Buffalo Barbarian Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 5 hours ago, LabattBlue said: Was our OL so good last season that the same 5 are coming back again? Pass blocking often looked like a jail break. still have the draft and preseason to get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Turk71 said: They weren't pretty good. Get the ball out quicker? Josh was tied for last in the league in pocket time at 2.3 secs. Time from snap til pocket collapse. The Bills run blocking was near the bottom in power runs(need a yard), stuff rate (stopped for no gain or a loss), and they were no better than average in other run blocking categories. That's not nearly good enough. Continuity can help improve to a degree but more talent is needed imo. I consider the offensive line to be a critical part of a consistently good offense and find it puzzling it was not one of the priorities in free agency. Especially so considering Bulaga and Glasgow signed for similar $ as they gave to Vernon Butler to be part of a rotation. Still a lot of time for things to change before the season starts. If they are feeling good about the same 5 improving considerably then so be it, I will hope for the best. With an arm like Allen's and the downfield threats they have I would like to see him have the time in the pocket to make the most of it. If it takes years to develop a rt now shouldn't he be learning behind a veteran tackle instead of being expected to start as a rookie? Don't learn on the bench. Just like Allen needs to play and get better so does Ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtimebillsfan Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 6 hours ago, thunderingsquid said: I would love for them to go OT in the 2nd but that's just me. I wouldn't mind if a stud left tackle was available. Move Dawkins to RT with an elite LT...this line would be awesome! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 6 hours ago, Rock'em Sock'em said: Curious, which of these guys are projected to be below average starters this year? 2019 PFF grades enclosed (yes, the folks at PFF may not be the most accurate graders). I personally think continuity is the way to go. IMO, Ford should develop. Dawkins (73) Spain (55) Morse (66) Feliciano (64) Ford (52) PFF Player Grading Scale: 100-90 Elite, 89-85 Pro Bowler, 84-70 Starter, 69-60 Backup, 59-0 Replaceable Joke. Morse is one of the 3 best centers in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rc2catch Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 5 hours ago, Chandler#81 said: It seems like you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth. You claim Josh leads the League 2 years straight holding the ball too long, but you also seem to be purposely omitting that Allen is often Houdini back there, evading rushers from everywhere while keeping an eye downfield. We didn’t run a lot of screens, true, but when we did they were great -think Washington and Baltimore playoff game. I’m in the camp that year 2 together and a healthy sophomore season from Ford are the reasons Beane isn’t chasing new vets. I’m all over the place at times. Just saying the line would look better especially on paper if Allen got the ball out faster like some other quarterbacks do. I don’t have any problems with the guys we have or going into the season with the current group. But if we’re using PFF ranks and stuff grading the line Allen doesn’t do them any favors 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain Man Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 8 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Ford.. honestly they are taking a risk with him at RT. Constantly beat around the edge and a lot of mental mistakes. Not a fan. It's almost like he was a rookie playing one of the hardest positions in the sport for rookies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 8 hours ago, billsfan_34 said: Yeah- they were pretty good. They will look better when JA gets the ball out quicker. This to me is the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 7 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Do it again and you will get the same result. That's what you get at that level. Ford may or may not grow into a good pro, but you're probably not getting a rookie starter who is much better. Possible, but it's a bad bet. You're right. The line was mediocre. They're counting on Ford improving and they are counting on the line growing together as a unit. And they are counting on Josh to improve in blitz recognition. There were a lot of sacks that were not on the line at all because they sent an extra guy and either we hadn't recognised it and so had not kept an extra blocker in, or Singletary got blown up, or Josh hadn't got to his hot quickly enough. Now Morse has a role to play there as well but fundamentally that comes down to the Quarterback being better at understanding what he is seeing and adjusting either in protection or, preferably, in getting to hot reads. The best way to stop the blitz is to burn teams when they blitz you IMO. It isn't unusual for a young QB to take time to develop that. Took Deshaun Watson a little time and we saw Sam Darnold struggle with the same thing last year too. But that is as important, if not more important, than anything the 5 up front can do. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 7 hours ago, Rc2catch said: That’s my thinking on it as well. They had some lapses but Allen isn’t doing them any favors rarely taking a dump off pass or hot read or anything on blitzing plays. Add in the fact we can’t execute screens and it causes some ugly pressures. He was hovering over what 3.5 seconds holding the ball last season? I don’t have the advanced metrics of it but I think he lead the league both seasons in time holding the ball before release. You seem to make a habit of being wrong, but this wasn't even hard to find: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw Kirk Cousins was the worst in this statistic and only QB over 3 seconds. Andy Dalton being the fastest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 18 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw Kirk Cousins was the worst in this statistic and only QB over 3 seconds. Andy Dalton being the fastest. All QBs are darn close in time to throw, thanks for the link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihilarian Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 9 hours ago, LabattBlue said: Was our OL so good last season that the same 5 are coming back again? Pass blocking often looked like a jail break. That was really only against some of the better defenses, teams. Eagles owned the Bills on both sides of the line and the Ravens D was even worse against the Bills O line. The Ravens accomplished that by 55%-65% blitzing and when they saw that Allen couldn't hit the deep ball to defeat that blitz, it intensified. The Patriots were another team that the Bills had trouble with in stopping their run and getting to Brady. The Browns game could have been a win had the Bills simply run the ball more often to counter the #2 pass rusher at that time in Miles Garrett who didn't get a ton of sacks but was able to pressure Allen with 4 pressures, 2 harries, 2 sacks. It could be that the Bills FO simply thinks that the line needed more continuity of playing together and while that could be true. There were times in many games in which the Bills failed to run effectively when most needed. While getting a major overhaul of talent to that line from 2018 to 2019 didn't actually improve their overall grade that much as that 2018 line graded at 26th. Which is being kind to a unit that looked like crap most of the season. Now take into account that the 2019 season saw a rather weak schedule. LT Dion Dawkins had the overall best grade which graded him as the 24th best LT. Morse, Feliciano graded average while Spain and Ford both graded below average. Ty Nsekhe only graded below Dawkins. Now, you would think that with all the upgrades to that line it would have graded better than 21st. Clearly the weak link was at RT with the rookie. I guess we will need to wait for the draft to see if the Bills make moves to upgrade the line again this year. I'm thinking RT, OG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ManRaid Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 10 hours ago, LabattBlue said: Was our OL so good last season that the same 5 are coming back again? Pass blocking often looked like a jail break. I can't stress enough how important continuity is to an O-line. The whole line got blown up last year and I expect them to do better this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rc2catch Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 3 hours ago, jeremy2020 said: You seem to make a habit of being wrong, but this wasn't even hard to find: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw Kirk Cousins was the worst in this statistic and only QB over 3 seconds. Andy Dalton being the fastest. A habit of it huh ?? appreciate the link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 12 hours ago, LabattBlue said: Was our OL so good last season that the same 5 are coming back again? Pass blocking often looked like a jail break. I thought they were below average thought the season and our LT and RT looked absolutely horrid vs Houston in the playoff game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 3 hours ago, GunnerBill said: And they are counting on Josh to improve in blitz recognition. There were a lot of sacks that were not on the line at all because they sent an extra guy and either we hadn't recognised it and so had not kept an extra blocker in, or Singletary got blown up, or Josh hadn't got to his hot quickly enough. Now Morse has a role to play there as well but fundamentally that comes down to the Quarterback being better at understanding what he is seeing and adjusting either in protection or, preferably, in getting to hot reads. The best way to stop the blitz is to burn teams when they blitz you IMO. It isn't unusual for a young QB to take time to develop that. Took Deshaun Watson a little time and we saw Sam Darnold struggle with the same thing last year too. But that is as important, if not more important, than anything the 5 up front can do. This is absolutely correct. It is problem for young qbs to do it, all around the league, and Allen has to get better at it. He has to master it to be great. And its a bit on Daboll, too, because defenses have gotten better at disguise and taking the hot read away. But mostly it's Allen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 12 hours ago, LabattBlue said: Was our OL so good last season that the same 5 are coming back again? Pass blocking often looked like a jail break. "... often looked like a jail break" is a huge exaggeration. Yeah, there was definitely room for improvement. But they were above average last year, IMO, though only slightly so. They looked to me like a group that improved as the year went along and they got some continuity together, a group that needed a spot improvement or two rather than wholesale improvements. I expect another move or two before the season start but maybe none of those producing a starter. And they weren't five guys last year, more like four and a platoon at RT. Still plenty of time for some changes at LT in terms of one or both getting better and taking over or them bringing somebody else in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan_34 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 8 hours ago, 32ABBA said: Ha, JA is already making them look good with his running ability. I think JA is doing more for them, than they are for him. ?♂️ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artem Lipatov Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Our OL is way to improve. It's avarage,maybe above avarage, but we need dominant Oline to succeed in playoffs. I expected 1-2 upgrade signings this free agency. Are Beane and McD satisfied with this OL? Do they hope to draft OL starter in late 2nd -3rd round pick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddo Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 6 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said: I wouldn't mind if a stud left tackle was available. Move Dawkins to RT with an elite LT...this line would be awesome! Dawkins is a decent LT, trending upwards. While it was early in his career, he never looked comfortable as a RT. When Glenn got injured, Dawkins immediately looked a better player at LT. Some guys can play either side effectively, but others can't. On what evidence exists, I'd say that Dawkins would never be as good a RT, as he could be a LT. It wouldn't have surprised me, at all, if Glenn hadn't been traded, that he would have ended up at RT, with Dawkins at LT. I wouldn't rule out an OT with our 2nd, but it would be strictly in line with what our board is telling us, and not from thinking it was a need particularly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 12 hours ago, vincec said: They need to bring in a veteran T to compete with Nsekhe and Ford. What is the status of LaAdrian Waddle? I keep thinking, part of me would love to see a 1 year deal for Peters at RT. Make his career a Bills sandwich and maybe give him one last good run in the place where it all started. I know it ended very poorly but I’d say things in Buffalo are considerably different now. The guy is a sure fire, future hall of famer and it would be nice if he came back and ended it on good terms. Plus at RT I think he could still be effective and hopefully give Ford someone to learn from. Just purely by watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 12 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Ford.. honestly they are taking a risk with him at RT. Constantly beat around the edge and a lot of mental mistakes. Not a fan. I think if Ford can't beat out Nsekhe in TC, then it seems like he should be moved to guard to see if he works there. 11 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Do it again and you will get the same result. That's what you get at that level. Ford may or may not grow into a good pro, but you're probably not getting a rookie starter who is much better. Possible, but it's a bad bet. You're right. The line was mediocre. They're counting on Ford improving and they are counting on the line growing together as a unit. If they get a better RT than Ford, then it's not "the same result". A lot of evaluators thought Ford would be a better pro guard than tackle, so a kid with physical skills better suited to playing pro OT might very well be worth grabbing. 11 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said: I like Ford at RT. OT takes years to develop now. Nsekhe was not much better and Ford improved as the year went on. I'm fine with this starting five. After the moves made in FA I probably would take Edge, OT, RB, DE, P in that order in the draft. That's simply untrue when discussing OTs taken in the first or second rounds. Prospects taken that high generally need to get stronger and to hone their skills but most are perfectly capable of playing respectably as rookies. Cordy Glenn was a competent LT as a rookie. So was Dion Dawkins. Dawkins struggled in his sophomore season but rebounded last season when the Bills had NFL caliber OLers beside him rather just bodies wearing OL numbers as in 2018. 6 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said: I wouldn't mind if a stud left tackle was available. Move Dawkins to RT with an elite LT...this line would be awesome! If the Bills acquired a "stud left tackle" in the draft -- highly unlikely in the bottom third of the second round since the best ones go in the first round -- I think Dawkins moving to LG might be better. It's hard for OLers to switch sides because everything is reversed, and not every OT can play well that way. Also, LTs tend to be quicker and lighter than RTs while RTs tend to be more powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codyny13 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 It’s march. The draft hasn’t even happened yet...cuts after the draft haven’t happened yet. ??♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcampbell104 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 13 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Ford.. honestly they are taking a risk with him at RT. Constantly beat around the edge and a lot of mental mistakes. Not a fan. hello he's a rookie with limited experience at the position in college(one year at rt) who improved as the year went on, and now has the whole off season to work on it. he was a project at the position when he was drafted and should only get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggTX Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 We need at least 2 major upgrades on the OL. RT is a liability and so is RG. Morse is above average, but he's alone in that regard. I sincerely hope this is not the OL group we'll be using this season. If we're going to get an elite RT, we'll have to trade for him or get really lucky in the draft. Thuney and Scherff are still available at G, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcampbell104 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Just now, ScottLaw said: Nscheke was still the better player at RT as late into the season as the Houston game.... he should start if they stick with both of them at the position.... just doubtful he holds up over the course of a season as we saw last year. you do know that young players can improve don't you? ford was fairly inexperienced at his position like josh was, there will be improvement. you need to be less negative it will help you in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 14 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Ford.. honestly they are taking a risk with him at RT. Constantly beat around the edge and a lot of mental mistakes. Not a fan. Have you ever improved at anything over time and repetition? It appears Ford is going to be allowed to spend an entire offseason focusing on tackle. Last year at this time Ford was getting ready to look good at the combine and pro day. Ford knows the offense and will be able to focus on footwork and other area’s like ‘hand punch’ . I am not saying he is going to suddenly be the best RT but I do think he will improve a good bit. The entire line coming back and playing in the same system is huge. I have never been a big Daboll guy, but I am a fan of continuity on offense. The Oline should look much improved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesla03 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 There were times last year where our oline completely collapsed towards the end of games. Ravens, Patriots, and wild card vs Texans games all had mediocre oline play, and were some of our biggest games of the season. Against the Eagles as well, their dline completely owned the LOS. Not to mention the countless pre snap penalties and boneheaded mistakes the oline guys make. Beane hasn't addressed the position yet so I'm wondering what our plan is next year. It is so vital for Allen to have a top notch oline, can't stress it enough. He took some very nasty hits last season that I had no idea how he walked away clean from. I'm still not convinced with either of our tackles. I truly think we need a franchise LT here long term. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 hour ago, SoTier said: I think if Ford can't beat out Nsekhe in TC, then it seems like he should be moved to guard to see if he works there. If they get a better RT than Ford, then it's not "the same result". A lot of evaluators thought Ford would be a better pro guard than tackle, so a kid with physical skills better suited to playing pro OT might very well be worth grabbing. That's simply untrue when discussing OTs taken in the first or second rounds. Prospects taken that high generally need to get stronger and to hone their skills but most are perfectly capable of playing respectably as rookies. Cordy Glenn was a competent LT as a rookie. So was Dion Dawkins. Dawkins struggled in his sophomore season but rebounded last season when the Bills had NFL caliber OLers beside him rather just bodies wearing OL numbers as in 2018. If the Bills acquired a "stud left tackle" in the draft -- highly unlikely in the bottom third of the second round since the best ones go in the first round -- I think Dawkins moving to LG might be better. It's hard for OLers to switch sides because everything is reversed, and not every OT can play well that way. Also, LTs tend to be quicker and lighter than RTs while RTs tend to be more powerful. I think you overestimate what you can get in the draft. It's only the guys at the top of the draft that you can count on to start. You get down to to the bottom of the first and into the second, what you get is guys like Ford - guys with the physical tools but without the experience. There are articles every year about the fact that offensive linemen are the least NFL ready players coming out of the draft. Many of them, and Ford is an example, played in college systems that didn't ask them to do many of things they have to do in the pros. That's why you see so many guys who begin to have success in their third or even fourth season after college. They have a lot to learn, and it isn't easy. So sure, you might find a starting offensive lineman late in the first round or in the second, but it's just as likely that you'll miss, in the sense that the guy won't help you much as a rookie. In the 2020 training camp, a guy like Ford has a huge advantage over that rookie. He has learned a year's worth of stuff that the rookie doesn't know. The smart bet is that Ford will be better in 2020 than any rookie who might fall to the Bills. Maybe not better over the long run, but better in 2020. That mentality is at the core of how McDermott operates. He demands that his players improve from year to year, and he understands that if he does his job, his players WILL improve. That approach means he has to have patience with his young players and not have an itchy trigger finger. So it isn't surprising at all that they're betting on Ford in 2020. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardhatharry Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Nope 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: I think you overestimate what you can get in the draft. It's only the guys at the top of the draft that you can count on to start. You get down to to the bottom of the first and into the second, what you get is guys like Ford - guys with the physical tools but without the experience. I'd feel better if I was confident about RT, but as far as the draft goes, second round I'd still look WR or even RB. Claypool or Pittman would add size to the WR corp and we need to have another strong rb to pair with Singletary. Of course, we also need to add youth at Edge, but if you look strictly at offense, that's where I would be inclined to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DFT Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Not at all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggTX Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 This is now our biggest problem area followed by CB and DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 Always. Injuries are to expected. We need as many good players as we can get. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 1 minute ago, ScottLaw said: And TE, and RB and depth at WR. Shoot, they may as well overturn the whole roster. Doomed. 3 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: 100% what I want.... I wouldn't be too upset if they went edge in the 2nd, but the draft should prioritize the offense, IMO. Based on what's been reported, I'd be somewhat shocked if they went WR in round 2.... even though I'd love it. They'd go from the WR position being their biggest weakness in 2019 to being a strength of the team in 2020 and perhaps the best unit in the league.... this group is more defensive oriented so I don't expect it. Why do you keep insisting on adding another WR, much less in the 2nd? At present they have 2-1,000 yard WR's and an excellent slot WR who is coming off a career with almost 800 yards. Not to mention Duke and Foster. Where would you play this 2nd rounder? Edited March 21, 2020 by Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) 2- parts that bother me 1- is the short yardage we get stuffed virtually running anything besides josh getting it on the sneak/run usually requires being outstretched breaking tackles etc. just to pickup the 1/2 yard. 2- both Tackles Cody Ford was over matched often last year, I do think he's going to be very good year two he needs to come along. Dawkins at times he plays very well but he's not that franchise tackle we all hope for. While Ford will be only 23 until the end of next season Dawkins will be 26 next month. I hope he can develop into that money player great teams need. Other than that I like the o-line, sure if I had a wish list need a little nasty to it, Feliciano has it Spain every now and then but that's it Morse is so agile and can get out in front like nobody .vs the concussion problems. When he plays he plays well and our screen game goes- when he out our screen game isn't even used. Edited March 21, 2020 by CardinalScotts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 I don’t remember Allen taking big shots, of any in the pocket. The big shots I remember him taking was when he took off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 *looks at thread starter* Nope. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ManRaid Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 We needed more of these original threads. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 22 minutes ago, Tesla03 said: There were times last year where our oline completely collapsed towards the end of games. Ravens, Patriots, and wild card vs Texans games all had mediocre oline play, and were some of our biggest games of the season. Against the Eagles as well, their dline completely owned the LOS. Not to mention the countless pre snap penalties and boneheaded mistakes the oline guys make. Beane hasn't addressed the position yet so I'm wondering what our plan is next year. It is so vital for Allen to have a top notch oline, can't stress it enough. He took some very nasty hits last season that I had no idea how he walked away clean from. I'm still not convinced with either of our tackles. I truly think we need a franchise LT here long term. I certainly am. The right side is not very good and I would like us to acquire / draft a RT. There are other needs (no team is going to be fully stacked on all sides of the ball) but fortifying the OL is unfinished business. Its easy to pooh-pooh the fact that there have been only two additions to the offense but there is need there and I hope we take care of at least the protection on draft day(s) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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