Josh Allen's Elbow

[Beck Water]

39 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

My own insular, purely amateur, but also kind-of-observant thinking was ALSO that Allen could have been dealing with an injury suffered in the GB game prior to the sudden onset of his red zone yips. So many oddly unpropelled throws while moving to his right. Throws that just had NO thrust.

 

I actually thought he'd hit his hand on a helmet. Didn't he? Of course he publicly denied his hand was actually hurt (supporting at least that this hand-to-helmet thing happened, IF Allen addressed it), but we all know that something changed, and changed quickly. I might be conflating a play from near the end of the Miami game with something else, mind you. But it DID seem like something happened against GB. 

 

It doesn't HAVE to be injury-related. It could be a simple dip in his play from absolutely ELITE, BEST-EVER level (including last season's playoffs) to something less godlike. I mean wow, what a run he had there. Time to adjust now. Looks like it's working. Let's go.

 

Yeah, it just seemed like all of a sudden (starting in the 2nd half of the GB game) the ball just wasn't going where he wanted it to go. 

 

I don't think that's a "simple dip in his play".  What it reminded me of, was when Allen hurt his L shoulder and went to the locker room just before halftime in the 2020 Raiders game.  The Bills were leading 17-13 and won 30-23, but Allen was 16/20 (80%) in the first half, and 8/14 (57%) in the 2nd half.

 

Allen had been rocking like 71% completion, 332 ypg in the first 4 games

Next 4 games, 61.5%, 212 ypg.  Allen was visibly wearing a linebacker brace on his L shoulder and was on the injury report.

 

Pundits were having a field day about how he was "regressing".  Terry Bradshaw sneered "a 50% completion passer, that's all he'll ever be".  The only one who "got it" was Matt Hasselbeck, who had a similar injury in his own career and said before the Seahawks game, "the good news for Josh Allen is that it will heal, and the bad news for the Seahawks is that just about now, Allen is probably starting to feel pretty good".  Allen threw for 415 yds, 82% completions against the Seahawks and basically didn't look back the rest of the year.

 

I think it's been a problem for Josh this year because a lot of his completions were about zipping the ball into a tight window, instead of about scheming a guy open and/or taking the easy throw.  So losing that precision, meant more of those tight window throws become incompletions/interceptions and struggles to move the ball.

 

I'd like to think we're having a window where the offense struggles a bit while Allen's elbow "gets right", but the "forseeable future" bit isn't encouraging.

 

28 minutes ago, Gugny said:

I think this is fear mongering at its finest (by the media; not the OP).

 

He's not 100%, but who is at week 15? 

 

It's colder than a witch's tit out there and I'm sure that makes him require more stretching/work to be done on his throwing arm. 

 

If his receivers didn't drop a billion passes last week, he'd have had a great game an no one would be batting an eye at this.  The vast majority of his passes were accurate.  He's fine.

 

I like your take.  And yeah, I guess you're correct that colder weather means more stretching is needed before he throws.

 

I dunno that Brown is "fearmongering" (I get it people think he's not really a Bills fan); I think it's legitimately something he hadn't seen before that went on for long enough that it attracted his attention, but, as you say, a change in the routine due to a change in the weather could be the explanation.

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Beck Water

[TBBills Fan]

Side note.  Josh Allen' Elbow would make a fantastic screen name lol

[LeGOATski]

2 hours ago, SageAgainstTheMachine said:

It's clear to me now that the Bills are going to euthanize Josh.

The grounds crew was seen building a shed on the back 40

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I agree but why wasn't that the plan 3 years ago. Why is the obvious taking so damn long. This organization should've put priority 1 building a monster OL around Josh rather than dicking around drafting marginal DE's.

They've brought in plenty of OLs. I don't think the problem is lack of trying, I think it's a problem with their talent evaluation and/or development on the OL. There was a lot of hope that Aaron Kromer could do something with these guys.

[SydneyBillsFan]

5 hours ago, RiotAct said:

Amputate.

 

Which arm?

[CEN-CAL17]

Here’s the deal…. Whenever you have potential injuries, soreness etc…. You don’t just treat the direct area. The human body we all know is connected and functions all together. 
 

Example, if you have feet issues… you don’t just massage and stretch your feet. You stretch your Achilles, your calves, you hamstrings…. They are all connected and function together.

 

For Josh’s elbow, I would assume the work his elbow, his biceps, triceps, upper and lower arms, his shoulders, delts, lats everything has deals with throwing….

[nucci]

8 hours ago, Beck Water said:

I thought there was a thread on this from a week or 2 ago, but couldn't find it.

 

It was noted that Allen was getting his shoulder and elbow stretched out, ON THE FIELD, before practice today

 

Banged up Bills had this to say about it (I'm not sure what he means by "distraction observed too", Anyone?

 

 

There's another video clip where at the end, Josh can be seen lying on the ground with his shoulder/elbow being worked on.

 

I wish we could persuade our guy to stop running down the field like a human Wrecking Ball and slide more.

He got hurt getting hit in the pocket, not by running

[LeGOATski]

15 minutes ago, nucci said:

He got hurt getting hit in the pocket, not by running

Yep, where most of the bad injuries happen

[Captain Hindsight]

5 hours ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Here’s the deal…. Whenever you have potential injuries, soreness etc…. You don’t just treat the direct area. The human body we all know is connected and functions all together. 
 

Example, if you have feet issues… you don’t just massage and stretch your feet. You stretch your Achilles, your calves, you hamstrings…. They are all connected and function together.

 

For Josh’s elbow, I would assume the work his elbow, his biceps, triceps, upper and lower arms, his shoulders, delts, lats everything has deals with throwing….

I was having back issues, went to my doctor and he gave me shoe insoles for my feet to help me walk more consistently. Basically retrained my feet how to walk. No more back problems 

[Dr. Who]

8 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Yeah, it just seemed like all of a sudden (starting in the 2nd half of the GB game) the ball just wasn't going where he wanted it to go. 

 

I don't think that's a "simple dip in his play".  What it reminded me of, was when Allen hurt his L shoulder and went to the locker room just before halftime in the 2020 Raiders game.  The Bills were leading 17-13 and won 30-23, but Allen was 16/20 (80%) in the first half, and 8/14 (57%) in the 2nd half.

 

Allen had been rocking like 71% completion, 332 ypg in the first 4 games

Next 4 games, 61.5%, 212 ypg.  Allen was visibly wearing a linebacker brace on his L shoulder and was on the injury report.

 

Pundits were having a field day about how he was "regressing".  Terry Bradshaw sneered "a 50% completion passer, that's all he'll ever be".  The only one who "got it" was Matt Hasselbeck, who had a similar injury in his own career and said before the Seahawks game, "the good news for Josh Allen is that it will heal, and the bad news for the Seahawks is that just about now, Allen is probably starting to feel pretty good".  Allen threw for 415 yds, 82% completions against the Seahawks and basically didn't look back the rest of the year.

 

I think it's been a problem for Josh this year because a lot of his completions were about zipping the ball into a tight window, instead of about scheming a guy open and/or taking the easy throw.  So losing that precision, meant more of those tight window throws become incompletions/interceptions and struggles to move the ball.

 

I'd like to think we're having a window where the offense struggles a bit while Allen's elbow "gets right", but the "forseeable future" bit isn't encouraging.

 

 

I like your take.  And yeah, I guess you're correct that colder weather means more stretching is needed before he throws.

 

I dunno that Brown is "fearmongering" (I get it people think he's not really a Bills fan); I think it's legitimately something he hadn't seen before that went on for long enough that it attracted his attention, but, as you say, a change in the routine due to a change in the weather could be the explanation.

 

I also suspect that Josh has been dealing with injury issues beyond ordinary wear and tear from the football season. I wonder now if it is a nagging problem that has more effect on short and mid-range throws. That may also be a factor in where he is choosing to look and what throws he favors. Of course, all speculative and perhaps nonsense.

[Mr. WEO]

12 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Indeed.

 

When the injury occurred, it was said to be "short term - 2-4 weeks"

Now Allen is saying he'll be dealing with it for "the foreseeable future" (on the Pat McAfee show)

 

There's also a shadowy rumor around that Allen was dealing with some sort of shoulder sprain or strain dating from the GB game (when he took some big hits, running)

 

 

every player is nursing some sort of injury at this time and for the rest of the season.  I think much is being made about this. 

[Airseven]

30 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

every player is nursing some sort of injury at this time and for the rest of the season.  I think much is being made about this. 

 

True. But not every injury is the throwing elbow of the most important player on the field.

[BuffaloMatt]

11 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

He describes how they are dealing with the injury here. it takes a village (and some shots) …starts around 02:5

 

Who doesn't like shots? 

[hondo in seattle]

15 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

I think Beane and company invest heavily in the O line during the off season. Once the line gets better then the running game will kick in and they won’t have to rely on Allen running as much

 

Exactly.

 

This is one reason I don't want OBJ.  With only so many cap dollars to go around, I'd rather spend on a bodyguard for Josh that can double as hole-makes for our backs.  

[ProcessTruster]

the guy is likely compromised to some extent and they are doing whatever they can to keep him on the field.   just like most NFL players after week 14

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Airseven said:

 

True. But not every injury is the throwing elbow of the most important player on the field.

 

True, but he seems to be throwing well.

[Mrbojanglezs]

Wouldn't be surprised if it's not fully healed and he will get surgery end of year

[Luka]

Carson Palmer Discusses Josh Allen's UCL Injury

 

Palmer's description of his experience with the injury seems to fit what Josh is experiencing since it happened. Josh's off angle and off platform throws have been much less effective since hurting the UCL and has played a major role in our reduced offensive output. 

[GreggTX]

It's clear that he's not 100%. All the more reason to upgrade the OL. He's getting hammered every week and the run blocking isn't much better. We need to focus on our offense in the next draft. I'm also starting to worry about Dorsey.

 

 

 

[Lenigmusx]

2 hours ago, GreggTX said:

It's clear that he's not 100%. All the more reason to upgrade the OL. He's getting hammered every week and the run blocking isn't much better. We need to focus on our offense in the next draft. I'm also starting to worry about Dorsey.

 

 

 

McDermott bring Mike Shula in as an OC/Quality Control consultant would indicate that the Bills brass is moderately concerned as well. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

7 hours ago, Luka said:

Carson Palmer Discusses Josh Allen's UCL Injury

 

Palmer's description of his experience with the injury seems to fit what Josh is experiencing since it happened. Josh's off angle and off platform throws have been much less effective since hurting the UCL and has played a major role in our reduced offensive output. 

75% Tear?!?

4 hours ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Josh Allen's Elbow?

Sounds like a good screen name..

With reduced velocity, defenders have an additional few tenths of a second, to break up a play.

I noticed during the last few home games, that Allen's ball velocity, was 'off', (in my opinion)

It’s almost like you guys are rooting for this.

 

 

[97bills]

I just hope next year we draft oline help and WR. And I do want Allen to stop playing like he’s a linebacker when he runs. 

[H2o]

17 hours ago, Luka said:

Carson Palmer Discusses Josh Allen's UCL Injury

 

Palmer's description of his experience with the injury seems to fit what Josh is experiencing since it happened. Josh's off angle and off platform throws have been much less effective since hurting the UCL and has played a major role in our reduced offensive output. 

I have a feeling that Josh's is less severe, but still affecting him none the less. You can tell his passes don't really have the same velocity and he does have a couple of wth type of throws every game now. He's just not the Josh we've grown accustomed to seeing the last 2-1/2 years prior to this happening. I think more may come out about it after the season, but right now Josh is just pushing through it and still doing everything he can. 

[Shemp]

If or when the Bills clinch the AFC East title, I'd like to see the Bills rest Allen for the playoffs. The elbow needs rest and the Bills need full-strength Josh heading into the playoffs. 

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, Blah Blah said:

If or when the Bills clinch the AFC East title, I'd like to see the Bills rest Allen for the playoffs. The elbow needs rest and the Bills need full-strength Josh heading into the playoffs. 

Get the 1 seed and they can rest him a week.

 

 

[Beck Water]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:10 PM, Straight Hucklebuck said:

1st time Allen hurt the UCL

-Immediately out for 4-games, and pulled himself out

 

2nd time Allen hurt the UCL (3.5 years later)

- Doesn’t miss a game, stays in and throws 70 yards 

 

If the tear was as bad or worse that the first time explain this?

 

I take your point about the 13-week long ankle sprains.

 

However don't you think the difference in the team's status, and Allen's status with the team makes a difference in how the injury is handled?

 

The first time Allen sprained his UCL, he was a hard-playing but struggling rookie, trying to figure out how to prepare and play in the NFL.  The Bills had just done what they should have done before the season - bring in a vet QB to 'show him how it's done' (and not totally kill us with picks if he played a couple games).  The Bills had just invested a first round pick+ into him and needed him to develop.  The team had nothing to lose and a lot to gain in the future by sitting him.  It made sense to put him on ice and not let him rush back.  "Watch and Learn, Rook"

 

This season, the team's hopes of a championship rest on Allen playing if he can.  He's most of the offense.  If he can play, the team needs him to play.

 

That said, I don't believe the tear was worse - the initial reports were that it was not as severe as his rookie season tear.

 

From what Carson Palmer, with a more severe sprain, said, it didn't hurt and he was able to make throws normally.  It was just every 3 or 4th throw would behave abnormally - go off target or wind up in the dirt.  So Allen dirting a throw on the run in front of Diggs, then next throw right on target to Davis, fits with what Palmer said about his more severe UCL injury.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, H2o said:

I have a feeling that Josh's is less severe, but still affecting him none the less. You can tell his passes don't really have the same velocity and he does have a couple of wth type of throws every game now. He's just not the Josh we've grown accustomed to seeing the last 2-1/2 years prior to this happening. I think more may come out about it after the season, but right now Josh is just pushing through it and still doing everything he can. 

 

Allen's passes have every bit of the same velocity at times.  That Piss Missile to Diggs at the end of the Lions game to set up the GW FG?  LOL. 

 

What appears different to me is:

1) Josh doesn't have the same pinpoint accuracy and control when he's throwing off platform.  This is a concern especially over the middle of the field where the ball being off 3 feet may mean a pick.

2) when he's able to set and throw on-platform, his throws look normal to me - but he doesn't get the chance to do that as much as I'd like, especially last couple games (Detroit, NE, Jets).  It makes sense - if Josh is using his hips to power the throw and his arm to guide it, the elbow isn't under as much load?

3) he's lost a bit of control, he's throwing harder especially off platform.  I think that was actually a problem contributing to the large # of drops our receivers had vs. Jets - in the cold rain, Josh didn't feel comfortable taking a little off and reverted to throwing the heat.  In the cold rain, when the ball smacked into their slippery-er WR gloves, harder to hang on to it.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Beck Water

[JackKemp]

16 hours ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Josh Allen's Elbow?

Sounds like a good screen name..

With reduced velocity, defenders have an additional few tenths of a second, to break up a play.

I noticed during the last few home games, that Allen's ball velocity, was 'off', (in my opinion)

I was thinking a good band name.

[Beck Water]

12 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

75% Tear?!?

 

It's not the % tear that I think the OP (and I) find interesting, it's his description of its effect on his passing - didn't hurt, finished the game, next day some of his passes were normal and some died and dropped into the dirt like they were "shot out of the sky" - and that he said it wasn't every pass

 

12 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

It’s almost like you guys are rooting for this.

 

I think you mis-spelled "horribly worried about"

[Dr.Sack]

Nothing that an offseason rehab of cold beer and wings can’t fix. 

[BADOLBILZ]

12 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Allen's passes have every bit of the same velocity at times.  That Piss Missile to Diggs at the end of the Lions game to set up the GW FG?  LOL. 

 

What appears different to me is:

1) Josh doesn't have the same pinpoint accuracy and control when he's throwing off platform.  This is a concern especially over the middle of the field where the ball being off 3 feet may mean a pick.

2) when he's able to set and throw on-platform, his throws look normal to me - but he doesn't get the chance to do that as much as I'd like, especially last couple games (Detroit, NE, Jets).  It makes sense - if Josh is using his hips to power the throw and his arm to guide it, the elbow isn't under as much load?

3) he's lost a bit of control, he's throwing harder especially off platform.  I think that was actually a problem contributing to the large # of drops our receivers had vs. Jets - in the cold rain, Josh didn't feel comfortable taking a little off and reverted to throwing the heat.  In the cold rain, when the ball smacked into their slippery-er WR gloves, harder to hang on to it.

 

 

Agree with all of that but #3.

 

The drops and failures to win contested catch situations have been going on all season and they range from the softest of tosses to ropes.

 

It's primarily the product of having receivers who don't naturally catch the ball well/easily.  

 

Hard hands.

 

Knox entered the league with stone hands.   Davis wasn't a great catcher at UCF.    Singletary.........McKenzie..........I mean, c'mon let's not overthink it. 

 

The kind of receivers who have the athletic ability of a Knox or Davis..........but also soft hands........usually cost you first and second round picks.

 

The Bills are basically getting what they have paid for at the position.

[CDogg20]

On 12/14/2022 at 8:17 PM, Beck Water said:

I thought there was a thread on this from a week or 2 ago, but couldn't find it.

 

It was noted that Allen was getting his shoulder and elbow stretched out, ON THE FIELD, before practice today

 

Banged up Bills had this to say about it (I'm not sure what he means by "distraction observed too", Anyone?

 

 

There's another video clip where at the end, Josh can be seen lying on the ground with his shoulder/elbow being worked on.

 

I wish we could persuade our guy to stop running down the field like a human Wrecking Ball and slide more.

Ironically enough he was injured in the pocket

[Real McClappy]

 

I love this site but honestly can't stand the TBD doctors = CLOWNS

Edited December 17, 2022 by Real McNasty

[Beck Water]

13 hours ago, CDogg20 said:

Ironically enough he was injured in the pocket

 

Where he was injured wasn't my point.  Right now, the perception (right or wrong) is that his passing isn't the same as it was prior to the 1st half of the GB game.  He can make some throws that are brilliant, every bit as pinpoint and fast as before the injury.  But he also has throws that are off-target, or that seem like they're slower - especially when he's throwing off-platform or on the move.

 

I think we all want to see Allen heal at the best possible rate.  Towards that, running downfield and giving 300 lb moose defenders a free pass to slam their helmets into his elbow and wrench on his arm in the cause of trying to force a fumble (or just "business as usual" as he's buried in a pile of tacklers) can not be expediting the healing process.  That's what I was trying to say.

[WideNine]

On 12/15/2022 at 3:13 PM, BUFFALOBART said:

Josh Allen's Elbow?

Sounds like a good screen name..

With reduced velocity, defenders have an additional few tenths of a second, to break up a play.

I noticed during the last few home games, that Allen's ball velocity, was 'off', (in my opinion)

 

That description from Palmer about his own experience during practice trying to throw also explains some of the quizzical looks Allen has had after some poor throws, like, "what the hell was that?"...

 

I was thinking that he was just trying to take too much off his balls to make catches easier, but the lack of velocity on some of those throws now makes a bit more sense.

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by WideNine

[Warriorspikes51]

On 12/15/2022 at 10:22 PM, Straight Hucklebuck said:

75% Tear?!?

It’s almost like you guys are rooting for this.

 

 

Josh has a “slight tear”

[Beck Water]

On 12/15/2022 at 5:05 PM, Lenigmusx said:

McDermott bring Mike Shula in as an OC/Quality Control consultant would indicate that the Bills brass is moderately concerned as well. 

 

Huh? Shula has been here since the off-season.  He was just profiled recently because of his dad's connection to the Fins

 

Mike Shula was OC in Carolina 2013-2018 when Ken Dorsey was his QB coach.  Dorsey may have even asked for him.

 

I actually have had the thought that Dorsey is dealing with a bit of a "too many Cooks, spoil the Broth" situation.  He's got former college passing game coordinator and NFL OC Joe Brady as his QB coach, 3x NFL OC Mike Shula as "offensive assistant", and former NFL OC and run game coordinator Aaron Kromer as his OL coach.  That's a lot of egos to keep calm and organized in the same direction.

 

7 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Josh has a “slight tear”

 

Yes, we know (although, how "slight" is the question).

 

It's Palmer's description of what happened to the throws he was making after the injury that's of interest.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Beck Water

[without a drought]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:43 AM, JackKemp said:

I was thinking a good band name.

Why?  

 

Can't imagine a scenario where that would be true.

[VW82]

The fact that Josh is gutting this out when he's clearly compromised instead of sitting him for a 3-4 game stretch and a late season playoff push makes me think they know this isn't just going to heal on its own and he needs surgery. 

 

In the event that Josh does get Tommy John after the season, what direction do you guys think Beane should take with the team? We're about to enter cap hell with all the deals we signed. Does it make sense to trade away guys like Diggs, Dawkins, or Tre, for example, and go for a one year stealth rebuild a la 08 Pats?

 

At some point we need to start thinking about the next five years even though that point is clearly after the season.

[beebe]

not sure if this has been discussed or followed up on, maybe it was nothing, but allen got hit on his elbow on this sack and then didn't have to throw again for the rest of the game since they were running out the clock. assume he's fine, but curious if anyone noticed any re-aggravation (if that's even possible at this point.) 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

24 minutes ago, beebe said:

not sure if this has been discussed or followed up on, maybe it was nothing, but allen got hit on his elbow on this sack and then didn't have to throw again for the rest of the game since they were running out the clock. assume he's fine, but curious if anyone noticed any re-aggravation (if that's even possible at this point.) 

 

Yeah remember seeing that and thinking was very similar to Jet game play