Beane: Gore will push McCoy to be the starter

[Victory Formation]

1 minute ago, Ethan in Portland said:

They are still millions under the cap this year and next. What difference does salary make? 

 

#1. Easy when it's not your money.

#2. Singletary is Shady except 21 years old and not 31.

#3. TJ Yeldon is also quite capable at a fraction of the costs.

#4. You don't pay a backup top 10 money.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

Even though I feel Gore would've faired better behind that line because of his within the tackle running style, he still would've had a tough go of it. I think both him and Shady will thrive with the new and improved O line. 

 

OK, as someone who spent way too much time watching the run game and trying to figure out what blocking the Bills were attempting to achieve:

 

1) on the one hand, there was seldom a lane McCoy could run through

2) on the other hand, after the first couple games when it became clear there weren't lanes where he could follow a blocker and there weren't likely to be lanes where he could follow a blocker, Shady did a sh** ton of dancing about where, had he hit the hole harder, he could arguably have gotten more yards

[CommonCents]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Gore pushing McCoy.

 

First thing I thought of was a wheel chair.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

7 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

They are still millions under the cap this year and next. What difference does salary make? 

 

 

Apparently it matters. Ask most around here why Dareus was traded and salary was a big part of it. 

[LSHMEAB]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK, as someone who spent way too much time watching the run game and trying to figure out what blocking the Bills were attempting to achieve:

 

1) on the one hand, there was seldom a lane McCoy could run through

2) on the other hand, after the first couple games when it became clear there weren't lanes where he could follow a blocker and there weren't likely to be lanes where he could follow a blocker, Shady did a sh** ton of dancing about where, had he hit the hole harder, he could arguably have gotten more yards

He didn't maximize yardage, but it's hard to teach a back who's been around as long as Shady new tricks. Not only is it not his game, he's really ineffective as a downhill runner. He has virtually no strength at the point of attack. What concerned me the most wasn't that Shady didn't produce; the line was garbage and there were no lanes. I was more troubled by the fact that he didn't seem to have the same burst or quickness. I've seen his schtick in the past and there were obviously negative plays even when things were going well. He never looked so sluggish. It's POSSIBLE that everything slowed down as he got used to the fact that there was nowhere to go. That's the hope. I don't know how much Gore has left in the tank either TBH. I actually think RB was a need NOW. I just hope I'm wrong about Singletary because we may need him to produce.

 

McCoy is one of my all time favorite RB's to watch, so I'd love to see the burst re-emerge. That would be ideal.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Different backs do different things better.

We will have Singletary and one of them stud RBs that are suppose to be in next years draft.

 

Is there one who just runs straight ahead and crosses the line of scrimmage.  We need one who does that real good.

[BuffaloBill]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Whoa.  What?  Does McCoy need to be pushed to be the STARTER?  Shady not gonna like these comments...

 

 

While poor line play had significant impact, McCoy can’t argue that his last season left him as a lock to go uncontested for the starting role this year.

[Alphadawg7]

51 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Actually there isn't a case for that at all. Ivory smashed into the back of guards repeatedly for little to no gain. While that looks like he is running hard and giving great effort, it still doesn't produce any results. Shady was never that type of back in his career and it is folly to expect him to be any different.  

Beane and McDermott (still keeping my promise) have shown through their actions just the opposite - cutting Ivory and completely rebuilding the line. Gore is a great back to have around for Allen. Yeldon should help in the pass game.  I think Singletary was a waste of a pick but he is young and may provide some elusiveness that Gore and Yeldon won't.  I would have chosen TE and WR in third round instead of RB. But going with Singletary now gives the organization a year to evaluate him prior to the 2020 draft.

 

I still disagree on some of this.  Truthfully, deciding who had the better season in McCoy vs Ivory is like splitting hairs, neither did a great job and a big part of that had to do with the OL.  I think Ivory just did a slightly better job getting positive yards, albeit not many, than Shady who would lose yards and sometimes as much as 4 to 5 yards because he was dancing too much and it put the team in even longer situations more than we should have been.

 

But, they did not just cut Ivory...they replaced Ivory with a better version of Ivory in Gore.  Had they cut Ivory and just drafted a shifty RB, sure I would buy some of this more.  But they didn't, they brought in someone who was excellent at getting positive yards last year in a bad situation.

 

Im personally of the mindset that McCoy will bounce back and will start week 1.  BUT:  Gore was on a terrible offense with a terrible OL himself, and yet he averages a whopping 1.4 yards more per carry than McCoy.  Its foolish to ignore that.  If Gore is coming and hitting the holes better and consistently getting 4 plus yards on his carries and McCoy is still dancing too much, its not out of the question they tap Gore ahead of McCoy.

 

But like I said, I still personally believe Shady will bounce back with this better OL and better passing game around him too.  I am just saying its also no guarantee that happens and not of the question that Gore could surprise and over take him if he is gaining yards more consistently.  

 

PS:  You are wrong on Devin, he is a legit RB prospect.  Does not mean he is some lock to be a stud, but it was not a wasted pick and he has some serious upside.  I very much liked the pick and think he is going to be one who may turn some heads this preseason and camp.  

Edited May 8, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Augie]

23 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

It's not pink. It's rose. And it's delicious. 

 

For the record, blue cheese

 

It was described at the time as pink. I thought it was amusing.  The Veuve Rose is the only champagne my wife will touch, unless it’s in a mimosa. It can indeed be delicious. 

[IgotBILLStopay]

It is even odds whether shady has anything left in the tank. Last season everyone was running against Miami but Shady couldn’t do much. If it the OL that was to blame, shady will bounce back. If not he will make way for Gore Yeldon and Singletary.

[John from Riverside]

59 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

When you draft a running back in the 3rd round, the expectation is that he's going to be the long term starter. If Singletary is not that, it was a poor allocation of resources.

And who is to say that is not?   Just because he doesnt start the season?  With the exception of Yeldon our rb's were OLD with Shady starting to look a lot like a cap casulty the next year and Gore on a 1 year deal?

[Putin]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Whoa.  What?  Does McCoy need to be pushed to be the STARTER?  Shady not gonna like these comments...

That’s what I was just thinking , 

( IMO ) I don’t believe Sheddy worries about losing his job to Gore or TJ , , if anything the addition of a rookie might give him/Sheddy an extra motivation because he knows that this could be his potential replacement moving forward , 

and yes I agree with you about Sheddy not liking these comments , Ithink that with the rebuild OL and with a better passing game Shaddy will have a great year 

[Shooter McGavin]

I didn’t catch most of his games last year, but Gore’s still got it

 

 

[LSHMEAB]

8 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

And who is to say that is not?   Just because he doesnt start the season?  With the exception of Yeldon our rb's were OLD with Shady starting to look a lot like a cap casulty the next year and Gore on a 1 year deal?

I'm not stating declaratively that Singetary is not the answer(though I have my doubts). I just don't think a fresh 21 year old 3rd round pick should be viewed as someone you stash away. You're likely to get the most production out of a back very early in their career, so I'd like to see him emerge as either the starter or the clear cut number 2 behind Shady or Gore.

 

It's sort of odd that Parinno extrapolates that Shady would be gone if Gore beats him out for the #1 role. Would he cause problems in the locker room? The implication that he's gone if he's not the starter is interesting. Not sure why he couldn't play a role as a 3rd down back other than ego.

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I'm not stating declaratively that Singetary is not the answer(though I have my doubts). I just don't think a fresh 21 year old 3rd round pick should be viewed as someone you stash away. You're likely to get the most production out of a back very early in their career, so I'd like to see him emerge as either the starter or the clear cut number 2 behind Shady or Gore.

 

It's sort of odd that Parinno extrapolates that Shady would be gone if Gore beats him out for the #1 role. Would he cause problems in the locker room? The implication that he's gone if he's not the starter is interesting. Not sure why he couldn't play a role as a 3rd down back other than ego.

I am not positive that Shady is gone under any circumstances this year.....my concern is injury.....older backs get nicked up

 

If that happens.....I will feel very good about this pick...and it doesnt mean we cant draft another one next year as well

[Dablitzkrieg]

1 hour ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

“It was Frank’s turn”.

Noooooooooooooo?

[bmur66]

Suddenly I’m feeling pretty good about our backfield

[The Firebaugh Kid]

I call bullshizzle. 

[Jay_Fixit]

7 hours ago, Canadian Bills Fan said:

Not regretting adding him in my dynasty league for this season 

You will.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, teef said:

this feels like nonsense.

 

 

Why?

 

Gore had a clearly better season than McCoy last year.

 

Gore has more than 4K more career rushing yards than McCoy.

 

His style is more conducive to keeping the offense "on schedule".

 

He's also more reliable having made 126 straight starts dating back to 2010 prior to missing the last two games of last season with a foot sprain.    

 

He's a HOF'er whether casual NFL fans(aka most Bills fans) know it or not.

5 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

They are still millions under the cap this year and next. What difference does salary make? 

 

 

 

Cap dollars can be rolled over.     Presumably soon some of the Bills young players will actually be good and start getting $20M per year contracts.  You can start extending first contracts after 3 years.     If Allen is a stud he will get $40M per at the end of his rookie deal.    When you start having multiple players that eat up 10% of your cap room then money not wasted before matters.

[US Egg]

Beane: Gore will push McCoy.

 

Don't teams still bring around Jim Brown in camps to do that ? Gore was probably cheaper.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Barring injury there is no reasonable scenario that any of the backs beat out Shady for the starting role.

I just don't understand the anti-McCoy sentiment around here. They have literally changed 4 of the 5 OL and the TE. Shady was a good teammate taking the blame for his lack of production but the line was the worst in the NFL. 

Competition is great and Shady will respond positively. He wants to make HOF and he knows he needs 2500 yards or so make it. That means at least three good seasons of production.

I suspect by week 6, they will announce Shady has signed a two year extension.

 

 

You are living in denial with your overconfidence in McCoy.

 

He is a scatback who has produced below average ypc over his LAST 450 CARRIES.

 

It's not a small sample size...........he is not as explosive as he once was and that means those moves don't create space and missed tackles like they used to.

 

He's also constantly nagged by minor injuries as well.

 

The excuses made for McCoy the past couple of seasons are reminiscent of those made for Thurman Thomas from 1993-1997.     It was always 'well if the blocking was better" and "well if he could just fully heal from that nagging injury" he'd still be that league MVP running back.

 

It never happened of course and he lost a full ypc off his previous production peaks from earlier in his career.

 

Thurman may have been as good *sometimes* as he was but he couldn't sustain it over a season.    Unless Shady hits the HGH he's not turning back his RB clock.

 

[Rocky Landing]

16 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You are living in denial with your overconfidence in McCoy.

 

He is a scatback who has produced below average ypc over his LAST 450 CARRIES.

 

It's not a small sample size...........he is not as explosive as he once was and that means those moves don't create space and missed tackles like they used to.

 

He's also constantly nagged by minor injuries as well.

 

The excuses made for McCoy the past couple of seasons are reminiscent of those made for Thurman Thomas from 1993-1997.     It was always 'well if the blocking was better" and "well if he could just fully heal from that nagging injury" he'd still be that league MVP running back.

 

It never happened of course and he lost a full ypc off his previous production peaks from earlier in his career.

 

Thurman may have been as good *sometimes* as he was but he couldn't sustain it over a season.    Unless Shady hits the HGH he's not turning back his RB clock.

 

A couple things strike me about your arguments:

"He is a scatback who has produced below average ypc over his LAST 450 CARRIES." It's an interesting choice to throw out that "450 Carry" metric, and perhaps a bit misleading. His production was cut in half last season compared to the two previous seasons. It's not a stretch for someone to suggest that it might, at least partially, be due to the Bills going from a strong(ish) O-line in '17, '16 to a total crap O-line in 2018. But, it seems like you might be suggesting that the reason for his drop in production (which you've only hinted at by using the 450 carry metric), is a function of his age (which you're also only hinting at-- "not turning back his RB clock...") which is a strange argument when you're advocating for another RB who is five years older.

[njbuff]

Once the playoffs role around, Singletary will be the man.

 

?

[MacGyver]

This would not work for most veteran players, their attitude would assume a certain kind of tenure. However, McCoy is a good soldier. This just might work to light a big enough fire under his ass to finish his career all out. Or it could be a terrible idea, we'll find out!

[John from Riverside]

12 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

This would not work for most veteran players, their attitude would assume a certain kind of tenure. However, McCoy is a good soldier. This just might work to light a big enough fire under his ass to finish his career all out. Or it could be a terrible idea, we'll find out!

Oh I definately think he feels this is his team

 

This is the way I see it.....I look at Singletary as that talented guy that is sitting in the pitcher's box while the starters are doing their thing......but Shady has also had issues with hamstrings over his career.......and Gore I like much more as a relief guy.

 

This is going to all work out.....I think Singletary is going to be a stud and his time will come.....I like having too many good player at a position then not enough

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Why?

 

Gore had a clearly better season than McCoy last year.

 

Gore has more than 4K more career rushing yards than McCoy.

 

His style is more conducive to keeping the offense "on schedule".

 

He's also more reliable having made 126 straight starts dating back to 2010 prior to missing the last two games of last season with a foot sprain.    

 

He's a HOF'er whether casual NFL fans(aka most Bills fans) know it or not.

 

 

Cap dollars can be rolled over.     Presumably soon some of the Bills young players will actually be good and start getting $20M per year contracts.  You can start extending first contracts after 3 years.     If Allen is a stud he will get $40M per at the end of his rookie deal.    When you start having multiple players that eat up 10% of your cap room then money not wasted before matters.

That’s a bit of a reach. Dawkins is the only player of note up for a new contract extension as he would be entering his final year. I guess you can include Milano too. Hyde, Poyer, White, Allen, and Edmunds are all under contract until 2021 or beyond. None of them will get extensions next year.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

12 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

Didn't expect that.

 

 

[formerlyofCtown]

11 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Too late Beanie Boy...you had your shot when fans were screaming to trade Shady during the tank...?

Yes the whole 20 of you.

[H2o]

Gore is just not the player he was. Can he still be effective in a spot role? Sure, but he's not going to beat Shady out as the starter. Shady is going to bounce back behind a much improved OL. The guy to watch is Singletary. I think he is going to push Gore for the backup spot. 

[Mat68]

Shady has trained with Gore for a few years now.  Imo, trying to do what Gore does because he has been able to thrive past 30 better than any other back in recent memory.  I think it's fair to say, yes Gore will push Shady.  Why?  Who is more accomplished?  Gore.  Who is higher on the all time rushing list? Gore.  If it's a popularity contest? Or the spot is given to seniority? Gore.  Shady has to out work him, and out produce him from now to September to be the starter.  Every team Gore goes to he starts over younger guys with more potential.  Will Buffalo be any different?

[richardb1952]

12 hours ago, Shooter McGavin said:

I didn’t catch most of his games last year, but Gore’s still got it

 

 

 

Gore sure takes a lot of hits.  I hope with the improvements in the OL, he can do it one more season.  For Shady, it's hard to find holes when you're interior line is being pushed back 3 yards behind the line of scrimmage.  It's like they all thought they were pass blocking.  I feel last year the opposing defenses played the run and made whatever QB Bills put out there beat them, especially with the poor WRs they had last year.  This year, Allen starts as the #1, not the #3, OL line is better, WRs are better.  All that should help the Running game get on track, which will help the entire offense.  However, if I'm an opposing Defense, I am going to play the Run first and make Allen beat me with his passing.  

[teef]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Why?

 

Gore had a clearly better season than McCoy last year.

 

Gore has more than 4K more career rushing yards than McCoy.

 

His style is more conducive to keeping the offense "on schedule".

 

He's also more reliable having made 126 straight starts dating back to 2010 prior to missing the last two games of last season with a foot sprain.    

 

He's a HOF'er whether casual NFL fans(aka most Bills fans) know it or not.

 

gore isn't exactly a hidden secret as you want to make him out to be.  i like gore.  a lot.  he's had a great career, and i wouldn't be surprised if he's a larger part of the production the mccoy.  i have no idea if mccoy was hitting a wall last year, or it his play was a result of very bad line play.  we'll see.  on top of that, what if singletary ends up with the bulk of production?  does it really matter?  i just want the run game to move the ball and help josh out.  where the production comes from doesn't matter to me at all.  nor does it for the gm.  they're all pushing each other to be the starter, so yes...what beane said was just off season nonsense.

 

are you sure this isn't more about mccoy with you?  didn't you have an unusual hard on for the guy a bit back?  

Edited May 9, 2019 by teef

[KW95 - JA17]

Beane says that Seattle will not sign that Detroit Defender....

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

A couple things strike me about your arguments:

"He is a scatback who has produced below average ypc over his LAST 450 CARRIES." It's an interesting choice to throw out that "450 Carry" metric, and perhaps a bit misleading. His production was cut in half last season compared to the two previous seasons. It's not a stretch for someone to suggest that it might, at least partially, be due to the Bills going from a strong(ish) O-line in '17, '16 to a total crap O-line in 2018. But, it seems like you might be suggesting that the reason for his drop in production (which you've only hinted at by using the 450 carry metric), is a function of his age (which you're also only hinting at-- "not turning back his RB clock...") which is a strange argument when you're advocating for another RB who is five years older.

 

He IS a scatback.    That style requires speed and quickness........which are harder to sustain at his age than the power game that is Frank Gore.   Think of heavyweight fighters.  Power is the last thing to go which is why Gore has been able to sustain with his style.

 

McCoy was below league average(4.2) ypc in 2017 behind what you call a "strong(ish) O-line"...........that's where the 450 carry number comes from........it's both 2017 & 2018 that he was below league average ypc.   Combined OR Separately.   Both.

 

 Now if you are a power back your style takes a toll on defenders........which creates opportunities for ball control or bigger plays for other runners/receivers later in the game.........it's a very old and successful formula.   Go back to 2016 and look at the weights of the top 15 rushers.   All big backs EXCEPT McCoy.   It's still the style the league prefers, especially as LB's get smaller and quicker.   I've always tacked a yard per carry over their production onto powerful RB's.    

 

McCoy doesn't exact a toll on defenses though.   

 

He's also a terrible pass blocker where Gore is an exceptional one so having Shady on the field on 3rd down means you gotta' give it to him OR get your QB hit........which is why it's not been a lock that he'd be on the field on 3rd downs since he came to Buffalo.

 

McCoy also can't do short yardage or goal line.........plays that, incidentally, LOWER a players ypc which makes McCoy's low ypc without them even more glaring.

 

I am hoping for a bounce back year from Shady like everyone else.   Hoping he hit the James Harrison juice this offseason.    I also don't expect Frank Gore to produce forever.    But like I said people are giving McCoy a pass for the past TWO SEASONS like it doesn't matter that he's also WELL past the expiration date for his style of game as it is.   

[Buffalo86]

3 minutes ago, teef said:

gore isn't exactly a hidden secret as you want to make him out to be.  i like gore.  a lot.  he's had a great career, and i wouldn't be surprised if he's a larger part of the production the mccoy.  i have no idea if mccoy was hitting a wall last year, or it his play was a result of very bad line play.  we'll see.  on top of that, what if singletary ends up with the bulk of production?  does it really matter?  i just want the run game to move the ball and help josh out.  where the production comes from doesn't matter to me at all.  nor does it for the gm.  they're all pushing each other to be the starter, so yes...what beane said was just off season nonsense.

 

are you sure this isn't more about mccoy with you?  didn't you have an unusual hard on for the guy a bit back?  

 

Trying my best not to imagine what an unusual hard on looks like...

[teef]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo86 said:

 

Trying my best not to imagine what an unusual hard on looks like...

it's one of those things you don't want to google.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, teef said:

gore isn't exactly a hidden secret as you want to make him out to be.  i like gore.  a lot.  he's had a great career, and i wouldn't be surprised if he's a larger part of the production the mccoy.  i have no idea if mccoy was hitting a wall last year, or it his play was a result of very bad line play.  we'll see.  on top of that, what if singletary ends up with the bulk of production?  does it really matter?  i just want the run game to move the ball and help josh out.  where the production comes from doesn't matter to me at all.  nor does it for the gm.  they're all pushing each other to be the starter, so yes...what beane said was just off season nonsense.

 

are you sure this isn't more about mccoy with you?  didn't you have an unusual hard on for the guy a bit back?  

 

 

You said it was "nonsense" which implies there was a massive disparity between what McCoy and Gore bring to the table.

 

There's not.    In fact beside the raw numbers Gore is actually excellent at a lot of what Shady is traditionally poor at.......blitz pickup, not taking TFL's, short yardage and goal line conversion.........things traditionally seen as good for helping out a young QB along. 

 

Your response was a rapid back pedal from what you originally said...........that was the point of my response to you so mission accomplished.

 

I do hope that McCoy bounces back.........he needs to be used properly..........and I'd hope that Singletary turns into the every down back by 2020 if not at some point this year.   Just not sure he is THAT good.   I had him as RB1 in a poor RB class.    Hopefully the Bills prove me wrong with the pick and he turns into a Kareem Hunt or Alvin Kamara type producer.

 

 

[billybob71]

I feel like McCoy could be a surprise release this preseason not sure what the cap ramifications would be tho.

[teef]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You said it was "nonsense" which implies there was a massive disparity between what McCoy and Gore bring to the table.

 

There's not.    In fact beside the raw numbers Gore is actually excellent at a lot of what Shady is traditionally poor at.......blitz pickup, not taking TFL's, short yardage and goal line conversion.........things traditionally seen as good for helping out a young QB along. 

 

Your response was a rapid back pedal from what you originally said...........that was the point of my response to you so mission accomplished.

 

I do hope that McCoy bounces back.........he needs to be used properly..........and I'd hope that Singletary turns into the every down back by 2020 if not at some point this year.   Just not sure he is THAT good.   I had him as RB1 in a poor RB class.    Hopefully the Bills prove me wrong with the pick and he turns into a Kareem Hunt or Alvin Kamara type producer.

 

 

no.  this is you doing you.  there's really not much of an argument to be had.  it was nonsense off season talk.  who cares.  you're going to turn this into a badolbilz thing, aren't you?  you know...where you carry on a strange crusade that no one really cares about.  you'll twist words, exaggerate truths, and often, straight up lie to prove a point?  yeah...i'm good with that.