Steeelers.

 

Look, im glad the bills won, and any penalty the Bills get in their favor, I feel is great, after 17 years of us seeing other teams benefit from bad calls. But the NFL needs to really evaluate whats considered a late hit on a QB slide. I really dont think he was hit late on that. I think as Allen starts to slide, the defender has pretty much already left his feet. Allen is still sliding as he gets hit, showing how "not late" it was. 

 

What do you guys think? Not just thinking about it from the Bills point of view, but football in general. 

You could tell the defender tried to avoid a huge hit.  I think in those instances the flag shouldn’t be thrown unless it’s egregiously late.  Now helmet to helmet on that kind of play then yes it should be a penalty.  

[GunnerBill]

Clear flag.

[CoudyBills]

1 hour ago, KDIGGZ said:

Josh made it look worse than it was. At some point the refs will know that he flops like LeBron and to be on the lookout for that so then those calls won't go our way. I think he could have saved it on that play

He is on the same level as LeBron James, so he is going to get the calls.  

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Considering he basically began the sliding process at the LOS, then fully initiated after about a yard, and slid at like 3 yards... it was late.  How hard you hit someone late doesn't change hitting someone who has given themself up.  

[KDIGGZ]

11 minutes ago, CoudyBills said:

He is on the same level as LeBron James, so he is going to get the calls.  

I definitely don't agree with that. LeBron is probably the 2nd best player ever or top 5 at worst. Josh is nobody... yet 

[dje85]

1 hour ago, Patrick Fitzryan said:

I really wish he'd cut that out. It's not only incredibly lame, it's completely beneath him given how tough a player he is.

Personally, I don't care about the flops / acting. It means he will do anything to win. I don't care if he does full on Shakespearean drama on the field as long as we are winning and Josh is being Josh.

[CoudyBills]

12 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

I definitely don't agree with that. LeBron is probably the 2nd best player ever or top 5 at worst. Josh is nobody... yet 

A superstar is a superstar

[Big Turk]

51 minutes ago, Dafan said:

What makes it late hit for me is that the defender continued to drop his shoulder.  Yes he was already committed lunging at Allen, but he could have attempted to lessen the impact of the hit.

 

He wasn't. He didn't start his tackle motion until after Allen slid.

[Beck Water]

You can take off the quotes on "late"

[hondo in seattle]

I do worry about wimpifying football. 

 

But under the current rules, I thought it was clearly a penalty.  

[HardyBoy]

22 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

I definitely don't agree with that. LeBron is probably the 2nd best player ever or top 5 at worst. Josh is nobody... yet 

 

LeBron in year six of his career then? 

[WideNine]

I think the defender had enough time to pull up when Allen shifted to a feet-first slide.

 

Instead he loads up the forearm goes towards to upper shoulders and head and he immediately throws up his hands in mock innocence once he follows through.

 

I am sure Allen was not hurt, but defenders know the rules. Those back 7 defenders hate mobile QBs and want to get that hit on them to send that "stay behind the LOS" message.

 

Oliver love tapped Rudolph with a late shove that Rudolph embellished enough to get whiplash and he got a roughing the passer penalty. It is just part of the game and defensive players have to be smart about hitting QBs.

 

WIth Allen they just have to wait a bit, he is sure to plow into their defense head first a few times during the course of a game.

 

 

[msw2112]

When I saw it in real time, I thought it was a penalty for sure.  When I saw it on replay, it did not look like a foul.  I used to be of the mindset that I didn't want my team to benefit from any bad calls - I wanted to win without any questions or doubts.  As I get older, I realize how many bad calls have gone against the Bills, and that people may or may not remember a bad call, but they will always remember who came out on top.  So, if this was a bad call, I'll definitely take it!

 

Also, as to officiating yesterday, I think the first fumble that was reversed in the Bills' favor was an incomplete pass, so a bad call in the the Bills' favor, but the second one that was not reversed was a terrible call.  The player fumbled in bounds, it was not touched by anyone who was out of bounds before touching it, and it was recovered in bounds.  I don't see any rationale for that not being ruled a fumble.  I think it was a makeup call for the questionable one earlier.  I hosted a bunch of people for the game including some noisy children (mine), so I couldn't hear the explanation given by the referee or the follow-up commentary.

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 hour ago, Fetou said:

Was a tremendous job of embellishment too. Really passed the eye test at full speed, but you can see the acting job in slow motion. In my opinion it's a skill, similar to players in the NBA who have greatly enhanced their career by manipulating optics to draw fouls (Harden, Embiid etc)

 

In this case it was a penalty by rule regardless, but it always helps to sell it. Wide receivers should also act like they will never be able to read or write again every time they take a shot while going for a catch. It puts the pressure on the refs to throw the flag or else it appears they aren't protecting the player

It drives me crazy when a Bills’ receiver is interfered with and doesn’t do a good enough job selling it.  Especially when they really were interfered.  So many calls it seems like the refs are trained to throw the flag, so long as the receiver reacts a certain way.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's not even tough on the defense..........there really aren't many instances when a player can't at least attempt to pull up and not drop their helmet/shoulder at full force into a player who has slid down.

 

When the rules were changed back in 2010 the hitting was absolutely vicious and gratuitous.........and defenders claimed they could never clean it up and still play defense.    

 

The Seahawks would subsequently field one of the best tackling and point-preventing defense's the NFL has ever seen.    

 

It's always possible to clean up the attempts to injure.

 

And that hit on Allen was just a standard, run-of-the-mill attempt to injure the opposing player with a hit that far exceeded the needs of the play.   

 

Basically rewrote the bible on it

 

 

 

 

Just now, strive_for_five_guy said:

It drives me crazy when a Bills’ receiver is interfered with and doesn’t do a good enough job selling it.  Especially when they really were interfered.  So many calls it seems like the refs are trained to throw the flag, so long as the receiver reacts a certain way.

 

Yeah, our guys, Knox especially, are too good at fighting through the contact and trying to catch the ball. It's tough to knock them on it, but it has definitely become a part of the pro game. If they could just learn to fall when they feel the push. But tough to teach them to NOT go for the catch.

[bigK14094]

2 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

Josh made it look worse than it was. At some point the refs will know that he flops like LeBron and to be on the lookout for that so then those calls won't go our way. I think he could have saved it on that play

Players all play to the officials.  So many flag gestures after an incomplete pass that its now routine to beg for a call.

[LeGOATski]

2 hours ago, wagon127 said:

The 4th quarter unnecessary roughness penalty on the Steeelers.

 

Look, im glad the bills won, and any penalty the Bills get in their favor, I feel is great, after 17 years of us seeing other teams benefit from bad calls. But the NFL needs to really evaluate whats considered a late hit on a QB slide. I really dont think he was hit late on that. I think as Allen starts to slide, the defender has pretty much already left his feet. Allen is still sliding as he gets hit, showing how "not late" it was. 

 

What do you guys think? Not just thinking about it from the Bills point of view, but football in general. 

Disagree. It was a textbook penalty according to that rule. Josh already sliding when the defender dips his head and puts his forearms into Allen's upper body.

 

For comparison, watch the Rudolph slide where Klein is already lounging at him, but makes the necessary adjustment to stay over the top. 

 

People have too much time on their hands to be complaining about non-issues. 

 

It's like @Zerovoltzcomplaining about a non-existent fake slide. This stuff is so stupid.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, wagon127 said:

The 4th quarter unnecessary roughness penalty on the Steeelers.

 

Look, im glad the bills won, and any penalty the Bills get in their favor, I feel is great, after 17 years of us seeing other teams benefit from bad calls. But the NFL needs to really evaluate whats considered a late hit on a QB slide. I really dont think he was hit late on that. I think as Allen starts to slide, the defender has pretty much already left his feet. Allen is still sliding as he gets hit, showing how "not late" it was. 

 

What do you guys think? Not just thinking about it from the Bills point of view, but football in general. 

 

I don't get what your complaint is, that was text book late hit and flag.  

[cd1]

2 hours ago, Patrick Fitzryan said:

I really wish he'd cut that out. It's not only incredibly lame, it's completely beneath him given how tough a player he is.

But... Do you think he should just "man up" and play tough guy? Would that not send a message to defenders to give it their best shot?

 

Just maybe - Josh is sending a message that "if you mess with me - I will try and make sure you get caught".

 

Maybe Josh is trying to make sure the refs notice.

 

Even with all that - players STILL take cheap shots. I don't know about you guys, but I don't like other teams players taking cheap shots at our players.

Edited January 16 by cd1

[skibum]

It wasn't the worst hit, and Josh is a shameless flopper, but the refs have to call that every time. That could have been a really bad head shot if the timing was just a wee bit different. 

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

If it’s not called it would have been third and two,  most likely get the first anyway.

[Thrivefourfive]

You know what sucks about these threads, this has been going on for over a decade. Now, all the sudden, we have threads on how illegal an illegal hit is on a sliding QB and that fake slide nonsense. 

[1ManRaid]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

It was a bad call because it looked like hit Allen on the head when in fact he never did.

The game is too fast for the on field officials. Every play should be reviewed by an independent ref with video. 

 

4 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

except it doesn’t matter where you hit a sliding qb. They will call any contact especially from the waste up.

 

Yeah I was going to say the QB is ruled down the instant he start his slide so it doesn't matter. 

 

And if the defender supposedly started his hit/left his feet "long before Allen slides", I have to point out that he would have been targeting Allen's knees.  You should NEVER need to leave your feet to make a tackle anyways, it's just bad form.  You lose any ability to let up or protect yourself/others once you go airborne.

[CincyBillsFan]

24 minutes ago, Thrivefourfive said:

You know what sucks about these threads, this has been going on for over a decade. Now, all the sudden, we have threads on how illegal an illegal hit is on a sliding QB and that fake slide nonsense. 

Bingo!  Some posters can't B word about Allen and McD after this game so they find new ways to throw shade on the Bills.

 

 

[1ManRaid]

2 hours ago, cd1 said:

But... Do you think he should just "man up" and play tough guy? Would that not send a message to defenders to give it their best shot?

 

Just maybe - Josh is sending a message that "if you mess with me - I will try and make sure you get caught".

 

Maybe Josh is trying to make sure the refs notice.

 

Even with all that - players STILL take cheap shots. I don't know about you guys, but I don't like other teams players taking cheap shots at our players.

 

About the flopping, it's important to point out Allen only embellishes ACTUALLY ILLEGAL hits.  He's not out there flopping if you look at him the wrong way.  I see it like sure it's possible to depend on the police happening to notice that my store was robbed and do something about it, or I can call the police and bring it to their attention.

[Utah John]

The hit on Josh's slide was borderline, and in those cases it usually gets called.

 

Note that on Josh's TD run, it looked like he might slide at one point, and a defender pulled back, and then Josh kept on going.  I think the fake Josh threw was just a regular fake, not an intention to fake a slide, but the defender played it safe.  

 

For comparison, here's an actual fake slide by none other than the Steelers' QB, Pickett, while in college:

 

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bb0n4pNwBw

Edited January 17 by Utah John

[JoshAllin]

It doesn't matter if its a soft late hit or a hard late hit, a late hit is a late hit. Crying about Allen selling it is usually the difference between the refs calling it or not

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, wagon127 said:

The 4th quarter unnecessary roughness penalty on the Steeelers.

 

Look, im glad the bills won, and any penalty the Bills get in their favor, I feel is great, after 17 years of us seeing other teams benefit from bad calls. But the NFL needs to really evaluate whats considered a late hit on a QB slide. I really dont think he was hit late on that. I think as Allen starts to slide, the defender has pretty much already left his feet. Allen is still sliding as he gets hit, showing how "not late" it was. 

 

What do you guys think? Not just thinking about it from the Bills point of view, but football in general. 

 

 

I thought it could go either way. I couldn't have been upset regardless.

 

I don't think the defender tried to hit him hard. I think Josh probably thought he did try to hit him hard, but I think he dove at him but didn't tighten up and try to strike him at impact.

 

These calls will always lean towards protecting the QB. It's understandable. When a starter is knocked out for the season that basically ends that team's Super Bowl chances, with very rare exceptions. Mason Rudolph is a good example. There are exceptions such as Hostetler, but again, they are very rare and with today's passing rules in place, the Giants might not have won that Hostetler SB.

[jaybills]

10 hours ago, wagon127 said:

The 4th quarter unnecessary roughness penalty on the Steeelers.

 

Look, im glad the bills won, and any penalty the Bills get in their favor, I feel is great, after 17 years of us seeing other teams benefit from bad calls. But the NFL needs to really evaluate whats considered a late hit on a QB slide. I really dont think he was hit late on that. I think as Allen starts to slide, the defender has pretty much already left his feet. Allen is still sliding as he gets hit, showing how "not late" it was. 

 

What do you guys think? Not just thinking about it from the Bills point of view, but football in general. 

Not a late hit. Dude was practically parallel to the ground when Allen initiated his slide. 

[JoshAllin]

You can even see Highsmith throw his hands up as soon as the late hit occurred and he probably told him wtf are you doing man he was down, no need for that late hit

Edited January 17 by motorj

[Pete]

Miles Jack was a dirty player in Jacksonville too.

 

On Shakir sensational TD run, Jack did a huge cheap shot on Diggs.  Jack grabbed Diggs from behind and body slammed him.  Diggs got hurt.  Jack should be suspended without pay to start next season, and fined big today

[Brit]

Miles Jack was so late I thought he was pregnant.

[JoPoy88]

15 hours ago, wagon127 said:

The 4th quarter unnecessary roughness penalty on the Steeelers.

 

Look, im glad the bills won, and any penalty the Bills get in their favor, I feel is great, after 17 years of us seeing other teams benefit from bad calls. But the NFL needs to really evaluate whats considered a late hit on a QB slide. I really dont think he was hit late on that. I think as Allen starts to slide, the defender has pretty much already left his feet. Allen is still sliding as he gets hit, showing how "not late" it was. 

 

What do you guys think? Not just thinking about it from the Bills point of view, but football in general. 

They’re not going to change any rules that potentially endanger QBs. Just not going to happen. You claim Allen is still sliding when contact is made and that shows the hit wasn’t late. The QB is protected once he *begins* his slide. That’s why the ball is spotted where it is on QB slides - at the beginning of the slide. So the hit was, by definition, LATE. And that definition isn’t going to change.