We don’t Need a WR

[whorlnut]

9 minutes ago, 1onemangang7 said:

So Josh is your guy on 4th and 2? He already made it a point he's taking too many hits. You don't list a guy that cam break arm tackles. 

What does this even mean?

[1onemangang7]

2 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

What does this even mean?

Rb isn't even a lower option on your list? You need a whole line of trent Williams types if Cook is going to carry the load, or someone that can run with a little power anyway.

[Sherlock Holmes]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I would rather draft someone to develop behind him. We need a better slot WR. They can’t trust Shakir to be the guy. Got get someone that will get open for Josh.

 

Hunter Renfrow? Trade and extend? We’ll see.

Absolutely need to get Hunter Renfrow in here. That's if we can't get Cooper Kupp

[nosejob]

1 hour ago, T master said:

 

I feel the same they have always looked for the BIG PLAY instead of taking what was there it looked as if Josh was doing that in the very beginning of the season but then as it went along like with the running game they would just stop .

 

The Bills had all the weaponry they needed this year on offense to make it to a championship but like a drag race if you have the HP in the motor but you put a bad driver in the car your going to lose .

 

This game Josh stood back & took way to much time looking down field & it just wasn't there in the time he had ! I would love to see the all 22 tape i bet every play there would have been someone open underneath . The Bills saw what Burrow was doing that was the exact game plan Dorsey should have been calling for Josh .

 

Quick underneath passes it would have helped the O line and slowed down the pass rush & more than likely opened up the run game more & 1 would think that given that Dorsey was a QB he would have saw that & made the proper adjustments or Josh just went rogue & was playing hero ball again .

 

If nothing else they for sure had better save this tape & learn something from it & if this situation comes up again someone needs a ass chewing at the very least !! 

 

 

I can't even think about how many times cook was wide open at the top of the screen(all season)....or Devin /Diggs or Beasley. When it came to hitting  a back in the flat, by the time Josh figures he has nothing else the play gets blown up. That absolutely should have been a big part of the game plan. They all knew the weather and footing was gonna be crap.

 

Speaking of which, why wouldn't they play press man and tangle Chase and Boyd up at the line. The week before they talked about how they knew Tre and Elam were good at it. Maybe just maybe that might have helped the rush a bit.

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

We need an OC who schemes plays where not all the QBs targets are 20 yards down field on 3rd n short. Our receivers are getting separation. The passes have been off, or it’s been a low % pass schemed at the worst time. This team all year hasn’t taken what the defense has gave them and continuously just tried for the big play. Dorsey and Allen=Erratic 

 

How about BOTH!  Football AND Housewives!  "The Housewives are on the Field!  The Housewives are on the Field!"

 

This has been discussed many times.  I don't think you can actually find too many plays this past season where there wasn't at least one open target underneath.

You acknowledge this yourself - "this team all year hasn't taken what the defense has gave them and has continuously just tried for the big play" means there are in fact targets "the defense is giving them" underneath.

 

BUT

 

Gabe Davis and Isaiah McKenzie just were not good enough this year to be our #2 and #3.  And I like them both, but right now there is a significant talent gap between our #2 and #3 target guys, and the Bengals or the KC (yes, KC) #2 or Eagles #2 and #3 and I think you could make an argument for SF, though their offense is built differently enough.

 

Sometimes the receivers get separation, but it's later than it needs to be to work for the protection - even when the protection gives Josh some time.

 

Yeah, I think we need a WR upgrade.  I think we had better WR in 2021 with Sanders and a fading Beasley.  Maybe the upgrade comes from Davis taking a step in his 4th season and Shakir taking a big step between year 1 and 2, but I'd rather not 100% count on that, and if they do, having 4 top WR would not be a horrible thing.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Beck Water

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

We have a great #2 WR in Dawson Knox, it was unfortunate that his brother passed away but this guy imo can be another Travis Kelce when his head is back in the game. Towards the end of the season he started showing his dominance but the fact that they needed him to block more and the situation with his brother took away a solid option for us. Get this man a bunch of dedicated plays to get him open.

[HOUSE]

Just move Isiah Hodgins up. Problem solved

[Mrbojanglezs]

Why not both

[damj]

3 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

We need an OC who schemes plays where not all the QBs targets are 20 yards down field on 3rd n short. Our receivers are getting separation. The passes have been off, or it’s been a low % pass schemed at the worst time. This team all year hasn’t taken what the defense has gave them and continuously just tried for the big play. Dorsey and Allen=Erratic 

 

[Billz4ever]

The fact they felt the need to pull Beas and Smoke out of retirement because the guys not named Diggs were underperforming certainly screams we need more talent there.

 

Not to say Dorsey's play design and play calling don't leave a lot to be desired, but a true WR2 we most certainly need.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Billz4ever

[schoolhouserock]

I am about 60/40… 60% thinking an improved O-line will make the current set of receivers much more palatable… 40% thinking the Bills should always prioritize a WR over an interior O-lineman.

[Gugny]

3 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

We need an OC who schemes plays where not all the QBs targets are 20 yards down field on 3rd n short. Our receivers are getting separation. The passes have been off, or it’s been a low % pass schemed at the worst time. This team all year hasn’t taken what the defense has gave them and continuously just tried for the big play. Dorsey and Allen=Erratic 

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

With all due respect, based upon TSW thread reviews I believe that Leodis 'Oops' McKelvin is in negotiations to send the 'Oops' to Gabe Davis.  Check the threads after just about any game.

[BuffaL0L0k0]

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The Bills/Bengals game was on NFL Network yesterday. I watched just a few minutes. The Bills are driving for the score that would’ve changed the game going into halftime. Singletary is wide open on the check down over the middle for the first down that gets them into field goal range and Josh throws it over his head by five feet. Two plays later McD punts from their side of the 50 with a minute left in the half and everyone in the country knows it’s over. 

"the country" knows...? .... naaahhh! "the world", please🙃

43 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

How about BOTH!  Football AND Housewives!  "The Housewives are on the Field!  The Housewives are on the Field!"

 

This has been discussed many times.  I don't think you can actually find too many plays this past season where there wasn't at least one open target underneath.

You acknowledge this yourself - "this team all year hasn't taken what the defense has gave them and has continuously just tried for the big play" means there are in fact targets "the defense is giving them" underneath.

 

BUT

 

Gabe Davis and Isaiah McKenzie just were not good enough this year to be our #2 and #3.  And I like them both, but right now there is a significant talent gap between our #2 and #3 target guys, and the Bengals or the KC (yes, KC) #2 or Eagles #2 and #3 and I think you could make an argument for SF, though their offense is built differently enough.

 

Sometimes the receivers get separation, but it's later than it needs to be to work for the protection - even when the protection gives Josh some time.

 

Yeah, I think we need a WR upgrade.  I think we had better WR in 2021 with Sanders and a fading Beasley.  Maybe the upgrade comes from Davis taking a step in his 4th season and Shakir taking a big step between year 1 and 2, but I'd rather not 100% count on that, and if they do, having 4 top WR would not be a horrible thing.

I wouldn't even attempt to make an argument for a team that has Dabool as 1 and Ayuk as 2 ...

[Captain Caveman]

I do think they need to figure out why the short / intermediate passing game didn't work this year.  I agree that at times it seems like guys were getting open - were they not where Allen expected them to be, did he not trust them to catch the ball, was he not seeing them, or was he just hell bent on going down the field?

[518Buffalo]

In theory our pass-catchers should be better next year with internal improvement:

 

- Shakir improvement and more involvement

- Cook improvement and more involvement

- Knox growth

- Davis growth and getting his **** together (he was dropping passes he was catching his first 2 years)

- Dorsey actually using his pass-catching RBs for checkdowns and YAC

 

I still want a WR in the first 2 rounds. I think the WR depth should be better but we still don't have a good WR2. Diggs is turning 30 and we need to think about talent in the room in a few years. Would like to see something like this next year:

 

- Diggs

- Davis/Rookie WR

- Rookie WR/Davis

- Shakir

- McKenzie or Beasley

- Kumerow

 

With Knox, Cook and Hines, and hopefully better playcalling, that should be a solid group. But the reality is with Allen and Diggs getting paid as much as they are, we need them to carry the passing offense with a less expensive cast

[Captain Caveman]

I also remember at the beginning of the year we heard a lot about the short game and then in the first game or 2 (and maybe in preseason too?) we saw a lot of batted passes - maybe they thought that was too big of a risk with the shorter throws?  Still, other teams manage it and get it working for them.

[hondo in seattle]

Here's our offense:  

 

Josh drops back.  He starts running around because either (A) the passpro breaks down quickly or (B) the receivers aren't open.  Eventually Josh makes a great play - or doesn't.  It's not a sustainable offense.

 

A good WR would help us.   But what I really want to see is a better offensive scheme that includes a better running attack and more quick hitting passes. 

 

Whatever kind of offense we run would benefit from better offensive linemen.  That's the big change I hope to see.  

[KingBoots8]

Let’s take a look at the stats between the current playoff teams and the Bills

 

 

Philly:

AJ Brown - 11.                   1,496 yds

Devonta Smith - 7.            1,196 yds

Dallas Goedert (TE) - 3.    702 yds

Quez Watkins - 3.              354 yds

Totals: 24 TDs.                   3,748 yds
 

Cincy:

Ja’mar Chase - 9.    1,046 yds (12 games)

Tee Higgins - 7.        1,029 yds

Tyler Boyd - 5.          762 yds

Joe Mixon (RB) - 2.  441 yds

Totals: 23 TDs.         3,278 yds

 

**Hayden Hurst (TE) - very similar stat-wise this regular season to Mixon, in yards and receiving TDs- 414 yds, 2td.

 

SanFran:

Deebo Samuel - 2.  (13 games)     632 yds 

George Kittle (TE) - 11.                   765 yds

Brandon Aiyuk - 8.                        1,015 yds

CMC (RB) - 4.   (11 games).           464 yds

Totals: 25 TDs.                                  2,876 yds           

 

Kansas City

Travis Kelce (TE) - 12.                1,338 yds

Juju Smith-Schuster - 3.              933 yds

Marquez Valdez-Scantling - 2.     687 yds

Jerrick McKinnon - 9.                    512 yds 

Totals: 26 TDs                                 3,470 yds

 

how about us?

 

Buffalo

Stefon Diggs - 11.         1,429 yds

Gabe Davis - 7.                836 yds

Dawson Knox (TE) - 6.    517 yds

Isaiah McKenzie - 4.        423 yds

Totals: 28 TDs.               3,205 yds

 

Statistically, our guys can put points on the board, but we only beat a run-first team on their 3rd QB from the playoff teams in yards. Our stats are impressive considering I would say we have the worst line of the 5 teams compared here.

 

Addressing the O-line has to be priority #1, but look at a team like Cincy- they have 2 1,000 yard receivers, and Chase would be much higher if he didn’t go down for 5 weeks. In his absence Higgins and Boyd did an admirable job filling in. Imagine if Stef missed any time… we would be absolutely screwed without high-caliber depth.

 

Gabe statistically lines up between a 2 and a 3, and while I think he is capable of becoming a 2 he isn’t there yet. Knox had a lot to overcome the first half of the year and got much better after week 10. McKenzie has the ability to make big plays but I don’t think was schemed appropriately. That being said, there’s no way if Diggs ever got hurt we could fully rely on him to become WR2 and put up comparable stats.

 

We need to address WR2. Every year we need to draft one (not always at the top of the draft, mind you). We need guys who are versatile and can fill in when the poo hits the fan, otherwise we would just be Green Bay this year. Again, I agree O-line and better scheming will help, but we need a true WR2, and we need to get younger.

Edited January 26, 2023 by KingBoots8

[MAJBobby]

4 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

We need an OC who schemes plays where not all the QBs targets are 20 yards down field on 3rd n short. Our receivers are getting separation. The passes have been off, or it’s been a low % pass schemed at the worst time. This team all year hasn’t taken what the defense has gave them and continuously just tried for the big play. Dorsey and Allen=Erratic 

Yes we really do.

[Success]

We do.  We need a legit WR2.  We have Diggs and a bunch of solid receivers who are 3 or 4 guys.

 

You need someone opposite Diggs who create match-up problems for defenses and stretch their coverage.

 

And I kept thinking at the end of the season - what if Diggs gets injured?  The drop-off is too big.  If you get a legit WR2, it just gives you a better chance if something like that happens.  As it was this season, an injury would have ended our chances. Definitively.

 

[In Summary]

4 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

They definitely need a WR2.

 

Gabe is good as your 3rd/4th option, but he’s not a 2.

 

 

Agree. Had Diggs gone down for a couple games, this would be more obvious.  

[BADOLBILZ]

44 minutes ago, schoolhouserock said:

I am about 60/40… 60% thinking an improved O-line will make the current set of receivers much more palatable… 40% thinking the Bills should always prioritize a WR over an interior O-lineman.

 

 

I get that people have indecision about which comes first.  

 

My argument is for another WR1A or B to allow Diggs to play in the slot.

 

It's just one player they need to make their WR corps elite..........where they may need 3 or even 4 to make their OL "very good".

 

And there are more franchise QB's than there are "very good" OL's in the NFL today.

 

The OL the Bengals fielded Sunday was awful in terms of individual talent and past performance.........and they tore up the Bills highly ranked defense with quick passing and playmakers.

 

Fielding an OL like Philly, SF or KC is worthy of being aspirational but IMO is quite unlikely to happen as soon as 2023, IMO.

[Billz4ever]

29 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

Here's our offense:  

 

Josh drops back.  He starts running around because either (A) the passpro breaks down quickly or (B) the receivers aren't open.  Eventually Josh makes a great play - or doesn't.  It's not a sustainable offense.

 

A good WR would help us.   But what I really want to see is a better offensive scheme that includes a better running attack and more quick hitting passes. 

 

Whatever kind of offense we run would benefit from better offensive linemen.  That's the big change I hope to see.  

Yeah, the "Pray Josh can create on the fly" is not any offensive scheme I've ever heard of, but we made it one this year for sure.

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

Comes down to coaching.

 

Yes and no.  Getting Allen to hit them does, but it's gotten old watching balls bounce off of or in-and-out-of Mr. 64.6% Catch-Percentage's hands.  To give you a baseline, that's good for 122nd in the league, ... of players that qualify.  

 

Davis comes in at an impressive 51.6% this season, good for 186th and near the bottom of the [qualified] rankings.  He's 54.1% during his time with the Bills.  

Shakir's at 50%.  

 

The only two WRs that we've had recently that are reliable in that way are Beasley, who's the only one with over 70% career, and Diggs.  

[Meatloaf63]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

There’s open receivers underneath. 

Allen refuses to use them. So is our coordinator too weak to control him? Even the Gabe pass against Cinci had Knox wide open.

[Billz4ever]

37 minutes ago, KingBoots8 said:

Let’s take a look at the stats between the current playoff teams and the Bills

 

 

Philly:

AJ Brown - 11.                   1,496 yds

Devonta Smith - 7.            1,196 yds

Dallas Goedert (TE) - 3.    702 yds

Quez Watkins - 3.              354 yds

Totals: 24 TDs.                   3,748 yds
 

Cincy:

Ja’mar Chase - 9.    1,046 yds (12 games)

Tee Higgins - 7.        1,029 yds

Tyler Boyd - 5.          762 yds

Joe Mixon (RB) - 2.  441 yds

Totals: 23 TDs.         3,278 yds

 

**Hayden Hurst (TE) - very similar stat-wise this regular season to Mixon, in yards and receiving TDs- 414 yds, 2td.

 

SanFran:

Deebo Samuel - 2.  (13 games)     632 yds 

George Kittle (TE) - 11.                   765 yds

Brandon Aiyuk - 8.                        1,015 yds

CMC (RB) - 4.   (11 games).           464 yds

Totals: 25 TDs.                                  2,876 yds           

 

Kansas City

Travis Kelce (TE) - 12.                1,338 yds

Juju Smith-Schuster - 3.              933 yds

Marquez Valdez-Scantling - 2.     687 yds

Jerrick McKinnon - 9.                    512 yds 

Totals: 26 TDs                                 3,470 yds

 

how about us?

 

Buffalo

Stefon Diggs - 11.         1,429 yds

Gabe Davis - 7.                836 yds

Dawson Knox (TE) - 6.    517 yds

Isaiah McKenzie - 4.        423 yds

Totals: 28 TDs.               3,205 yds

 

Statistically, our guys can put points on the board, but we only beat a run-first team on their 3rd QB from the playoff teams in yards. Our stats are impressive considering I would say we have the worst line of the 5 teams compared here.

 

Addressing the O-line has to be priority #1, but look at a team like Cincy- they have 2 1,000 yard receivers, and Chase would be much higher if he didn’t go down for 5 weeks. In his absence Higgins and Boyd did an admirable job filling in. Imagine if Stef missed any time… we would be absolutely screwed without high-caliber depth.

 

Gabe statistically lines up between a 2 and a 3, and while I think he is capable of becoming a 2 he isn’t there yet. Knox had a lot to overcome the first half of the year and got much better after week 10. McKenzie has the ability to make big plays but I don’t think was schemed appropriately. That being said, there’s no way if Diggs ever got hurt we could fully rely on him to become WR2 and put up comparable stats.

 

We need to address WR2. Every year we need to draft one (not always at the top of the draft, mind you). We need guys who are versatile and can fill in when the poo hits the fan, otherwise we would just be Green Bay this year. Again, I agree O-line and better scheming will help, but we need a true WR2, and we need to get younger.

Over Gabe's last 7 games of the season, he averaged 3 catches and less than 42 yards per game. No bueno for a WR2 on any team in this league, nevermind one that passes as much as we do and the expectations he had this season.

[MrEpsYtown]

4 hours ago, whorlnut said:

Joe Marino said it beat the other day. We have turned into a vertical passing offense mainly because Davis is so limited in his route tree. He has a hard time with intermediate routes and is basically a one trick pony that goes deep or not much else. WR2 is a glaring need because of these issues. Teams figured it out with him. 

 

This was the knock on Davis when he was drafted, and part of why he dropped. And honestly it is a problem that it has not changed. Blame him and the coaches. Also blame them for allowing Hodgins to get away (essentially the anti Davis). Just poor evaluations. 

[Meatloaf63]

56 minutes ago, Captain Caveman said:

I do think they need to figure out why the short / intermediate passing game didn't work this year.  I agree that at times it seems like guys were getting open - were they not where Allen expected them to be, did he not trust them to catch the ball, was he not seeing them, or was he just hell bent on going down the field?

Million dollar question 👍

[Freddie's Dead]

One wonders if the OP watched any Bills games this year.  We need WR's badly, the kind that make plays.  We need playoff Gabe in the regular season, he had WAY too many drops.  I'm a massive McKittrick fan, but even though he still made a lot of first downs for the team, we needed more from him this year.  Beasley and Brown are shot.  Crowder?  Who knows, but we can't wait around for him.  We can't stand pat with this group of WR's, we need at least 2 or 3, if to do nothing else than push the ones we have here.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Freddie's Dead

[Wayne Arnold]

4 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

We need an OC who schemes plays where not all the QBs targets are 20 yards down field on 3rd n short. Our receivers are getting separation. The passes have been off, or it’s been a low % pass schemed at the worst time. This team all year hasn’t taken what the defense has gave them and continuously just tried for the big play. Dorsey and Allen=Erratic 

 

There isn't an OC on the planet who can scheme positive plays when the receiver drops the ball.

[SoCal Deek]

I said it before this year’s playoffs started and I was right. I’d hoped that we’d see the version of Josh that showed up in last year’s playoffs. Take the underneath stuff and move the chains. There’s no doubt that was the correct strategy in the snow on Sunday. Unfortunately what we got was the same Josh we saw during the regular season with way too much focus on the deep ball and oddly inaccurate throws when he did reluctantly choose to dump it off. Result….going home a week too early. 

[DCofNC]

4 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

If your team is bringing in retired WR’s during the season because the WR’s on the team aren’t getting the job done (outside of Diggs), then those WR’s are garbage. Davis a not a #2WR, he’s a #3/4. McKenzie is a gadget player and not a consistent slot WR. Too soon to tell on Shakir, but banking on a low round draft pick to be an instant contributor was a horrible and stupid gamble.

Beane went with Hope as a strategy, it didn’t work.
 

He counted on Davis making the leap, something he had never done, McKenzie being a starter and to his credit he did bring in Crowder, but he’s been made of glass so it was a known risk.   Essentially, he let go of two veterans, replaced them with 1 and hoped everyone could move into full time roles, under a new, inexperienced coordinator, though none had done it before, oh and threw in a 5th round rookie.  

 

Take a quick look at what was out there besides Diggs, the highest drafted player was Knox, a 3rd round pick, and you had McKenzie who was a scrap heap find, Davis a 4th rounder who never had been more than a #3, throw in glass man, then you have TD Jesus, another scrap heap find, and your rookie 5th round pick.  That’s what Allen got to work with.  Show me another team with so little, that actually wins.  

 

There were so many opportunities to add talent and they passed, it’s sickening.  Instead of giving up a low 3rd round pick for a massively talented, albeit giant douchebag, in Toney, they let him go to KC and tried John Brown.  C’mon man.  Couldn’t afford to lose another replacement level RB or ST Lb in the draft I guess.  Even Valdez-Scantling was a option to pursue over anybody we brought in for FA.   Let’s just not talk about the draft where they decided CB was the priority in round 1, took a pass catching RB they didn’t regard as a starter (Beane’s words at the draft, not mine) in the second, took a LB that would have been at best a 6th round pick based on measurables and athletic ability, quite possibly a UDFA, in the 3rd, 4th gone to go up 2 spots for the CB in the first and THEN they took a flier on Shakir.. wow.

[stlbills13]

I'm still a Gabe believer but even then I think there is a big need at WR. And Allen does need to take the underneath throw more but it still doesn't change the need at WR. 

[MrEpsYtown]

12 minutes ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Million dollar question 👍

 

Yeah I think that is where losing Beasley hurt. I thought Crowder looked pretty good early on as that intermediate guy, then he got hurt. That really intelligent and subtle route running was missing with McKenzie (who will never be that guy) and Shakir, who has a chance to develop into that. You have to consider bringing back a Beasley or a Crowder or similar guy in FA like Randall Cobb. Jakobi Meyers is a perfect fit but may be too expensive. 

[Captain Caveman]

24 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

There isn't an OC on the planet who can scheme positive plays when the receiver drops the ball.

 

Absolutely true, but there are OCs who are scheming the passing games to create more easy throws / catches (which inherently should improve our drop rate.)

Edited January 26, 2023 by Captain Caveman

[Big Turk]

5 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

... and in the flats, routinely.  

 

The best QBs use that, first, to gain yards, second, to help spread the D out.

 

Allen's a great QB, he understands this.  A minor tweak to his game.  He did it more last year, but he had Beasley too, more reliable hands than McK or our other slot/short options.

 

BC WR Zay Flowers please...stick him in the slot and let's go.

 

Cheetah Lite...

[LyndonvilleBill]

20 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

BC WR Zay Flowers please...stick him in the slot and let's go.

 

Cheetah Lite...

Didn't you read, he is banned from all Bills draft boards due to his name?😂

[appoo]

I think the more accurate statement is we don’t know if we need a WR or not because the oline and Dorsey’s growing pains makes it next to impossible to truly assess the WRs.

[Rocbillsfan1]

5 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

We need an OC who schemes plays where not all the QBs targets are 20 yards down field on 3rd n short. Our receivers are getting separation. The passes have been off, or it’s been a low % pass schemed at the worst time. This team all year hasn’t taken what the defense has gave them and continuously just tried for the big play. Dorsey and Allen=Erratic 

Somewhat agree. I think we were still good enough to beat Cincinnati if we had daboll calling the game but it’s also obvious Davis is not a consistent #2 on the outside. Love having him as a 3rd or 4th option though like he was last year.