Greg Cossell not pulling any punches on Bills: "This is not a super talented offense"

[Captain Caveman]

https://vlipsy.com/vlip/the-royal-tenenbaums-why-would-you-make-a-point-to-say-someone-is-not-a-genius-ikxIvKWB

Edited December 1, 2022 by Captain Caveman

[Beck Water]

48 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

I actually think this is a Super talented offense with a not so talented play caller

 

I mean...is the play caller causing route-running mistakes or WR failing to haul in catchable throws, or having drops?

[BillMafia716ix]

Oh man I disagree. Bills are in the top of pretty much every statistical category but they don’t have talent on offense? So Diggs and Allen must be doing all the work? How many catches did Diggs have in the playoff game vs. KC? Everything in the NFL is dependent on QB play. You’re not going to have elite players at every position on offense. At most you’ll have 2 maybe  3. You just need other players to fill a role. 
 

It’s up to the coaching and scheme to put  players in the best position to be successful. It’s funny how Daboll was able to get the most out of guys like McKenzie and Knox but under Dorsey they don’t seem to be involved as much. That’s on coaching. And don’t even get me started on the usage of Devin Singletary. A guy who gets 5 yards a carry but sometimes starts offensive drives on the bench for a rookie RB James Cook who really hasn’t shown  much outside of one good game. 

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Beane said "it starts with protecting Josh" and he tried to keep intact the very good performing line from the end of the prior season.  They spent for Bates, brought in Saffold, and hired Kromer.  And while you may not have liked it, a lot of analysts did, much like this Fantasy Football Index article that had the Bills offensive line ranked as the 5th best heading into the season.

 

The writeup says

" 5. Buffalo Bills - A line that improved over the course of last season might be even a little better now.  Dion Dawkins and Mitch Morse return as anchors of this unit, and they'll be fine with Spencer Brown at right tackle.  It's at the guard spots where there should be some improvement.  They added Rodger Saffold, and he's been a good road-grader guard for years.  The Titans released him, but it was a cap-driven move; Saffold is 34 but has played at least 15 games six years in a row.  At right guard, they plugged in Ryan Bates late in the year and liked how he played.  The Bears tried to poach him with a four-year deal worth $17 million, buth the Bills matched the offer to keep him around."

 

The line played well for about 4 games down the stretch after being comfortably our worst unit for most of the season. 

 

I don't care what some fantasy website says. I bet I watched more Bills all22 last year than they did. The line needed upgrades. Not bringing the same unit back and then signing an overrated 34 year old. Beane alluded to it himself. He didn't follow through sufficiently. 

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

 

That was an era when teams were winning games 23-20 on a regular basis. You can't win championships like that anymore, not with all these elite athletic QBs and the rule changes that make offense easier than ever. The Patriots way of winning during their dynasty wouldn't work today IMO.

[Paup 1995MVP]

4 hours ago, SCBills said:

Yup.  

 

For all the "armchair quarterback" commentary about fanbases, many in the Bills fanbase were correctly concerned about WR heading into the season.  

 

We were told we had "pass catchers" and not to view them as inside, outside receivers or running backs.  It sounded dumb them, and it's proven to be dumb now. 

 

Not saying Davis and McKenzie can't make a jump or that Dorsey won't figure out how to utilize Knox and Hines, but we're getting late into the season and so far Cosell is spot on.  The obsession to constantly load up on defense (sans Von Miller) has proven to be more than just a fanbase frustration.. It's been borderline malpractice in how to treat a franchise QB ala Rodgers in Green Bay. 

Jamison Crowder being injured has been a big loss.  The guy is a solid NFL WR.  Not spectacular.  But very solid.  Also keeping Kumerow over Hudgins on the 53 man roster was just plain stupid.  Lets get Hines involved to pick up some of the slack.  Guy has blazing speed.  I think the bigger problem is the O line.  Its just not very good compared to a lot of the top lines.  With a good O line, Josh Allen would be unstoppable.  Doesn't really matter who our skill position guys are.  

[finn]

4 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

I may be wrong, but I believe he always had excellent offensive lines, much like Mahomes. Rarely is this essential factor taking into account when talking heads--or anyone else, for that matter, compare quarterbacks. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

5 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Interesting thoughts here on the Ross Tucker podcast from NFL insider Greg Cossell. Basically stating the obvious with JA17 being surrounded by a bad oline not much else outside of Diggs:

 

 

I hope he's wrong but fear he's right.

[TH3]

5 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Interesting thoughts here on the Ross Tucker podcast from NFL insider Greg Cossell. Basically stating the obvious with JA17 being surrounded by a bad oline not much else outside of Diggs:

 

 

Whatever 

[Einstein's Dog]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The line played well for about 4 games down the stretch after being comfortably our worst unit for most of the season. 

 

I don't care what some fantasy website says. I bet I watched more Bills all22 last year than they did. The line needed upgrades. Not bringing the same unit back and then signing an overrated 34 year old. Beane alluded to it himself. He didn't follow through sufficiently. 

My point is that it looked like Beane did try and address the "protecting of Josh".  He tried (and did) execute a plan of keeping the, finally, good playing OL from the previous year and adding a piece.  It took him paying a rather large price for Bates.  And he did add Saffold and Kromer.

 

I understand you didn't like the plan from the get-go, but others did - as evidenced by the writeup in the magazine.  

[BearNorth]

People forget that Wade Phillips basically built the Rams defense that won the super bowl last year.  He never had a QB as talented as Josh, but he is a Jedi Master as a DC.

[NickelCity]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The line played well for about 4 games down the stretch after being comfortably our worst unit for most of the season. 

 

I don't care what some fantasy website says. I bet I watched more Bills all22 last year than they did. The line needed upgrades. Not bringing the same unit back and then signing an overrated 34 year old. Beane alluded to it himself. He didn't follow through sufficiently. 

 

This, by a mile. OLine stuck out like a sore thumb and was never addressed as required.

[Eastport bills]

36 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

I think Gabe Davis is a fine #3 wideout, I also didnt say he was untalented.  I just think he is a substandard #2.   My reasoning for saying the yardage and touchdown statistics are overly-simplistic is due to the volume of passes the Bills throw.   I point to catch ratio because, he's played enough games in his career to show that regardless of volume he is a sub 60% guy for his career, it's not just this year, he has been under 60% every year hes been in the league

Again, what’s the difference between a fine 3 and a substandard 2 when he’s the only option at number 2 and he’s had success in the playoffs both in his rookie season and last season. As mentioned, he’s been playing hurt this season which is huge, and he’s been productive. Do you think his drop against the Jets is the reason we lost? Other than that, the defense was substandard in the Minn and and Jets losses,and we’re 8 and 0 in the other games. I don’t count that Miami game because there could have been fatalities due to the NFL oblivious conduct regarding the heat. By the way, were you worried about catch ratio when he destroyed the Pats and Chiefs in the playoffs. 

[Homey D. Clown]

5 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

seriously, you're not wrong.

[BRH]

We really still feeding this troll?

[mjt328]

Over the last month, there has been a lot of infighting around Bills Mafia.  Lots of fans are frustrated and disappointed at this team's performance.  Other fans are getting mad, saying the concerns are overblown and this team is still in very good shape.

 

Well, you can start to see that outsiders are starting to notice too.  They are starting to realize this team just may have been overrated at the start of the season, and we may not be looking at a Super Bowl season (and maybe not even a deep playoff run) after all.

 

The monster breakout season for Gabe Davis has been extremely underwhelming.  To say the least.

For various reasons, Dawson Knox doesn't seem to be making a big impact this year.  Also disappointing.

Production from the slot has not matched previous years.

Our running game remains a complimentary attack, and not something that can be relied on week to week.

The O-Line is still Dion Dawkins, Mitch Morse and some other questionable pieces.

Not to mention a rookie OC who seems totally outmatched and lost.

 

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

My point is that it looked like Beane did try and address the "protecting of Josh".  He tried (and did) execute a plan of keeping the, finally, good playing OL from the previous year and adding a piece.  It took him paying a rather large price for Bates.  And he did add Saffold and Kromer.

 

I understand you didn't like the plan from the get-go, but others did - as evidenced by the writeup in the magazine.  

 

He made one mid range FA move to improve it. I didn't like that move. But leave that aside he didn't do enough.

[Billz4ever]

5 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

Tom Brady had a line that could protect him and give him time.  If Brady had our line, he'd be on his back most of every game and would probably be out for the season at this point since he's nowhere near as mobile as Josh.

[Ramza86]

Ive been screaming for a real offensive line since Allen started his first game. 

 

Josh Allen masks just how bad they have been throughout his time here. 

 

Weve been able to spend money elsewhere to make the team stronger since they know Allen could handle poor Oline play...but the injury plague weve had is making it hard for this defense to succeed like its supposed to.

The plague started week 3, and our defense has never been full strength since then.

 

Losing Hyde was huge and then all of our guys are randomly missing games with injuries. We gotta get healthy defensively.

[WideNine]

1 hour ago, WhoTom said:

It's not a super-talented offense, yet it manages to put up an average of 28 points per game, second only to KC.

 

 

 

I think maybe Cosell was more alluding to elite talent.

 

Allen and Diggs can win most individual matchups against the best in the league, but others need to win their matchups via scheme and creating mismatches.

 

We have an offense right now that leans a bit too much on Allen and Diggs to carry it.

 

I think his point is Dorsey probably needs to figure out how to spread that around a bit better for sustainable success.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eastport bills]

39 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

This is another reason why some fans like myself wanted Beane to make a meaningful move to help Josh out.  I myself stated that teams are just loading up on Diggs and daring other to beat them.  Look at all the weapons and great line Mahomes was given and Allen gets Diggs and a bunch of scrubs. I really they sign OBJ and don't care what low football IQ think.  Those are the guys crying and blaming Allen where they lose in the playoffs.  This group is the worse offensive group in the past 3-4 seasons.  There is no one player who can take over if Diggs gets doubled and tripled teamed,  

 

Just glad Greg called it,  they really need to bring in OBJ and never mind with John Brown who could not make it with 3 other teams since leaving Buffalo

OBJ is a me first, injury riddled diva who had some good games in LA before his predictable injury. He wants big money and he’s a jerk if he doesn’t get targets. He was a net loss in NY, who dumped him for peanuts and he tried to destroy the Browns because Baker didn’t trust him to catch the ball. We could use another receiver because they never replaced Beasley, but OBJ is a one man team wrecker, who can’t stay on the field.

[par73]

Davis was supposed to be the #2 receiver (has not panned out), and McKenzie was supposed to replace Beasley (pretty invisible, aside from the Detroit game). After just about every game, people ask: "Where was Knox?" OL is not good at run blocking, and Singletary is average, at best.

[BeastMaster]

I think the offense is missing that WR with game breaking speed that can make dynamic plays

 

The OL could be better, but I think they are middle of the pack

 

KC is basically the same thing...one top guy and their QB

 

I also believe that better play calling could help us

[Big Turk]

14 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Tom Brady had a line that could protect him and give him time.  If Brady had our line, he'd be on his back most of every game and would probably be out for the season at this point since he's nowhere near as mobile as Josh.

 

Exactly, which is why the line is far less of an issue for Allen than it is for most QBs.

[thenorthremembers]

17 minutes ago, Eastport bills said:

Again, what’s the difference between a fine 3 and a substandard 2 when he’s the only option at number 2 and he’s had success in the playoffs both in his rookie season and last season. As mentioned, he’s been playing hurt this season which is huge, and he’s been productive. Do you think his drop against the Jets is the reason we lost? Other than that, the defense was substandard in the Minn and and Jets losses,and we’re 8 and 0 in the other games. I don’t count that Miami game because there could have been fatalities due to the NFL oblivious conduct regarding the heat. By the way, were you worried about catch ratio when he destroyed the Pats and Chiefs in the playoffs. 

I've said it in other posts, I think Gabe is a great teammate and I applaud him for playing hurt when other guys wouldnt.  The argument here is whether the Bills have superior talent on the offensive side of the ball other than Josh.   He is for sure the only option they have as a number 2 that I also dont disagree with.  Do I think his drops in games we lost are the main reason we lost, no, but they are part of the reason.     HIs route running has also been part of the reason we've lost games.     Again, at this point in his career his game just isnt good enough.  It's not his fault he's been pushed into that role.

 

I wasn't worried about his catch rate against the Pats and Chiefs because we had other fail-safes built in.    I am glad the guy is on the team, I just wish we had a better #2 so Gabe's deficiencies weren't as visible.

[Billz4ever]

7 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Exactly, which is why the line is far less of an issue for Allen than it is for most QBs.

You don't want your franchise player having to scramble every play and it's just a statistical fact that a QB is less accurate when having to throw on the run.

 

The line is indeed a huge problem since Josh can't go through his normal progression and is having to improvise on the run.  Those are not high percentage plays and are quite often plays that lead to Josh trying to do too much.

 

Nevermind they suck at run blocking too.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Billz4ever

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

I think the offense is missing that WR with game breaking speed that can make dynamic plays

 

The OL could be better, but I think they are middle of the pack

 

That's essentially what Greg Cosell said, despite the OP of this thread misquoting him.  He said the OL is not "very good", not that they're "bad"

He has previously said that they're "average or a bit above average" (ie, middle of the pack)

 

We have WRs with game breaking speed, it's the "get open and catch the ball" part that's a question

 

6 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

KC is basically the same thing...one top guy and their QB

 

Not really same.  They have a very good OL and two RBs who are headed for another >1500 Y/Sc year, a solid to very good vet WR in S-S, and speedy guys in Valdez-Scantling and (when healthy) Hardman.  So they have an average-ish run game exclusive of their QB and better targets behind Kelce.

 

6 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

I also believe that better play calling could help us

 

Perhaps it's what you mean, but .... better play design?

[blacklabel]

I think something else to keep in mind is how often they've shuffled the OL this season. I don't even recall the last time they played their starting five to begin a game. When you go down a starter or two on the OL it can change your game plan drastically. A guy like Dawkins is someone you can generally leave one on one but would it be the same for Quesadillasberry? Now maybe they gotta adjust protection, Motor has to go chip the end, or now they need Knox in line more than out wide, just a couple examples. And not just the OL but nearly every starter on offense has ended up on the injury report and missed some time. That stuff can really make a difference. And they've been dealing with it all season. Despite this, they've been able to win more often than not. 

 

I dunno. I have a feeling they've also kept a number of plays and personnel groupings in their back pocket until later in the season. Just seems like they haven't totally shown what they can do and a lot of that falls back on injuries and the other part is likely execution. 

 

Just imagine if they head into the playoffs with a nearly 100% starting lineup on both sides of the ball.... The Injury Devil must be exorcised. 

[Boatdrinks]

Aside from Allen and Diggs, they’re not. It’s a nice offense , not one that just blows you away with talent alt every position. So we’ve known thisWe have as fans come to expect a level of performance from Josh Allen that elevates the talent around him. When Josh’s performance takes a dip, the shine comes off much of the offense as a whole. Just hoping he gets the Mojo back and turns it up even higher like he did last season. 

[Buffalo03]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

I mean...is the play caller causing route-running mistakes or WR failing to haul in catchable throws, or having drops?

No, but did these same players have those same problems last season? Our offense isn't that much different personel wise

[What a Tuel]

5 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Interesting thoughts here on the Ross Tucker podcast from NFL insider Greg Cossell. Basically stating the obvious with JA17 being surrounded by a bad oline not much else outside of Diggs:

 

 

 

This you?

 

 

[White Linen]

Totally agree with his assessment. 

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, Eastport bills said:

So when I use statistics I’m oversimplifying and you use statistics on catch ratio which could have stemmed from 2 or 3 drops over a few games to render him untalented. Why the negativity and the need to diminish our talent level? Because Greg Cosell said so during a blog interview. Funny, I’ve been listening to him every week on the “Herd” , and he never once mentioned a lack of talent on our offense. Maybe he had nothing fresh or noteworthy to say.  We are watching a rookie ( Cook) evolving into a contributor and Hines being integrated into our offense. One offensive explosion and you’re back on the bandwagon.

 

Whoa, take a breath, Fella! Punctuation Saves Lives!

 

Cosell has been expressing similar concerns regularly on his weekly "OBL" pieces with Chris Brown and Steve Tasker - that the Bills offense depends too much upon Josh Allen vs. having a run game and scheming WR open, and that the OL is "average or slightly above average" but not good.  This has been a theme, so I dunno what he says on the "Herd" as I don't watch it, and of course someone can disagree with Cosell,but it's his genuine opinion not because he had "nothing fresh to say"

 

I would be happy to see an offensive explosion

 

Gabe Davis sub-par catch % can not entirely be explained by 2 or 3 scored drops (balls that reach the receiver within a certain frame and are ruled to be catchable with "ordinary effort".  Gabe has 6 of those this season.  He also had 5 last season, so this isn't a fluke.  If you add half his drops to his catches, he'd have a catch % of 60% instead of 55%, which would be OK, but still a bit low (all but 2 of the 22 WR above Gabe for yards have >61%)

 

I love Gabe as a player but I wish he could hold onto the rock a bit better.  Would help him, would help Josh, would help the Bills.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Beck Water

[Eastport bills]

17 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

I've said it in other posts, I think Gabe is a great teammate and I applaud him for playing hurt when other guys wouldnt.  The argument here is whether the Bills have superior talent on the offensive side of the ball other than Josh.   He is for sure the only option they have as a number 2 that I also dont disagree with.  Do I think his drops in games we lost are the main reason we lost, no, but they are part of the reason.     HIs route running has also been part of the reason we've lost games.     Again, at this point in his career his game just isnt good enough.  It's not his fault he's been pushed into that role.

 

I wasn't worried about his catch rate against the Pats and Chiefs because we had other fail-safes built in.    I am glad the guy is on the team, I just wish we had a better #2 so Gabe's deficiencies weren't as visible.

The will be the last attempt at giving you some perspective on Davis. In a game where Diggs was taken away, Davis had enough route running to score 4 TDs against a team that knew we were throwing to him. He’s a guy who every team would pursue in free agency because of his production this season, as bad as you think his route running is. What fail-safes did we have in those games. Beasley was hurt, McKenzie was invisible and Sanders was hurt. How many Bills receivers have performed better than Davis in 4 playoff games in his first 2 years? I’ll give you a hint; NONE

[Beck Water]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

No, but did these same players have those same problems last season? Our offense isn't that much different personel wise

 

Gabe Davis actually did - he had 5 scored drops on 35 receptions last year (8%) vs so far 6 scored drops on 36 receptions (10%), and overall 55.6% catch rate vs 55% catch rate this year.  I don't know about the route running mistakes.

 

Gabe injured his ankle early last season and Bills media (Sal Capaccio I think) said it impacted him in practice almost halfway through the season.  This season, he missed Game 2, then seemed to have a great game and be all healed up vs. Pitt and KC.  I don't know if he injured it again, but he's not been on injury report since week 5.  It's a concern that his ankle may be a recurring problem.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, Logic said:

Cosell is right: the Bills offense, outside of Allen and Diggs, is nothing special. It depends too much on Allen being Superman every week.
 

 

 

This certainly wasn't your perspective last spring.    Same with @eball.  

 

Lotta' guffawing when it was sensibly pointed out that the Bills were thin at WR and expecting too much from unproven,  injury prone and low pedigree talents.

[RunTheBall]

I’m really beginning to think Dorsey is the problem. Yeah, he’s learning on the job, I get it. He needs to turn it around starting tonight. We have enough offensive talent, he just needs to do a better job of scheming them open especially those not named Diggs. This offense was much more dynamic with Daboll calling the plays, and the ball was spread around to more players. Knox didn’t disappear because he sucks. Josh didn’t forget how to throw deep crossers or shorter passes over the middle. Singletary doesn’t bench himself after the first quarter. 

 

Dorsey is the issue. I’m not saying he can’t get better, I just hope he does real quick or the division is in jeopardy and we will be competing for a wild card spot.

[Utah John]

The Bills offense is stuck in second gear because their Offensive Coordinator has used up all his innovations, and the rest of the league has caught on  

 

It was Josh plus Daboll that made the Bills offense so deadly the past couple of years.  Now it's just Josh being asked to be a hero every game.

[thewookie1]

The biggest issue is a combination of Davis and Mackenzie underachieving what we thought they might be able to do and Dorsey’s play calling. 
 

Davis and Mackenzie both have had great games last year and seemed to be turning a corner but neither truly did. They are still a high end 3WR and a gimmick WR. Additionally both still have drop and route running issues.

 

Daboll and Dorsey have opposite issues as to where their offenses would sink. Daboll would get too cute at times as well as change things when a change wasn’t even needed. (The many times we’d dominate one way and then for unknown reason avoid doing that for the remainder of the game) Dorsey is the opposite; he has great difficulty being creative and making changes on the fly. When we dominated a team at season’s start we’d keep hammering them to a pulp. In the Packers game he seemed to go full Daboll and change the scheme entirely which nearly cost us the game. Since then he either muddles through games or has no reaction to defensive adjustments. Additionally he lacks any semblance of consistency with creative calls to help Allen get into a groove or throw the defense off with routes.

[Eastport bills]

12 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Whoa, take a breath, Fella! Punctuation Saves Lives!

 

Cosell has been expressing similar concerns regularly on his weekly "OBL" pieces with Chris Brown and Steve Tasker - that the Bills offense depends too much upon Josh Allen vs. having a run game and scheming WR open, and that the OL is "average or slightly above average" but not good.  This has been a theme, so I dunno what he says on the "Herd" as I don't watch it, and of course someone can disagree with Cosell,but it's his genuine opinion not because he had "nothing fresh to say"

 

I would be happy to see an offensive explosion

 

Gabe Davis sub-par catch % can not be explained by 2 or 3 scored drops (balls that reach the receiver within a certain frame and are ruled to be catchable with "ordinary effort".  Gabe has 6 of those this season.  He had 5 last season.  If you add half his drops to his catches, he'd have a catch % of 60% instead of 55%, which would be OK, but still a bit low (all but 2 of the 22 WR above Gabe for yards have >61%)

 

I love Gabe as a player but I wish he could hold onto the rock a bit better.  Would help him, would help Josh, would help the Bills.

You’re lumping in catch ratio with the idea that Gabe’s talent level is substandard. Aren’t you forgetting about production,(tds, yds, receptions and a team’s record) and what’s the Knox deficiency? Motor has been productive with the limited touches in Dorsey’s offense and Cook looks like he’s explosive. This is a talented offense that has been flat for a few games in the middle of a long season against a tough schedule. You’re pointing to some games where drops happened, but let me remind you Davis has been great on the biggest stage, the playoffs. His performance in consecutive games against NE and KC are two of the best in Bills history. He was great against Indy in his rookie year. How quickly we forget.