Continuing yards after catch (YAC) mystery

[Inigo Montoya]

It's crazy to me that the Bills pass catchers continue to rank so low on yards after catch.  It clearly isn't slowing the 12-3 offense down too much, I'm just not sure how to explain it.  We have an elite QB and solid receivers.  The Bills' offense struggled with YAC last season and I remember Josh said it was a point of emphasis for him this last off-season when he was working with Jordan Palmer, working on ball placement to allow his pass catchers to increase their YAC.  

 

To provide some context, the Chiefs are 1st in YAC, the Bills are 24th.  Austin Ekeler is 1st in YAC, Kelce is 2nd, Jefferson is 3rd.  Hill and Waddle are 7th and 8t.  Diggs is 23rd, Singletary is 60th, Knox is 99th, and Gabe Davis is 133rd in YAC.  Is it just the style of the offense we've been running, the types of routes being run, or how Josh is getting the ball in there?   Do the Bills have more sideline / out cutting routes than is typical?   Has anyone noticed some tendencies of the Bills' offense that can explain it?   For whatever reason, improved YAC hasn't happened this year.

 

The offense is still getting the job done and this isn't a post to be critical of the Bills offense.  As long as Josh and Co. keep stacking wins I don't care how they do it.  It's more of a technical question about how the Bills 7th ranked passing offense can also be 24th in YAC?  It seems a bit of an anomaly.

[LABILLBACKER]

If there was a negative YAC stat we'd probably lead the league. So tired of watching our wrs (especially Diggs) run backwards. 

[JohnNord]

Part of the problem is that the Bills haven’t really have much of a screen game.  I’m not exactly sure why as it should favor their offensive line but the few screens they have called usually result in little yardage.  I can’t remember the exact number but I believe Mahomes led the league in shorter passes yet also led the league in passing yards.  

 

I also think part is Josh as a passer.  He’s more of an off-schedule thrower at QB rather than a timing passer. Also I think ball placement has been an issue at times.
 

Then you have WR’s like Diggs who is a great route runner but not a burner, Davis who can get open deep but doesn’t have a great route tree, and the rest of the WR’s

Edited December 28, 2022 by JohnNord

[Brand J]

1) We don’t have a timing based offense designed to get YAC yards.

 

2) Our screen game is terrible. At least under Daboll the WR screens were somewhat effective. Under Dorsey, yards from the RB/TE/WR screens are virtually non-existent. 
 

3) Ball placement still seems to rear its ugly head for Josh, thus eliminating some YAC opportunities. 

[DaggersEOD]

Eyeball/gut answer is that JAs arm allows him to get balls through very tight windows leaving the ball carrier with little to no space to work with once they make the catch. 
 

It’s almost like all the YAC is sucked up in the “air yards” the ball travels. 
 

Im not a stats ninja but perhaps there’s a statistical relationship between air yards and YAC. Meaning more air yards tend to result in less YAC while less air yards tend to result in more YAC. 

 

It would be interesting to see where our pass catchers rank in “air yards/catch”. 
 

I guess what I’m saying is shorter routes equal more YAC and that’s not our game. 

[Dr.Sack]

Allen would rather throw a laser than check the ball down. It’s the way he plays. Also the weather sucks the past 8 or so games, meaning the conditions make it difficult to secure the ball let alone get YAC.

[BillsBy50]

It’s all about the screen game, Mahomes is checking down big YAC plays to McKinnon almost every drive. Misleading stat yawn 

[DCbillsfan]

Made me think of Davis' 98 yard TD against the Steelers.  Allen throws the ball from the end zone, with a guy bearing down on him, to the 50 where Davis catches it and runs it in.  About 48 air yards and 50 yards after the catch.  Bills offense just isn't geared towards YAC.  Mostly air yards.

[Inigo Montoya]

8 minutes ago, BillsBy50 said:

It’s all about the screen game, Mahomes is checking down big YAC plays to McKinnon almost every drive. Misleading stat yawn 

 

McKinnon is ranked 5th in YAC.  I'm not sure what's misleading about the stat.  If anything it points to Allen being much more responsible for the Bills' passing game success than Mahomes is for the Chiefs.  Mahomes has two of the top five YAC pass catchers in the league.  Josh doesn't have that luxury.  

 

It's just one more ingredient to throw into the MVP discussion soup.

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

It's crazy to me that the Bills pass catchers continue to rank so low on yards after catch.  It clearly isn't slowing the 12-3 offense down too much, I'm just not sure how to explain it.  We have an elite QB and solid receivers.  The Bills' offense struggled with YAC last season and I remember Josh said it was a point of emphasis for him this last off-season when he was working with Jordan Palmer, working on ball placement to allow his pass catchers to increase their YAC.  

 

To provide some context, the Chiefs are 1st in YAC, the Bills are 24th.  Austin Ekeler is 1st in YAC, Kelce is 2nd, Jefferson is 3rd.  Hill and Waddle are 7th and 8t.  Diggs is 23rd, Singletary is 60th, Knox is 99th, and Gabe Davis is 133rd in YAC.  Is it just the style of the offense we've been running, the types of routes being run, or how Josh is getting the ball in there?   Do the Bills have more sideline / out cutting routes than is typical?   Has anyone noticed some tendencies of the Bills' offense that can explain it?   For whatever reason, improved YAC hasn't happened this year.

 

The offense is still getting the job done and this isn't a post to be critical of the Bills offense.  As long as Josh and Co. keep stacking wins I don't care how they do it.  It's more of a technical question about how the Bills 7th ranked passing offense can also be 24th in YAC?  It seems a bit of an anomaly.

 

 

It's a combination of factors........most already mentioned in the thread.

 

But the receiving corps is definitely part of the issue..........Diggs is great before the catch but just good after he's received the ball............and Knox and Davis both struggle to catch the football......so as with all receivers with poor ball skills do they often have to stop or leave their feet in order to concentrate on the catch.......which leaves them dead for YAC.

 

I've mentioned it before but when you build your receiving corps with middle round talents you generally don't get targets with the whole package.  

[NoSaint]

Not a lot of screens

 

not elite speed

 

frankly outside diggs not great talent on the perimeter 

 

Knox isn’t much of a tackle breaker

 

refusal to get the ball in cooks hands 

 

This team isn’t built well for that

[PromoTheRobot]

This whole YAC thing is dumb. Who cares about YAC when you have a QB who can throw a ball 15-20 yards or more every play? If you're noodle arm Mac Jones then YAC starts to matter. Not if your Josh Allen.

[BearNorth]

Our O-line play is mediocre, that takes away a lot of screen and tight end plays that can generate big YAC.  McKenzie [when he can catch the ball] isn't exactly a huge YAC machine.

[Fleezoid]

I think there are 2 reasons for this. For some reason, there's a lot of passes to the sidelines. Not much room after the catch. Also, most of the passes to the middle of the field seem to be come-back routes. Those are actually good 1st down plays and it works with a QB with a strong arm.

 

Or, maybe it's that every play is off-script. 

 

[RunTheBall]

It's the routes Dorsey calls. A ton of hitches, outs, deep crossers and few screens. Thrown in a bit of poor ball placement by Josh and there goes your YAC. I couldn't care less about this stat especially if it's made up for in air yards and passes that end in the EZ

[costrovs]

It's a mix of all of it...

Plays, Players, Oline. 

[Inigo Montoya]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

This whole YAC thing is dumb. Who cares about YAC when you have a QB who can throw a ball 15-20 yards or more every play? If you're noodle arm Mac Jones then YAC starts to matter. Not if your Josh Allen.

 

I agree with you that Allen covers up a lot of deficiencies on this offense like the shaky run game, poor YAC, and hit and miss O-Line play.

 

The point is that if poor YAC is a scheme issue then we are depriving this offense of some easy yards by not adjusting the scheme to address it.  I think Josh has more on his plate than any other QB in the league.  Anything Dorsey can do to lighten that load is a good thing.  The question comes back to, is it a scheme issue, the QB, or the pass catchers?   If it's a combo of issues, which it likely is, is there something they can do to fix it?

 

🍻

[Big Turk]

At one point, they were in the top 5 in YAC

[Process]

I think the offense we run is a big part of it. Not designed for guys to get yards after catch.

 

Allen's ball placement is also pretty poor. He is nowhere near as precise as Mahomes and some other guys. He doesn't lead guys so they can catch on the go and guys are often having to make adjustments to the ball. That's not really a knock on him, all QBs have flaws and that's one of his.

 

How are the Giants this year in YAC? Curious bc of Daboll. There offense is also made up of a bunch of practice squad players so not sure we can take much from that .

[Inigo Montoya]

6 minutes ago, Process said:

How are the Giants this year in YAC? Curious bc of Daboll. There offense is also made up of a bunch of practice squad players so not sure we can take much from that .

 

Giants are ranked 19th.

 

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=231

 

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

If there was a negative YAC stat we'd probably lead the league. So tired of watching our wrs (especially Diggs) run backwards. 

Yeah he had a really really bad example of that last week, I think he lost about 5 yards.

[PromoTheRobot]

29 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

I agree with you that Allen covers up a lot of deficiencies on this offense like the shaky run game, poor YAC, and hit and miss O-Line play.

 

The point is that if poor YAC is a scheme issue then we are depriving this offense of some easy yards by not adjusting the scheme to address it.  I think Josh has more on his plate than any other QB in the league.  Anything Dorsey can do to lighten that load is a good thing.  The question comes back to, is it a scheme issue, the QB, or the pass catchers?   If it's a combo of issues, which it likely is, is there something they can do to fix it?

 

🍻

 

YAC is just a number. 10 yards is 10 yards whether you run the ball 10, throw it one yard and run 9, or throw it 10.

[Big Blitz]

Because we don’t have Austin Ekeler.  
 

Or Hill.  
 

Or Waddle. 
 

 

Singletary is 60th.  There’s the answer.  And McKenzie hasn’t had enough catches.  
 

Our QB runs more then almost all the others.  
 

Last year was worse because we got almost nothing after the catch from Cole.  And RB 2 was Moss.  

YAC isn’t just about the QB hitting guys in stride to be able to keep them running. 
 

It’s also about elite agility guys making people miss or running by everyone.  

 

Since using Cook more - say around week 10 - I wonder where we rank.  
 

 

This stat is an easy eye test.  Does this team have speed?   
 

Overall on offense not really.  Cook and McKenzie.  That’s it.  Davis and Diggs game isn’t really a speed/make you miss game

[Inigo Montoya]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

 

YAC is just a number. 10 yards is 10 yards whether you run the ball 10, throw it one yard and run 9, or throw it 10.

 

No argument from me on that point.  Like I said in the OP, I don't care how the Bills offense scores points as long as they keep winning.   If it's possible to take some of the burden off of Josh where he doesn't have to rocket the ball all over the field and get him some easy completions that move the sticks instead, I think that would be a good thing.  

[Seventeen]

42 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

This whole YAC thing is dumb. Who cares about YAC when you have a QB who can throw a ball 15-20 yards or more every play? If you're noodle arm Mac Jones then YAC starts to matter. Not if your Josh Allen.

 

Disagree - KC and Cinci are in the top 5 YAC and Mahomes/Burrow are perfectly capable of throwing a ball 15-20 downfield. So why do they rank so high in YAC ? 

[Gugny]

44 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

This whole YAC thing is dumb. Who cares about YAC when you have a QB who can throw a ball 15-20 yards or more every play? If you're noodle arm Mac Jones then YAC starts to matter. Not if your Josh Allen.

 

Agreed.  

 

The Bills are scoring 28 points/game, which is 2nd in the AFC (KC - 29.2).

 

Bills are also averaging 260 passing yards/game.  KC (#1) averages 304 passing yards/game.

 

Chiefs average just 19 more total offense yards/game than the Bills (#1 and #2 in the NFL, respectively).

 

Who cares how the yards come?

 

They're scoring a lot of points and that's what wins games.

 

[Roundybout]

Playcalling doesn't ask for a lot of plays like drags and shallow crossers that provide a lot of YAC potential. It's mostly posts and corner routes. Plus, our screen game STINKS. 

[Solomon Grundy]

58 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

This whole YAC thing is dumb. Who cares about YAC when you have a QB who can throw a ball 15-20 yards or more every play? If you're noodle arm Mac Jones then YAC starts to matter. Not if your Josh Allen.

Josh and the Bills cares. It was supposed to be an emphasis in the offseason to be better with YAC yardage. The reason they signed Jameson Crowder. A poster mentioned it earlier that Josh prefers laser shots than checkdowns. The reason Mahomes has been more efficient this year is because he's been more prone to check the ball down to his RB. 

[loyal2dagame]

1 hour ago, DaggersEOD said:

Eyeball/gut answer is that JAs arm allows him to get balls through very tight windows leaving the ball carrier with little to no space to work with once they make the catch. 
 

It’s almost like all the YAC is sucked up in the “air yards” the ball travels. 
 

Im not a stats ninja but perhaps there’s a statistical relationship between air yards and YAC. Meaning more air yards tend to result in less YAC while less air yards tend to result in more YAC. 

 

It would be interesting to see where our pass catchers rank in “air yards/catch”. 
 

I guess what I’m saying is shorter routes equal more YAC and that’s not our game. 

These right here are a great points that i really haven't given enough thought to. 

[JaCrispy]

Easy way to explain it is we have a QB, who, while extremely gifted, is not a precision passer who throws guys open- even when there’s not a tight window, and plenty of open field…

 

Hate all you want, but it’s the truth…

Edited December 28, 2022 by JaCrispy

[Roundybout]

8 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Easy way to explain it is we have a QB, who, while extremely gifted, is not a precision passer who throws guys open- even when there’s not a tight window, and plenty of open field…

 

Hate all you want, but it’s the truth…

 

He can absolutely do it, though. That long pass to Knox against Miami was perfect! I feel that he just chooses not to take the underneath stuff too much. 

[HOUSE]

Quicker pass and proper location

It's not rocket science 

[skibum]

I don't think YAC yards are Diggs' strong suit. His tendency is to dink and dunk to juke his defender after the catch, rather than pick an angle, turn upfield, and hit the afterburners. Too much hesitation. Easy for me to say, though!

[Boatdrinks]

46 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

Disagree - KC and Cinci are in the top 5 YAC and Mahomes/Burrow are perfectly capable of throwing a ball 15-20 downfield. So why do they rank so high in YAC ? 

I see it as a scheme / design thing. Watching the Chiefs in particular, Mahomes is often throwing to college-open WRs. There’s no a defender within 4-5 yards pretty regularly. They have space to create. The route concepts in the Daboll/ Dorsey offense don’t seem to have the WRs in these open spaces. Josh often chooses to zip the ball into a tight space further downfield than to throw underneath to a guy with more room to roam. Haven’t looked in depth at this but that’s my impression just watching casually. 

[MJS]

1) Our receivers are mostly possession and route running receivers, not speed guys who can turn up field.

 

2) Defenses always have their eyes in the backfield against us because of the threat of Josh running. This hurts the screen and short passing game.

 

3) Josh Allen extends plays and waits for routes to develop. YAC usually comes from quick hitters.

 

4) Josh Allen takes fewer check downs than most QB's. Check downs usually get more YAC.

 

5) The receivers have more freedom to run routes in this offense. This means many times Josh has to wait and find them open, instead of throwing the ball to a precise spot every time. The freedom to run routes helps some things, hurts some others, such as YAC.

[PrimeTime101]

So, let's work this from the bottom up. 

 

Things that help get WR's more Yac.

 

1. Play design- Play design has everything to do with Yac, If your running routs in layers and the throws are meant to be in the first or second layer... then DB's will catch you.

2. Ball Positioning- Another huge part, while I see JA putting it right there, I also see WR's having to reach at weird angles.

3. Offensive Line. You all know how much of a rush JA has had to get that ball out at times. 5 plays he has all day, then the next 5 times they on him in 1.5 seconds.

4. WR Speed. There has to be a reason why we got a dude named smoke.

5. WR Rout Running skill/quickness. I think Diggs is a top 3 WR in this league. THAT BEING SAID!!! <(my fav. saying  ) he is nor ever be a big yak running WR.

6. The Running Game. This is getting better BUT, if teams do not have respect for your running game 7 DB's/LBS will be floating all over the place. This obviously is getting better.

[The Firebaugh Kid]

WR screens. Likely a big part of why KC ranks so high. Not sure why we aren't using them more but....

[DapperCam]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

YAC is just a number. 10 yards is 10 yards whether you run the ball 10, throw it one yard and run 9, or throw it 10.

True, but a 1 yard pass has a higher chance of being completed and a lower chance of being a turnover than a 10 yard pass. That is the allure. Same yards gained, less risk.

[Brand J]

43 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Easy way to explain it is we have a QB, who, while extremely gifted, is not a precision passer who throws guys open- even when there’s not a tight window, and plenty of open field…

 

Hate all you want, but it’s the truth…

No hate, it’s true. I’d even go so far to say that he’s a streaky passer. Some games he’ll have all world accuracy where he does throw receivers open and just places the ball in the absolute best spot it could be, while the other 66% of his games he struggles with accuracy and placement. This year he’s been struggling with decision making too. I’m just hoping it’s more that his concentration is built for the playoffs than regular season. 

[JaCrispy]

42 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

 

He can absolutely do it, though. That long pass to Knox against Miami was perfect! I feel that he just chooses not to take the underneath stuff too much. 

Oh, he can and has shown great accuracy from time to time- no doubt…he just doesn’t do it consistently enough to where you can rely on it being done…