thurst44 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 19 minutes ago, Tesla03 said: There were times last year where our oline completely collapsed towards the end of games. Ravens, Patriots, and wild card vs Texans games all had mediocre oline play, and were some of our biggest games of the season. Against the Eagles as well, their dline completely owned the LOS. Not to mention the countless pre snap penalties and boneheaded mistakes the oline guys make. Beane hasn't addressed the position yet so I'm wondering what our plan is next year. It is so vital for Allen to have a top notch oline, can't stress it enough. He took some very nasty hits last season that I had no idea how he walked away clean from. I'm still not convinced with either of our tackles. I truly think we need a franchise LT here long term. Not really. I like their plan. Last year the idea was to get one borderline pro bowler in Morse to anchor the line, keep Dawkins b/c you know how hard it is to find a reliable LT and then bring in as many bargain guys with upside as you can and a big-time prospect in Ford. The plan accounts for growing pains -- both Ford figuring out the NFL (definitely work-in-progress) and the guys getting into a groove as a unit. They got lucky in having few injuries -- now the 2020 plan is to let the unit grow together. There's incredible value to an O-Line that knows each other and plays together naturally.. So, I aggressively don't want them to focus on bringing in new O-Lineman -- if a major o-lineman drops into the mid-to-late 2nd round, I'd be game, but I think the line-up of Dawkins-Feliciano-Morse-Spain-Ford with Nsehke and Long as the primary backups for the second season in a row is a pretty solid line-up and while they may never be an elite line a la Cowboys or Colts, they could be a strength of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rc2catch Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 I was concerned in the offensive line status quo thread. But not anymore in this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 The O-Line overall was average last year (which was a huge step-up from 2018). I don't think we should be concerned about this unit. We haven't had any major upgrades. But if they perform exactly the same as last season, we will be OK. They won't be dominating anyone because of blocking. But blocking also won't be the primary cause for us losing games. Our biggest weak spot in 2019 was Right Tackle. Some of this was because of Cody Ford struggling as a rookie. Part of it was because of Ty Nsekhe getting hurt. The rest of the guys (Dion Dawkins, Quinton Spain, Mitch Morse and Jon Feliciano) are solid. Not All-Pros. But solid NFL starters. They have moments where they get beat, but for the most part are a reliable unit. We also have very good depth. Nsekhe, Spencer Long and Ryan Bates are each capable of stepping into a starting position without much drop-off. If Ford takes a step up in his sophomore season (which is the case for lots of players), then I think we can jump to an above-average O-Line. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddyjj Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 45 minutes ago, Tesla03 said: There were times last year where our oline completely collapsed towards the end of games. Ravens, Patriots, and wild card vs Texans games all had mediocre oline play, and were some of our biggest games of the season. Against the Eagles as well, their dline completely owned the LOS. Not to mention the countless pre snap penalties and boneheaded mistakes the oline guys make. Beane hasn't addressed the position yet so I'm wondering what our plan is next year. It is so vital for Allen to have a top notch oline, can't stress it enough. He took some very nasty hits last season that I had no idea how he walked away clean from. I'm still not convinced with either of our tackles. I truly think we need a franchise LT here long term. The Search feature is your friend Believe your concerns and 6 dozen responses included already 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wppete Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Not concerned. Think we have a solid line and it will be better next year as this unit grows together. They are all maulers and nasty guys, love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Joshin' Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 The majority of teams have concerns on their OL. The Bills are in good shape compared to most. If there was a good OT at 54 I may draft dependent upon who else is available. This is not because of a concern but a strategy to have the best 5 possible at a reasonable cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elijah Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 We had an overall average group last year which is nice, but you can and should continue to try and improve. If the oline plays as it did last year, there shouldn’t be much of an issue. But there’s still a possibility than Ford doesn’t grow at all or Dawkins regressed, or Spain/Feliciano, who had career years, regress back to their mean. We had a solid group but coming into the off-season I wanted to see us continue to improve, and still want to see us improve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) YES !! RT is not settled cody ford will struggle there....he's better suited for guard i would also add that last season ...RT was the weakest starting position on team the only improvement i see is Ty's health Edited March 21, 2020 by papazoid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 As someone else mentioned the offensive line needs to really, really improve to do anything once in the playoffs. Last season the Bills played a lot of bad teams and had a pretty easy schedule. Then when you think that the Buffalo Bills offensive line only graded 21st which is still the bottom third of the league after all those upgrades. Four of five players replaced and the leagues highest paid center. What would it take to get this line into the top ten? This FO needs to make a real commitment to upgrading the entire line. The Colts went #1 pick OG and #2 pick OG in 2018 and that line went from 25th in 2018 to #3 in 2019. An OG with the #6th pick overall went against so many norms and yet Quinton Nelson graded as the best OG in the entire league last season. A pro bowler at LG in Richie Incognito helped the 2017 Buffalo Bills grade at #7 overall. Cordy Glenn only played in 6 games before Dawkins moved over from RT and that was with Jordan Mills moving to RT, Eric Wood at C, Vlad Ducasse at RG. Kinda crazy right? Two bums at RG, RT, an all pro at LG a should be all pro at C, and a rookie at LT in Dawkins that played like a top five tackle. Looking at this, the key might be to find an "all pro" for the left guard position which should help both the center and left tackle. Not an easy task though. While Spain graded as average it might have been a bad move to not resign crazy town Incognito who went on to have a very good season with the Raiders. The Raiders graded at 15th. "While Incognito allowed only nine pressures in 414 snaps. Out of those 12 combined pressures, only one was a sack and one was a quarterback hit — with the other 10 being hurries. " https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-from-the-2017-nfl-season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: Several reasons. First, have you noticed how deep the Super Bowl champs are at WR and skills position in general? ***** Foster? The guy had 3 receptions last year. 3 dude. He shouldn’t be on the team. I like Duke at the last WR spot. This offense utilizes a lot of 4 and 5 WR sets and this WR class is an extremely stacked and deep class. It would be wise to draft one high especially with Brown and Beasley a year older and both on expiring contracts..... we are also one injury away to being exactly in the same place we were last year with a mediocre at best unit. The fact you even mentioned Duke and Foster is ridiculous. Those guys are nothing but fringe NFL players....I’m surprised you didn’t mention Ray Ray.? BPA can very likely be WR at 54. The Bills' WR group is as good as the Chefs now in terms of quality and depth. There is no need to add a WR high in the draft. Running back is also a draw although the Bills can, and probably will, add a complementary back for Devin. Where the Chefs have it over the Bills is Kelce. He's a special TE and if the Bills could add a guy guaranteed to be as good in the 2nd, much less 3rd or later, I'd say do it. But in absence of that, I'd favor developing the guy they took in the 3rd last year, as well as Sweeney, while seeing if Kroft can be worth anything. In short, I doubt WR will be the 2nd round pick, BPA or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Nihilarian said: As someone else mentioned the offensive line needs to really, really improve to do anything once in the playoffs. Last season the Bills played a lot of bad teams and had a pretty easy schedule. Then when you think that the Buffalo Bills offensive line only graded 21st which is still the bottom third of the league after all those upgrades. Four of five players replaced and the leagues highest paid center. What would it take to get this line into the top ten? This FO needs to make a real commitment to upgrading the entire line. The Colts went #1 pick OG and #2 pick OG in 2018 and that line went from 25th in 2018 to #3 in 2019. An OG with the #6th pick overall went against so many norms and yet Quinton Nelson graded as the best OG in the entire league last season. A pro bowler at LG in Richie Incognito helped the 2017 Buffalo Bills grade at #7 overall. Cordy Glenn only played in 6 games before Dawkins moved over from RT and that was with Jordan Mills moving to RT, Eric Wood at C, Vlad Ducasse at RG. Kinda crazy right? Two bums at RG, RT, an all pro at LG a should be all pro at C, and a rookie at LT in Dawkins that played like a top five tackle. Looking at this, the key might be to find an "all pro" for the left guard position which should help both the center and left tackle. Not an easy task though. While Spain graded as average it might have been a bad move to not resign crazy town Incognito who went on to have a very good season with the Raiders. The Raiders graded at 15th. "While Incognito allowed only nine pressures in 414 snaps. Out of those 12 combined pressures, only one was a sack and one was a quarterback hit — with the other 10 being hurries. " https://www.pff.com/news/pro-ranking-all-32-offensive-lines-from-the-2017-nfl-season Dawkins never started at RT in 2017. He did in pre-season and failed to beat out Jordan Mills for the job. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Allen Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) Long term, OL improvement is going to have to come through the draft. After the team pays Allen and White and Edmunds and Milano and Dawkins and eventually Oliver, there won't be room for any significant FAs. In fact, they're going to have to get rid of some of the guys they already have and lean more on first-contract guys. Edited March 22, 2020 by Dave Allen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Junction Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Not worried at all. I’d like to see improvement, but I think with an offseason of examination Daboll can tweak run schemes to figure some stuff out. Not having Gore back there as a key to stack the box will help as will Ford improving. More than anything though Allen developing and improving blitz & coverage identification, audibles, and protection calls will help the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Per an analytic study done by Pro Football Outsiders over a lengthy period of time, the biggest correlation between good OLine play and bad OLine play was the length of time/number of games a line played together. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 I see Beane drafting a swing OT with the 3rd or 4th pick, bringing in a UDFA OT and maybe a low tier vet OT and go to camp. Having the extra PS spots will help teams develop "project players" on the O-line. It should be good for OL quality overall. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 If there’s a BPA tackle available in our draft that can push a starter, great. If not, no worries 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Don't see any LT problem, really. He's not terrific, but he's good. Other than that, concerned? Yeah, sure. Until the season starts, everybody should be concerned about their team. Injuries, regression, stuff happens. Not terribly concerned, though, and certainly not so early in the offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 not right now, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njbuff Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 If Ford makes the jump, then this line will be solid. No matter what, this line should be able to run block pretty darn effectively. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 I am ? worried. hopefully being together another year will be enough to take us from an ok OL to a good OL. Josh deserves a GOOD OL. I was hoping we’d make RT our priority but it looks like McB is happy with Ford at there. Can’t blame him as he just traded up to draft him, but color me skeptical that it’ll be good enough. By good enough, I mean good enough to win a Sb with 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 I'm always worried about the offensive line. It's the hardest position group in football to build a consistently good unit. The one thing we have going for us is continuity. Every starter and depth player and coach is back. I'm not sure how many teams can say that. Add a tackle in the draft and I'll be satisfied. Diggs plus a real RB2 from the draft will make the offensive line look better too. More talent means Allen doesn't have to hold the ball as long, and Gore won't hold us back anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 There are a couple other threads currently open on this topic on the front page. Would you prefer I merge this with one of them or lock it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBills1998 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 O line was up and down last year, RT is a must need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerlyofCtown Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 19 hours ago, Bobby Hooks said: Can’t upgrade every position. Biggest thing you can do for an oline is give them time to gel and grow together as a unit. Would we love to add an all-pro RT? Of course, but all teams have weaknesses and if ours is this oline with one more year of experience, I’d say we’re doing pretty darn well. We just drafted an upgrade last year. Give the kid some time to develope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmalibu Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 I think O-line is the hardest position for a rookie to play with exception of QB. Ford should improve a good bit. They should improve as a group in year 2. Tough year with 4 new starters and the center was out most of the preseason as I recall. It would be nice to know if they tried to improve the talent through FA tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Hooks Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said: We just drafted an upgrade last year. Give the kid some time to develope. Did you even read the post? I feel like the context may have been lost on you. Edited March 21, 2020 by Bobby Hooks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmur66 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) Feliciano rated as a backup? Yea. I don’t think those ratings are very good. Dude was a beast. Stepped in at center when needed and did well there also Edited March 21, 2020 by bmur66 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtimebillsfan Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 9 hours ago, SoTier said: I think if Ford can't beat out Nsekhe in TC, then it seems like he should be moved to guard to see if he works there. If they get a better RT than Ford, then it's not "the same result". A lot of evaluators thought Ford would be a better pro guard than tackle, so a kid with physical skills better suited to playing pro OT might very well be worth grabbing. That's simply untrue when discussing OTs taken in the first or second rounds. Prospects taken that high generally need to get stronger and to hone their skills but most are perfectly capable of playing respectably as rookies. Cordy Glenn was a competent LT as a rookie. So was Dion Dawkins. Dawkins struggled in his sophomore season but rebounded last season when the Bills had NFL caliber OLers beside him rather just bodies wearing OL numbers as in 2018. If the Bills acquired a "stud left tackle" in the draft -- highly unlikely in the bottom third of the second round since the best ones go in the first round -- I think Dawkins moving to LG might be better. It's hard for OLers to switch sides because everything is reversed, and not every OT can play well that way. Also, LTs tend to be quicker and lighter than RTs while RTs tend to be more powerful. Good point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dkollidas Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 I think most people are down on Ford and believe he should be moved to guard. I believe we’ll see a jump in his development in year 2. Question is if that jump will be big enough for people to start considering him a viable tackle. I remember a lot of people mad we traded Glenn because they wanted us to move Dawkins to guard and let Glenn be the LT. I believe there’s a big jump from NCAA to NFL for linemen in the past 5-10yrs or so, so that makes judging guys based on rookie performance very difficult. They need time to develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnCoke11 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/20/2020 at 6:30 PM, LabattBlue said: Was our OL so good last season that the same 5 are coming back again? Pass blocking often looked like a jail break. Who should we of spent 15 million a year on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddo Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 6 hours ago, ScottLaw said: I doubt it too... In my opinion it would be a wise move. What if Brown or Diggs gets hurt and are out for an extended period? Your back to having a lackluster WR group and the same offensive struggles. You mentioned Foster and Duke..... why? Tbh, I expect the thinking is that they can pick up additional WR help, just about anywhere in this draft. Beane has already talked about how deep it is at the WR position. I wouldn't rule out a WR at our 2nd round pick, but the way they are going, it's going to have to be very good value above other positions on their board. I think the same will apply to anyone we take with that 2nd rounder tbh - it's going to have to be clearly BPA - so just about any position (probably excluding QB) is in play. I think taking a WR with our 2nd, is probably the least likely scenario. Mainly because there are so many of them, and so many who will have draftable grades. Other positions will have a much greater drop off than WR, so they will be much more likely to pick those, as there isn't going to be that much difference between a 2nd round WR, and possibly even a 4th round one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideRightRevenge Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 This thread prompted me to look around the internet .. as if its on the internet it must be true and found this link from footballoutsiders. I was a fan of many of our moves last year (especially Morse and Mongo -- who I really appreciate his finishing of blocks) and do believe it takes time for all the new players to gel. That said, I didn't realize below as it relates to our running game, especially with Shady and his dancing behind the line gone in 2019. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/offensive-line/2019 We ranked 28th in the run stuffing category and 25th in the "Power Category" rating on running ratings. On pass protection, some of the 40 sacks also shown here .. I place on Josh not getting rid of the ball. Stuffed: Percentage of runs where the running back is tackled at or behind the line of scrimmage. Since being stuffed is bad, teams are ranked from stuffed least often (#1) to most often (#32). Power Success: Percentage of runs on third or fourth down, two yards or less to go, that achieved a first down or touchdown. Also includes runs on first-and-goal or second-and-goal from the two-yard line or closer. This is the only statistic on this page that includes quarterbacks. Look forward to looking better in these categories in 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hebert19 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/20/2020 at 7:57 PM, ScottLaw said: Ford.. honestly they are taking a risk with him at RT. Constantly beat around the edge and a lot of mental mistakes. Not a fan. No one says that's the plan. RT could be a 2nd 3rd or 4th round pick or Ty could start...hes also solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/20/2020 at 7:30 PM, LabattBlue said: Was our OL so good last season that the same 5 are coming back again? Pass blocking often looked like a jail break. I agree...but Allen will the blame unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 12 hours ago, ScottLaw said: I doubt it too... In my opinion it would be a wise move. What if Brown or Diggs gets hurt and are out for an extended period? Your back to having a lackluster WR group and the same offensive struggles. You mentioned Foster and Duke..... why? If one of them gets hurt, I'm not counting on a 2nd-round rookie WR who will probably get minimal off-season and pre-season work to save the real season. What you're arguing for is adding another veteran WR. As for Foster and Duke, I mentioned them because they still have potential. I'm not ready to throw away what I saw of Foster in the 2nd half of 2018 and Duke has the size we're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsfanAZ Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Does anything think that if Ford dropped some weight and became a little more nimble that he can be a good RT? I always thought he was a little big at the base to be a Tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/21/2020 at 12:16 PM, matter2003 said: Per an analytic study done by Pro Football Outsiders over a lengthy period of time, the biggest correlation between good OLine play and bad OLine play was the length of time/number of games a line played together. Is there a link to that study? I didn't find it on the Outsiders. As to the comment about Ford having a better body for guard than tackle, I know nothing about those body mechanics, etc. However, I think it's clear that McBeane's approach is guys who can play multiple positions. That is, athleticism is the key, not body type. In the last few years I'd begun to notice that all of Belichick's offensive linemen were built more or less the same. Solid, tough, athletic, quick (for their size). So Ford's future is more likely to be told but which position he shows he can play best at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 1 hour ago, ScottLaw said: So the respective teams didn't count on DK Metcalf, AJ Brown, or Deebo Samuel to help them substantially last season? I'll gladly throw away Foster right now. I doubt any of those teams went into the season counting on those guys. Sure they panned-out but that's neither here nor there. Again I wouldn't draft a guy in the 2nd out of fear one of my top-3 is going to get hurt, when there are needs elsewhere, and what you're really advocating for is a veteran WR. You would be silly to throw Foster away. Especially if you think the Bills desperately need to draft a WR in the 2nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 1 minute ago, ScottLaw said: I gave you several reasons why I’d draft a WR early in a earlier post. Wait, so those teams weren’t counting on those 2nd/3rd round picks last season? How? Your reason was in case one of the top-3 got injured. You could use that with almost any positional grouping on the team. In a draft as deep as this is supposed to be, no need to take one in the 2nd. I don't know. Were the respective teams counting on Hardman, Acega-Whiteside, Campbell or Isabella? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 31 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: I think just about all teams count on their 2nd round picks to contribute to the team..... and no that was my only reason. Go read the post again. I gave several reasons. And I gave you several reasons why not, notably the depth of the WR class, lost off- and maybe pre-season making it harder for them to acclimate and the Bills' unreliability in drafting WRs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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