Hines injury...

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

https://theathletic.com/5066291/2023/11/22/nyheim-hines-sea-doo-accident-recovery-bills/?amp=1

All the work he’s put in since he entered the league, the aim being to prolong his prime as long as possible, and then this happens: a freak, untimely accident with grave consequences, one that cost him an entire season and threatened his career.

...

The Bills, unsurprisingly, were not thrilled upon getting word of the accident. Back in the spring, as offseason workouts were finishing up, since-fired offensive coordinator Ken Dorsey had made it clear to general manager Brandon Beane how excited he was to open up more of the playbook to Hines in 2023. It’s what Beane envisioned when he made the deal with the Colts last year, calling Hines a minute before the trade deadline and asking him, “We’re happy to have you, can you be on a flight in three hours?”

The disappointment was evident when Beane met with reporters on the eve of training camp.

“It’s not like I can go out and find another Nyheim Hines,” he said.

Hines had renegotiated his deal with the Bills before the season, landing on a two-year agreement for $9 million through 2024, spreading some incentives — a signing bonus, workout bonuses — out over time. But since the accident occurred away from the team facility, the Bills placed him on the NFI list, which technically doesn’t require the team to pay him anything.

Suddenly, Hines was out millions of dollars.

After months of back-and-forth, the two sides agreed on a smaller sum with which both were comfortable.

“We were both upset, both parties were upset,” Hines says. “I didn’t expect for that to happen. They didn’t expect for this to happen. We both had big plans for myself. And they know I hold myself accountable, and they knew that this is gonna kill me more than it kills them.”

The matter resolved, a sobering lesson learned, Hines expects to pick up where he left off in Buffalo next year.

“They treated me right at the end of the day and they took care of it,” he says, “and I’m a member of the Buffalo Bills and I look forward to coming back there next year and earning the right to win.”

[KingBoots8]

20 minutes ago, streetkings01 said:

Dorsey has no idea how to use anyone outside of Diggs……Hines would be looking just like Harty is looking.

*had

[LABILLBACKER]

I like Hines more than Harty because of his return abilities,  but we now have nearly 19 M wrapped up in 2 players we rarely use. The lack of contribution last season (besides the NE tds) was all on Dorsey. Hopefully he returns at least 90+% next season.  And I'd recommend sueing the crap out of that guy.

[Solomon Grundy]

On 11/6/2023 at 5:26 PM, ngbills said:

Then having Ty Johnson return KO's. Call me confused. 

How in the world can the coaches see Ty Johnson and say lets have him be our kick returner...

Ty Johnson returned kicks for the Jets and was pretty good at it

[mannc]

Hines is the best return man the Bills have ever had, and the team has lost five one-score games.  I don’t understand the argument that he would not have made a difference this year.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

Hines is the best return man the Bills have ever had, and the team has lost five one-score games.  I don’t understand the argument that he would not have made a difference this year.

He played like 5 games. Terrance McGee says stop overreacting. 

[mannc]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

He played like 5 games. Terrance McGee says stop overreacting. 

Hines was a great return man for the Colts for several years and he returns both punts and kickoffs, unlike McGee. The Bills have never had anyone better.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Reading through this thread, people ripping the coaching staff for not using Hines more last year.  The issue was right after the signed Hines, Allen got hurt, then the 1st blizzard happened which canceled a couple of practices.  Recall reading article in early December saying that up till that point, Hines and Allen had only been able to practice together like 2 times.  That to me was the biggest issue with not using him much as a RB.

[BillsShredder83]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

https://theathletic.com/5066291/2023/11/22/nyheim-hines-sea-doo-accident-recovery-bills/?amp=1

I dont believe the 'just getting gas story'. i dont blame him for saying it, im sure his lawyers dont either.  no chance dude is back with us next year. no ill will towards the dude... but the 'prefer to wake board' thing felt like admitting a smaller wrong, to mislead against a bigger wrong. sucks cause were paying him and getting nothing back, but probably the right move as far as playing politics in FA and the lockerroom

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, mannc said:

Hines was a great return man for the Colts for several years and he returns both punts and kickoffs, unlike McGee. The Bills have never had anyone better.

Sorry to derail your overall point of Hines would be a great KR/ PR addition to this team. Fully agree. Just wanted to say how good McGee is because he averaged more yards per KR than Hines and had 3 tds (and the greatest non KR td in nfl history). Also Roscoe had a higher PR average than Hines. 
 

https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?player_id2=HineNy00&player_id1=McGeTe99&request=1&utm_campaign=2023_01_wdgt_player_comparison&utm_source=pfr&utm_medium=sr_xsite&utm_id=McGeTe99

[Dan Darragh]

On 11/6/2023 at 10:57 PM, Hebert19 said:

This is on josh.  

I blame Tyrod.

[Captain Hindsight]

52 minutes ago, mannc said:

Hines is the best return man the Bills have ever had, and the team has lost five one-score games.  I don’t understand the argument that he would not have made a difference this year.

Agree with him being a difference maker, don't agree on best return man. That goes to McGee

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Freddie's Dead said:

These threads make me laugh, especially since we ran McKittrick outta town on a rail. We're paying three guys instead of one, and for less production.  McBeane ***** up big time on these guys. 

 

 

It's not like they were replacing McKenzie...........he was trash.    Just too many dumb mistakes.   Agree with the overall sentiment that Harty has been a bust of a signing so far and that he and Hines were both vastly overpaid for what they can bring to the table.   But Lil' Dummy has continued to be awful in Indy.   7.5 yards per reception is BRUTAL.   2 fumbles(again) on just 35 combined touches on ST and offense.  

[Freddie's Dead]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's not like they were replacing McKenzie...........he was trash.    Just too many dumb mistakes.   Agree with the overall sentiment that Harty has been a bust of a signing so far and that he and Hines were both vastly overpaid for what they can bring to the table.   But Lil' Dummy has continued to be awful in Indy.   7.5 yards per reception is BRUTAL.   2 fumbles(again) on just 35 combined touches on ST and offense.  

 

Dave Mason time.

[BADOLBILZ]

48 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

I dont believe the 'just getting gas story'. i dont blame him for saying it, im sure his lawyers dont either.  no chance dude is back with us next year. no ill will towards the dude... but the 'prefer to wake board' thing felt like admitting a smaller wrong, to mislead against a bigger wrong. sucks cause were paying him and getting nothing back, but probably the right move as far as playing politics in FA and the lockerroom

 

 

Yeah I don't want to hear any BS from a player that gets himself hurt skiing, motorcycling or on a jet ski etc..    You f*ck around and you should find out.   100% self accountability.   It's your representatives job to try to get you paid but the bottom line is you took an unnecessary risk.   It's audacious to expect the team to pay you anything for getting hurt when you are f*cking off.   That's what being properly insured for your level of risk is for.

[zow2]

Right after the accident news became public i said Hines would never play for the Bills again.  We shall see.  It sounds like there’s a chance.  Buffalo needs more than a punt and kickoff catcher of the ball.  Not sure that other RBs don’t pass him by.

[mannc]

24 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Agree with him being a difference maker, don't agree on best return man. That goes to McGee

As I pointed out, McGee did not return punts.  And Hines is just as good as McGee as a KO returner.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I like Hines more than Harty because of his return abilities,  but we now have nearly 19 M wrapped up in 2 players we rarely use. The lack of contribution last season (besides the NE tds) was all on Dorsey. Hopefully he returns at least 90+% next season.  And I'd recommend sueing the crap out of that guy.

im curious to see if harty gets more touches and snaps. I definitely noticed the little her sweep. Not a big gainer but the type of play where continued motion and misdirection when used schematically can create challenges.

 

instead of an isolated play, I think Brady will actually work in packages off that-obviously running off the motion, play actions, and Andy Reid likes that play where the jet starts and then at the snap whips back to where they came from which is challenging on the fly. 
 

im optimistic this will be the start of scheming more than individual plays and guys like harty will ramp up.

[FireChans]

56 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah I don't want to hear any BS from a player that gets himself hurt skiing, motorcycling or on a jet ski etc..    You f*ck around and you should find out.   100% self accountability.   It's your representatives job to try to get you paid but the bottom line is you took an unnecessary risk.   It's audacious to expect the team to pay you anything for getting hurt when you are f*cking off.   That's what being properly insured for your level of risk is for.

I don’t understand why these athletes don’t take out gigantic insurance policies for stuff like this.

 

just seems prudent.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Harty was signed at 2yr 5M per year to be the starting slot. That's why Beane loosened his purse strings.

 

For whatever reason, perhaps moving to a 12 which takes a receiver off the field or the rise of shakir, he is not getting alot of opportunities. Could be dorseys play calling too.

 

Clearly at this point he's a FA bust.

 

Sherfield was brought in to be a backup to Diggs or Davis. Sherfield hasn't been bad, just not alot of opportunities as Davis and Diggs rarely come off the field.

 

As far as Hines, losing his explosion on KR has hurt. 

 

But he would most likely be a backup to Cook at this point.

 

Bills still needed a power RB for short yardage situations on 3rd or 4th down hence the Murray or Fournette signings.

 

It would be nice to line up Murray on 4th and short running behind Gilliam but strangely the bills continue to run shotgun on short yardage situations 

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Harty was signed at 2yr 5M per year to be the starting slot. That's why Beane loosened his purse strings.

 

For whatever reason, perhaps moving to a 12 which takes a receiver off the field or the rise of shakir, he is not getting alot of opportunities. Could be dorseys play calling too.

 

Clearly at this point he's a FA bust.

 

Sherfield was brought in to be a backup to Diggs or Davis. Sherfield hasn't been bad, just not alot of opportunities as Davis and Diggs rarely come off the field.

 

As far as Hines, losing his explosion on KR has hurt. 

 

But he would most likely be a backup to Cook at this point.

 

Bills still needed a power RB for short yardage situations on 3rd or 4th down hence the Murray or Fournette signings.

 

It would be nice to line up Murray on 4th and short running behind Gilliam but strangely the bills continue to run shotgun on short yardage situations 

See if he was signed to start at the slot, I think that’s a total whiff.

 

Harty is a gadget guy. That’s where he made his name. 
 

Sure he had one year with 500 yards, but he was the Saints #2 WR in targets with a horrific group. Somebody has to catch the ball. 
 

the next year was cut short due to injury, but he was immediately relegated to a nothing role regardless. 4 games, two targets. 
 

Who were we bidding against for a guy like that? Furthermore, what was his envisioned role with Hines healthy and cemented at return duties? 
 

Did we really pay that for a guy with one statistically mediocre season to be a starter? To be the backup return man? 
 

Neither makes sense. Total gaffe.

[Mikie2times]

[eSJayDee]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I don’t understand why these athletes don’t take out gigantic insurance policies for stuff like this.

 

just seems prudent.

Probably cuz they're gigantic expensive.  I used to work in an industry (Commodity Trading Advisor) where we're potentially liable for substantial amounts of $.  We looked into insurance & it was highly imprudent given the probability of a liability.  How often does something like this happen?  Very seldom.  Also, good luck getting a payout.  You think insurance companies will just hand out a 6 or 7 figure amount w/o some legal fight to try to weasel out of it.

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I don’t understand why these athletes don’t take out gigantic insurance policies for stuff like this.

 

just seems prudent.

Probably cuz they're gigantic expensive.  I used to work in an industry (Commodity Trading Advisor) where we're potentially liable for substantial amounts of $.  We looked into insurance & it was highly imprudent given the probability of a liability.  How often does something like this happen?  Very seldom.  Also, good luck getting a payout.  You think insurance companies will just hand out a 6 or 7 figure amount w/o some legal fight to try to weasel out of it.

[billsfan89]

Harty has been a solid punt returner but there is virtually no kickoff return game. I think Hines would have been an upgrade to both return games maybe 1-2 big ST plays would have helped in the Broncos or Pats losses? As far as using Hines as a third-down back on offense I don't think they really knew how to use him effectively. 

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, eSJayDee said:

Probably cuz they're gigantic expensive.  I used to work in an industry (Commodity Trading Advisor) where we're potentially liable for substantial amounts of $.  We looked into insurance & it was highly imprudent given the probability of a liability.  How often does something like this happen?  Very seldom.  Also, good luck getting a payout.  You think insurance companies will just hand out a 6 or 7 figure amount w/o some legal fight to try to weasel out of it.

Probably cuz they're gigantic expensive.  I used to work in an industry (Commodity Trading Advisor) where we're potentially liable for substantial amounts of $.  We looked into insurance & it was highly imprudent given the probability of a liability.  How often does something like this happen?  Very seldom.  Also, good luck getting a payout.  You think insurance companies will just hand out a 6 or 7 figure amount w/o some legal fight to try to weasel out of it.

Are they more expensive that losing $5M of guaranteed income?

[eSJayDee]

39 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Are they more expensive that losing $5M of guaranteed income?

I doubt it.  But... that income is not entirely guaranteed.  Also, he does still have to work for it.  Further, one could argue the $ isn't really "lost", merely delayed, or at least this is partially the case.  ie he chooses to work 4 more yrs.  Does it really matter if it's '23-'26 or '24 thru '27?

As for what I expect the "math" to be like (this is just a hypothetical I'm basically pulling out my butt, IDK real numbers) - imagine you're a "regular" wage earning & you're presented w/ a "tenuous" opportunity to earn $1m/yr for "a few yrs".  That $1m is ~$600k after taxes.  How anxious would you be to pay $100-$200k (presumably not tax deductible) to insure said income, knowing that a) only a handful of the ~2000 players/yr end up missing out on a similar opportunity due to circumstances you want to insure against and b) collecting said payout in the event it's warranted, will possibly (likely?) involve a (costly) legal battle w/ no actual assurances that you'll indeed collect.

Not saying no one insures themselves for such circumstances, but I suspect it's not so dumb (& likely prudent) to actually make a decision NOT to insure.

[H2o]

9 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

These threads make me laugh, especially since we ran McKittrick outta town on a rail. We're paying three guys instead of one, and for less production.  McBeane ***** up big time on these guys. 

McNugget has a grand total of 11 catches for 82 yards on a WR depleted team. He has 4 KO returns averaging 25 yds a pop and 18 PR averaging 9 yds a pop. Deonte Harty's contract is an easy out next year at $1.3M in dead money. Hines can be cut for $500K. Oh no! $2M in dead money! Ahhhhhhhh! Nothing about this situation is Beane messing anything up "big time" at all. Yeah, it's really quite the opposite. 

[BigAl2526]

We sure aren't getting much from Harty.

[Beck Water]

On 11/6/2023 at 2:20 PM, boyst said:

McKenzie had some tools we could use. We just tried to use them too often.

 

His comments since leaving have been interesting. Especially last year and the play calls/routes. 

 

I haven't been paying attention, other than to note he doesn't get many snaps with the Colts.

 

What has McKenzie said?

 

1 hour ago, BigAl2526 said:

We sure aren't getting much from Harty.

 

That's a big puzzle to me.  We signed him because, according to Beane, he was supposed to be an upgrade on McKenzie - similar speed but better, smoother routes and better ability to track the ball downfield. 

 

Where's he been?

Edited November 23, 2023 by Beck Water

[boyst]

7 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I haven't been paying attention, other than to note he doesn't get many snaps with the Colts.

 

What has McKenzie said?

 

 

That's a big puzzle to me.  We signed him because, according to Beane, he was supposed to be an upgrade on McKenzie - similar speed but better, smoother routes and better ability to track the ball downfield. 

 

Where's he been?

Don't let me forget this. It's going to be a busy day. I'll try to find it, but essentially talking about how he was used in Buffalo play calling. It was just an interesting take but nothing new at this point. But I know you like your sources, let me go run this stupid turkey trot. I'll find it later!

[EasternOHBillsFan]

On 11/22/2023 at 8:25 AM, Irv said:

Hines should be fired. 

 

No, I don't think so.

[Heathcliff]

11 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

We sure aren't getting much from Harty.

No fumbles is an upgrade over McKenzie 

[ColoradoBills]

Hines has a cap hit of $940k this year and next year he has $500k dead cap hit.  He won't be on the team and Beane gets $5M back.

Harty has a $1.375M dead cap hit next year and Beane frees up $4M.

 

Both won't be on the team next season and it frees up $9M.

Bills are $42M in the hole to start next year and the $9M of cap is mandatory.

 

Not great signings at all, but its cost is not extremely bad.

[Mr. WEO]

Hines had one notable game. 
 

Stop

[ngbills]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:11 AM, Solomon Grundy said:

Ty Johnson returned kicks for the Jets and was pretty good at it

Check the stats. He returned like 3 kicks. Thats not "he returned kicks for the Jets". 

[Beck Water]

On 11/23/2023 at 6:08 AM, boyst said:

Don't let me forget this. It's going to be a busy day. I'll try to find it, but essentially talking about how he was used in Buffalo play calling. It was just an interesting take but nothing new at this point. But I know you like your sources, let me go run this stupid turkey trot. I'll find it later!

 

Thanks, I’m just curious.  I thought he was a guy who usually put it straight, maybe too straight for the team, so just curious

 

How was your trot?

[Beck Water]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:18 AM, ColoradoBills said:

Hines has a cap hit of $940k this year and next year he has $500k dead cap hit.  He won't be on the team and Beane gets $5M back.

Harty has a $1.375M dead cap hit next year and Beane frees up $4M.

 

Both won't be on the team next season and it frees up $9M.

Bills are $42M in the hole to start next year and the $9M of cap is mandatory.

 

Not great signings at all, but its cost is not extremely bad.

 

So a couple of points here.  Hines was originally owned like $3.5M this season.   The $940k was a negotiated settlement - the Bills didn’t owe him anything and could theoretically have tried to get his signing bonus returned, while Hines could have filed a grievance for his full salary.  We don’t know the terms of the negotiation, but Hines and Beane have both said they want him on the team next season, and the team committing to carrying him next season may have been part of the negotiation.

 

I don’t think people who beef about these two signings are necessarily looking at next season.  The Bills were operating under a very tight cap budget this season, we’re told.  The thing is, going into the season we had $7.250M cap tied up in Harty and Hines.

 

***** happens we get it as far as Hines is concerned, but still, that’s like $6M cap that could have gone towards a real difference-making offensive playmaker.

 

 

[boyst]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Thanks, I’m just curious.  I thought he was a guy who usually put it straight, maybe too straight for the team, so just curious

 

How was your trot?

I finished over 30 minutes for the first time ever. But pushed a stroller and did a bottle break and several snack breaks.  🤣

 

We didn't use our BOB, we used our other one with a better snack tray. That actually made a difference!

 

I need to keep looking for it. I don't remember all of it but he said there were a lot of plays, his teammates were very competitive, and the playbook was complex. Nothing necessarily bad but the way he put it mattered. It was some time back last spring heading into spring camp.  It may have been in a video vlog interview thing. It's driving me nuts. 

[chongli]

These right here are why we need Nyheim Hines back: