Bills sign Josh Norman

[4BillsintheBurgh]

26 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think people are missing the point about Norman.   

 

Here's what's important:  McDermott had him for four years in Carolina, and McDermott knows, for an absolute certainty, that Norman processes McDermott's defense at a high level.   That is, what's going on in Norman's brain is what McDermott wants in a corner back.   So the only questions are whether at this point in his career he still has the heart and sufficient physical skills to execute what he's thinking.   (For most other free agent CBs, McBeane don't know if the guy can process, mentally, what McD wants.)

 

As for the heart and the physical ability.  They have watched film of Norman over the past couple of years, and they can tell from the film whether his problems were that he has lost a step.   They've probably talked to him a few times in the past couple of months, and they probably think from those talks that he has the heart.   So from all aspects that they can evaluate off the field, they must be pretty highly confident that he can contribute at the level McD needs.  

 

If they discover at camp that he doesn't have it, they cut him.   But my guess is that they're viewing this as a relatively low-risk signing that makes their defensive backfield better than it was in 2019.  

 

I agree with BillsfanAZ 

I'm also assuming he's going to be pretty darn motivated in this "contract year". He will hopefully bring whatever he's got left to try and get one more decent contract after 2020.

[BillsMafia13]

1 hour ago, CountDorkula said:

 

That pro-bowl season will be 5 seasons ago now.

 

I've questioned whether he is worth it, regardless of contract based on the last 3-4 years of data saying he has been really really bad on the field, where it matters most.

 

The only response i get is "How dare you question McD you idiot" and "its not your money"

 

I have not seen a logical argument that shows otherwise other than he played zone well 5 years ago.

Nobody is saying he’s the next Revis. But he did put up all pro play with mcderms and thrived in his system. Then went to a dumpster fire of a team with no support. Now he’s on an upcoming team with a great secondary behind him in a system that fits better with less pressure. You’re actually getting flooded with better arguments than yours dude 

[NewEra]

57 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

He wasn't in a good scheme fit in Washington but also looked slow and sluggish, The scheme fit you can change but the slow and sluggish part hmmm. It's a low level signing much like Kevin Johnson was last year that could prove to be a solid pickup who both McDermott and Beane are comfortable with so I don't see the downside to this unless he quits at halftime. 

Playing on the 2nd worst team in football can also make someone look slow and sluggish.  He got his big payday (and a decent payday from us) and now it’s time for him to enjoy playing the game again, for a coach that he loves and a scheme that suits him best.  I don’t expect the 2015 josh Norman.  I also don’t expect 2019 josh Norman.  1 year deal, Beane specialty. Worst case, we cut him and eat some of that money, but most likely he’ll either be a starter or a very solid 4th corner

[par73]

Has been on the decline the last few years, and benched last year. Hope they can get something out of him, but I'm very skeptical.

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe it wasn't Norman. 

Maybe it was Manusky.

 

My only thing about this is bringing in a CB for $6M with Poyer under contract for $2.7M salary this year (and publically feeling underpaid) has to seem a bit like a smack in the face to JP.

Well Poyer made the decision to accept his deal, for the duration of the deal, so if he is going to get all pouty about it thats on him, he knows how this works, and if he actually expected his team to never bring someone who makes more than  2.7 million to play CB then he is not so active in the brain box. He will have his chance at more money when he negotiates his next contact, it’s that simple. His playing very well on his current deal is why he will have that future opportunity. And is it 6 million guaranteed? Or is that if he hits certain levels of performance? 
 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Don Otreply

[NewEra]

33 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

$6-8 million for a guy that’s been legitimately terrible for a few years now is definitely not cheap.

 

We all know the other 3 points, one of which I literally made in the post you’re quoting.

It’s cheap because it’s one year.  We likely won’t spend to the cap.  So yes, it is definitely cheap 

[Chandler#81]

40 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

$6-8 million for a guy that’s been legitimately terrible for a few years now is definitely not cheap.

 

We all know the other 3 points, one of which I literally made in the post you’re quoting.

$200M salary cap in 2020 vs $6M for a sometime starter with a solid history and intimately familiar with the Process?

C’mon man. Get with the program.

[wppete]

7 hours ago, wvbillsfan said:

Would have rather had Kevin Johnson back. 

Hope they bring him back also. Why not? On a similar contract. 

[HappyDays]

We're judging the contract before we actually know what it is. The guaranteed money is what matters. But $6 million is very low, these days that's an above average depth signing. And I imagine that's what Norman will be used as.

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, wppete said:

Hope they bring him back also. Why not? On a similar contract. 

I doubt he’s looking for a 1 year deal.  Most likely looking for the most gtd possible.  He played very well last year coming off 4 years of injuries.  If I’m him, I try and cash in the most gtd money possible 

[Buffalo716]

What people don't realize about cornerbacks is that it's just not man vs zone

 

Every single defense plays man and zone coverages. What the difference is the amount of man vs zone and the fact Norman was following receivers

 

Norman is actually above average in man actually. Where he struggled is Washington asked him to play 70% man and follow guys... 

 

He just doesn't have the speed for following guys over the Field... Put him in a 65-35 zone scheme like ours where he won't have too follow people and can use instincts and he should be a good option

 

Not all pro Norman but solid and he is physical

[DCOrange]

21 minutes ago, NewEra said:

It’s cheap because it’s one year.  We likely won’t spend to the cap.  So yes, it is definitely cheap 

 

If he's just referring to the fact that it's a one year deal, then that's fair. But I literally mentioned that in my post by saying "But it's a one year deal and we have plenty of cap space so who really cares?"

 

$6-8 million for a guy that has been terrible the last few years is not cheap though; that's top 20-30 CB money. He could rebound and be end up playing like a top 20-30 CB, but we're paying him on the upside. If he simply maintains his level of play from the past few years, he's worth more like the vet minimum.

 

Again though, I like that we're bringing him in and I don't care about his contract since it's just a one-year deal.

Edited March 9, 2020 by DCOrange

[section122]

5 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

 

If he's just referring to the fact that it's a one year deal, then that's fair. But I literally mentioned that in my post by saying "But it's a one year deal and we have plenty of cap space so who really cares?"

 

$6-8 million for a guy that has been terrible the last few years is not cheap though; that's top 20-30 CB money. He could rebound and be end up playing like a top 20-30 CB, but we're paying him on the upside. If he simply maintains his level of play from the past few years, he's worth more like the vet minimum.

 

I was interested so I looked it up on spotrac.  He is tied for 27th highest cb contract.  I expect after fa that he will be just outside top 30.  For a 1 year deal I can't be too mad about this.  McD likes to have a vet in every room and Norman had tremendous success with him.  

[KOKBILLS]

Listened to the Clinton Portis interview on One Bills Live just now...I'm paraphrasing here...But it sounds like it was a well known fact around the Redskins that Norman was not a fit for what they were doing Defensively and no one was happy about it...The cut move was likely more about that cap savings then Rivera not wanting him, though Portis seemed to indicate Norman was done with Washington and wanted a change...

 

I still think it's 50/50 he makes the final roster...But he could be a real nice pick up for a year if everything goes well...We'll see...?

[Lurker]

10 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

I still think it's 50/50 he makes the final roster...But he could be a real nice pick up for a year if everything goes well...We'll see...?

 

 

That's where I'm at as well. 

 

Once we learn how much the guaranteed money is, we'll have a better handle on which "fifty" seems more likely....

[billykay]

32 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

 

If he's just referring to the fact that it's a one year deal, then that's fair. But I literally mentioned that in my post by saying "But it's a one year deal and we have plenty of cap space so who really cares?"

 

$6-8 million for a guy that has been terrible the last few years is not cheap though; that's top 20-30 CB money. He could rebound and be end up playing like a top 20-30 CB, but we're paying him on the upside. If he simply maintains his level of play from the past few years, he's worth more like the vet minimum.

 

Again though, I like that we're bringing him in and I don't care about his contract since it's just a one-year deal.

I would guess that Norman may have had other offers in the 5M range. If we wanted him , then we had to beat those offers.

[DCOrange]

3 minutes ago, billykay said:

I would guess that Norman may have had other offers in the 5M range. If we wanted him , then we had to beat those offers.

Definitely sounds like other teams were interested. Obviously no idea what those teams were offering but I assume he had at least one other offer for similar money.

[njbuff]

I guess the Bills should bring in OBJ just for the entertainment value.

 

?

[KOKBILLS]

7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

 

That's where I'm at as well. 

 

Once we learn how much the guaranteed money is, we'll have a better handle on which "fifty" seems more likely....

 

Murph and Chris Brown are saying no guaranteed money...All base salary with incentives...Not saying that's right...But it's what they said...?

[Mango]

1 hour ago, BillsMafia13 said:

Nobody is saying he’s the next Revis. But he did put up all pro play with mcderms and thrived in his system. Then went to a dumpster fire of a team with no support. Now he’s on an upcoming team with a great secondary behind him in a system that fits better with less pressure. You’re actually getting flooded with better arguments than yours dude 

 To play devils advocate, the HC, Ron Rivera, where he thrived is the the one who cut him. It’s not like he couldn’t have been kept as a system guy in Washington. 

[BmarvB]

7 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Does this mean KJ is gone?

 

I sure hope not. I'd rather have him instead

[DCOrange]

5 minutes ago, Mango said:

 To play devils advocate, the HC, Ron Rivera, where he thrived is the the one who cut him. It’s not like he couldn’t have been kept as a system guy in Washington. 

Difference is Norman was getting paid more than twice as much in Washington and we're at a different stage of building than Washington.

Edited March 9, 2020 by DCOrange

[whatdrought]

Cornerbacks are one of the most scheme dependent positions in the NFL. Guys can thrive in one spot and then be trash else where. I remember when Nmandi Asamough was a top 5 corner in Oakland, went to Philly and was horrible. 

[CommonCents]

6 hours ago, Binghamton Beast said:

 

Yeah, because Norman probably will get fat and out of shape, right?

Who said that? 

[Beast]

The more I think about it the more I like this signing.

 

We still have Levi Wallace who I expect to be better next season. Wallace/ Norman possibly Johnson fight it out for playing time. This signing makes our CB group one of the strongest in the league.

[YoloinOhio]

24 minutes ago, Mango said:

 To play devils advocate, the HC, Ron Rivera, where he thrived is the the one who cut him. It’s not like he couldn’t have been kept as a system guy in Washington. 

Rivera was the HC when he thrived but it was McDermott’s defense. Rivera no longer has McDermott’s’s defense. He has Jack Del Rio’s.

Edited March 9, 2020 by YoloinOhio

[Rochesterfan]

23 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

Murph and Chris Brown are saying no guaranteed money...All base salary with incentives...Not saying that's right...But it's what they said...?

 

This would make sense because as a veteran player - if he is on the week 1 roster - it becomes guaranteed.  
 

They should not have to give extra guarantees because of his status as a veteran.

 

This adds to the value as if he is bad - he is gone and no impact at all.  If he is good - you have Kevin Johnson all over again.  A guy you can play as needed, while still allowing Levi his growth and time.

 

No real down side as it has little cap impact and brings in another depth guy to ensure we have a set roster.

 

[Logic]

6 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

This adds to the value, as if he is bad - he is gone and no impact at all.  If he is good - you have Kevin Johnson all over again.  A guy you can play as needed, while still allowing Levi his growth and time.

 

No real down side as it has little cap impact and brings in another depth guy to ensure we have a set roster.

 

This guy gets it.

[Logic]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I don't care what McBeane say.  Star is not good.

Opinions of professional NFL general manager and a head coach who is one of the top five defensive minds in the NFL, not to mention a long time pro like Lorenzo Alexander? Bupkus.

Opinion of Two Bills Drive message board member ScottLaw? Gold. Unimpeachable.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Logic

[Just Joshin']

43 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

Murph and Chris Brown are saying no guaranteed money...All base salary with incentives...Not saying that's right...But it's what they said...?

That is good on Beane's part.  It will be guaranteed if he is on the team week 1 unless that is changed in the new CBA.

[teef]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

I don't care what McBeane say.  Star is not good.

but how do you feel about milano?

[atlbillsfan1975]

25 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

This would make sense because as a veteran player - if he is on the week 1 roster - it becomes guaranteed.  
 

They should not have to give extra guarantees because of his status as a veteran.

 

This adds to the value as if he is bad - he is gone and no impact at all.  If he is good - you have Kevin Johnson all over again.  A guy you can play as needed, while still allowing Levi his growth and time.

 

No real down side as it has little cap impact and brings in another depth guy to ensure we have a set roster.

 

Good post.

if there is no real guaranteed money, other than I am assuming some type of signing bonus, this is a big win. Norman shows up out of shape or uninterested he is gone before week 1.

Great signing and allows the Beane to take CB2 out of round 1 or 2 consideration. Still would like to see a CB picked somewhere in the mid rounds they see as development player that needs a year. Someone from a smaller school or with only a years worth of good film.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

3 hours ago, Seoulofstone said:

 

  Genuinely curious. What does this statement mean? What do you have against Norman?

 

  A lot of people don't like him because he talks smack and gets in people's face. Is this your issue with him? Do you see him as a bad influence? Because I can't think what else you could mean. 

A lot of NFL players talk smack and get in people's faces but don't get benched and made inactive because of that. 

[whatdrought]

32 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Rivera was the HC when he thrived but it was McDermott’s defense. Rivera no longer has McDermott’s’s defense. He has Jack Del Rio’s.

 

Does Del Rio use long, physical press-man corners? I seem to remember him being the DC in Denver when they got Talib who (I think) is a man-cover specialist?

[ngbills]

28 minutes ago, Logic said:

Opinions of professional NFL general manager and a head coach who is one of the top five defensive minds in the NFL, not to mention a long time pro like Lorenzo Alexander? Bupkus.

Opinion of Two Bills Drive message board member ScottLaw? Gold. Unimpeachable.

Seriously - who do these people think they are? Questioning a move by an NFL GM and head coach. I remember when people tried to question starting Nathan Peterman. Fools thinking they know so much. Who was laughing after Peterman went on to dominate...wait, oh wrong number, so sorry. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by ngbills

[Shaw66]

I thought I'd look at a few stats.

 

First, in Norman's last season in Carolina, the Panthers were #1 in the league in defensive passer rating.   The first season he was gone, they were 21st.

 

In his 4 seasons in Carolina he had 36 passes defended.   In his four seasons in Washington, he had 43 Passes defended (he played a half season more in Washington).   

 

He had 7 interceptions in Washington and 7 interceptions in Carolina.  

 

How much speed he's lost and how much agility he's lost is measurable, and no doubt the Bills have measured it.  So although we don't have it, McBeane have it.  

 

And the most important metrics, the soft metrics that McBeane value - teamwork, leadership, competitiveness, work ethic, McBeane already know.

 

I look at all that and think that the negative reaction about Norman really amount to two things:  (1) he got a big contract and then couldn't play up to the level of the contract.  That may cause some people to think that he is a bad player.  (2) he shot his mouth off a lot and couldn't live up to it.   

 

This is exactly the kind of free agent signing we keep getting from Beane.   He's plugging holes, not looking for star.   He wants guys who can play and do their job.   Every hole he plugs leaves him free to go BPA in the draft, which is his objective.   Assuming they re-sign Johnson, there's a good chance they now have CB covered for 2020.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Logic]

16 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Seriously - who do these people think they are? Questioning a move by an NFL GM and head coach. I remember when people tried to question starting Nathan Peterman. Fools thinking they know so much. Who was laughing after Peterman went on to dominate...wait, oh wrong number, so sorry. 

Have you taken a look at ScottLaw's post history?

I'm guessing not.

[YoloinOhio]

22 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Does Del Rio use long, physical press-man corners? I seem to remember him being the DC in Denver when they got Talib who (I think) is a man-cover specialist?

He plays man coverage - and will again if he has the players. Right now the only fit is Quinton Dunbar. his scheme is a poor fit for Norman 

[thunderingsquid]

9 hours ago, JMF2006 said:

 

I think It would be hard to run the team from there  

Ralph did it from Detroit.  

[JMF2006]

4 minutes ago, thunderingsquid said:

Ralph did it from Detroit.  

 

He was the owner though

 

He could have done his part from Australia