We have not taken a step back.

[SoonerBillsFan]

I read many posts saying this team has taken a step back and truth is we have not. Lets break it down.

Offense:

QB = Same

RB =  Same

WR = Improved. Samuel IS an  upgrade over Davis

OL =  Same/ slightly improved  Morse was old, and light in the butt. McGovern is younger and has played center and been prepping for this moment

TE =  Improved. Kincaid now has a year of experience and will hit the weight room

OC =  improved. I cant wait to see his own system implemented

 

So the offense is slightly improved.

 

Defense:

DL = Same to slightly improved. We are all praying Von improves, and so far I feel we have improved our depth. We need to increase pass rush through the draft.

LB =  Improved. We will get Milano back and our other LB's greatly stepped up

CB: = Slightly Improved. Douglas now has time in our system and a full offseason to get it down. Benford has another year and hopefully the new DB coach can help Elam

Safety: = Slightly improved. This is the one position I expect hysterical wailing and gnashing of teeth on, but Hyde and Poyer were showing their age badly last year. I say the two new starters just have to be smart (keep your damn head and eyes up Rapp!) and be in the right position at the right time and tackle. 

 

Defense = Same to slightly improved

 

Do we still need WR, esp. Diggs replacement and an upgrade, yes. Do we still need to use draft picks on the Defense, Absolutely.  We are always looking to improve, but we are no where near as bad off as some fans, and media, want to make it out to be. 

Edited March 24 by SoonerBillsFan

[NI Bills Fan]

I agree to an extent and like the positivity, but find it hard to agree on the D Line and safety positions, we need a pass rush threat at DE (to replace Floyd) and a bit more at safety before I could say we've actually improved there.

[Your Brown Eye]

I agree, nothing was coming out of some of those teets last year. We needed to get a herd of new cattle in to help our Alpha Male QB1

[RobbRiddick]

To me the defense is what it is. Even with all the injuries last season it played well and helped us secure a playoff spot. I'll be honest, after all those injuries early in the season I thought we were dead, but McD always seems to get the best out of them, until we play KC that is, but adding loads of pieces on D wouldn't help too much in that regard imo. 

 

That's why I'm all for adding as many pieces as possible to the offense in the draft, WR round one and then take a flyer on another in the later rounds, more o line depth, another RB, maybe a specialist who is a speedy threat catching screens on 3rd down. Just give Josh as many weapons as possible.

 

Even if the D takes a slight step back we can just blow teams off the field so they'll have to score a tonne to beat us.

[That's No Moon]

That certainly is the optimistic way of looking at it.

[Mat68]

I think being  realistic you would have to down grade Oline, Edge, and saftey

[BeastMaster]

I'll say this...Gabe Davis was made by Josh Allen, and I don't think he will be missed at all. Samuel, Hollins, and whoever else we draft is a massive improvement to our receiving group.

 

The defense will mostly depend on if Von can be a force rushing the QB. The safety position will likely get at least one guy in the draft to compete with the current group...so while I do have concerns about the safeties and the lack of speed in our secondary, I think they should be about the same as last season.

 

We need to get a WR and Safety that can play in this draft, and we need OL and DL prospects to groom for the future 

[Toyo321]

I think we are worse at S, DL and WR.  I hate to bring in a sore subject but our kicking game is going to tank this year.  Bass is going be a liability this year.

Special teams we will have to wait and see.  We don't have anyone as a threat to return kicks this year they are all gone. Hines was the only guy that could have returned to fix that issue and he is gone now.   Have to wait until after OTA's and training camp is over to see where we are.

Edited March 24 by Toyo321

[Chaos]

Well we finished top 8 again last year.  Most any roster with Josh Allen at QB, is a top 8 roster.  I think the real question is "Have we taken a step forward?"

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

I think being  realistic you would have to down grade Oline, Edge, and saftey

 

Depends entirely on McGovern.  The rest are the same or better (rookie year behind Torrence).

 

As for safety, I think they'll ultimately field a better tandem than last year.  Edge likely takes a hit though.

 

 

[hondo in seattle]

12 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Well we finished top 8 again last year.  Most any roster with Josh Allen at QB, is a top 8 roster.  I think the real question is "Have we taken a step forward?"

 

That's the right question.  

 

Offense.  

 

WR - maybe a slight step forward.

 

OL - I'm not sure how shedding Morse and picking up the Clapp makes the OL better.

 

OC - I don't know if Brady will be better this year than last year.  I hope so.  But saying so is just hope and speculation. 

 

Overall, the O seems about the same.

 

Defense.  

 

We lost some good starters and gained some low-end starters and back-ups.  The secondary, in particular, doesn't look as stout as it did back when Poyer, Hyde, and Tre were all in their primes.  I'm not seeing a better roster.  

 

But health is a factor here.  If Milano and the D stays healthier this season than it has in past years, and if Von returns to form, we could perform better defensively than last year.

 

The offseason isn't over yet but - other than Mafia Optimism - I see no reason to believe the roster is better than another top eight finish.  

 

 

 

Edited March 24 by hondo in seattle

[davefan66]

Morse is a bigger than loss people think. Great repport with Josh and smart guy to call the line.

 

As said above, are we treading water or making a step forward?

I don’t see us as better with the moves so far as much as stayed the same.

[Taro Nimbus]

According to all the talking heads in the media, the Bills window has closed and we have took a huge step back after letting go a bunch of aging vets and an injury plagued corner.   

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

That's the right question.  

 

Offense.  

 

WR - maybe a slight step forward.

 

OL - I'm not sure how shedding Morse and picking up the Clap makes the OL better.

 

OC - I don't know if Brady will be better this year than last year.  I hope so.  But saying so is just hope and speculation. 

 

Overall, the O seems about the same.

 

Defense.  

 

We lost some good starters and gained some low-end starters and back-ups.  The secondary, in particular, doesn't look as stout as it did back when Poyer, Hyde, and Tre were all in their primes.  I'm not seeing a better roster.  

 

But health is a factor here.  If Milano and the D stays healthier this season than it has in past years, and if Von returns to form, we could perform better defensively than last year.

 

The offseason isn't over yet but - other than Mafia Optimism - I see no reason to believe the roster is better than another top eight finish. 

 

McGovern is the putative starter.  Clapp is the backup.

 

As for the secondary, Poyer was washed and Tre missed almost the entire season.  And I think at worst they could get Hyde to come back given the soft safety market.  Linebacker will be set.  The issue is replacing Floyd.  Hopefully that's done by Von.

[Special K]

25 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

We need to get a WR and Safety that can play in this draft, and we need OL and DL prospects to groom for the future 

 

This should be the plan heading into the draft, IMO.

[NoSaint]

I don’t think we took one back but I didn’t think we took much of one forward last year either. 
 

snag a WR, safety, and DE between rd1-2, and a last vet free agent and we may even be a step forward of last year. 
 

the problem being I think the bengals, chargers, possibly jets, and even if Wilson is passable the Steelers… could all be massive steps forward from last year. And that is not good for us. 
 

Last year I was saying we could be anywhere from 2-6 in the conference and I’m nervous that not as many breaks will land in our favor. We will see. 

[GunnerBill]

There is about a 1% chance that Rapp and Edwards are an upgrade even on 33 year old Hyde and Poyer. 

 

Poyer was still really good last year after the first couple of weeks where he was knocking some rust off. Hyde did struggle a bit more (in fairness in centre field your legs going shows up a bit more) but he was still a serviceable starter. That is like the ceiling of what Mike Edwards has been in his NFL career and probably a tick ahead of what Rapp has been.

[Heavy Kevi]

Which direction are we stepping then?

 

Certainly not stepping forward with McD still at the helm.

 

This is a cap correction year while we wait for real leadership from a new HC.

 

How much longer do we waste josh with this regime?

 

 

 

 

And now Harbaugh is in LA so they will be in a SB or 2 in the coming years. The chargers getting better is just another obstacle. Plus the obstacle of Cincy which we apparently just can't play well against has their QB back.

 

 

 

This is the "box step" at best.

[sven233]

DE/Pass Rush, DT, S, WR, LG still need upgrades in my opinion.  There are some other spots that could use work, but are passable with the starters.  I realize you can't have all pros at every position, but you still need solid play.  

 

While I do think Von will be better this season than he was last, it's still hard to project him being a double digit sack guy like he was before the injury.  AJ was nice to keep for depth, but he runs so hot and cold, you never know what you are going to get week to week.  I like Groot, though, and think he will improve once again this season.  But, there is no doubt we could use some extra pop off the edge.  In terms of DT, Oliver is is stud.  Jones is really good too if he can stay healthy.  But, we could use another 3 tech with some real pass rush ability.  I don't want to have to see Ed out there for 75% of the snaps.  Hard to keep him fresh for the playoffs with that load.  Safety is tough.  We are so used to having Hyde and Poyer back there holding things down, but it became very obvious to those that have watched those guys closely over the years that they just couldn't run anymore.  They played hard and with the vet instincts they had, but they were not the same players last year.  Did we upgrade there, though?  Maybe athletically, but I am not sure we can expect them to be better than Hyde and Poyer were even last year.  We could use another playmaker back there for sure.  WR is still an obvious need.  While Samuel is an upgrade over the room we had last year, I'd rather him be featured in the slot and not outside.  Over 70% of his snaps have come in the slot the last few years and I want him and Shakir to share the load there.  I look at Samuel/Shakir as an upgrade to Sherfield and Harty.  I still want another beast on the outside at WR2.   Finally, the Edwards/McGovern switch.  I thought McGovern was pretty solid overall last season.  Wasn't perfect or flashy, but he was solid for the most part.  Can he make the move to C?  I don't know.  Maybe.  But to say he will be better than Morse was is a bit of a reach.  He was still playing very good football for us last season.  Hopefully McGovern can make the switch and holds it down for us for the next several years, but I am not ready to call him an upgrade at C yet.  Edwards.....to me is a backup.  He was great in his role last year, but to me, there is no way he is going to be better for us than McGovern was for us at LG last year.  I think we could use another home run Guard pick like Torrence was last year to compete for that spot. 

 

Regardless, I do think our demise that the talking heads are proclaiming is being severely overblown to nobody's surprise.  Are we better?  I am not ready to say that yet.  If we can hit one 2 year one starters at key positions in the draft (ie. WR, S, and maybe even a G), then I will say the same thing I have been saying over the last several year......anything is possible because we have Josh Allen.  But we still need to get him some more help and hit on some studs in this draft.

[GunnerBill]

43 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Well we finished top 8 again last year.  Most any roster with Josh Allen at QB, is a top 8 roster.  I think the real question is "Have we taken a step forward?"

 

I think this is right around 8th.... as I said yesterday I think probably 5th or 6th best in the AFC and then there is San Fran, Detroit and possibly still Philly in the NFC. It is definitely a step back on where the roster has been. But there is still a chance to change that if they can crush the draft. But they need like a 2017 Saints type draft and they don't have the 6 picks in the first 103 that the Saints had and nailed that year.

[hondo in seattle]

23 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

McGovern is the putative starter.  Clapp is the backup.

 

As for the secondary, Poyer was washed and Tre missed almost the entire season.  And I think at worst they could get Hyde to come back given the soft safety market.  Linebacker will be set.  The issue is replacing Floyd.  Hopefully that's done by Von.

 

Doc, I know McGovern is the starter.  He was already on the squad last season, so I don't know how Morse's departure makes us better as the OP asserted when the OL roster clearly got worse (Morse released, Clapp signed).    Maybe McGovern will be a revelation as a starting center and play better than Morse.  And maybe Edwards, who seems likely to take over McGovern's vacated guard spot, plays guard better than McGovern.  But it's too many maybes.  

 

And for DE...  Floyd gave us double digit sacks last season.  If you want to think about it this way, his replacement as stud DE is Von who's coming off a significant injury and hasn't had double-digit sack production since 2018.  

 

Overall, I'm just not seeing a better roster - yet.  Though I'm hoping for the following:

 

*  Our key defensive players are healthier this season than they've been the past couple of years.

 

*  Beane finds some impact players in free agency and the draft.

 

*  Brady turns out to be a lights-out OC who gets the most out of his offensive players.  

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

I read many posts saying this team has taken a step back and truth is we have not. Lets break it down.

Offense:

QB = Same

RB =  Same

WR = Improved. Samuel IS an  upgrade over Davis

OL =  Same/ slightly improved  Morse was old, and light in the butt. McGovern is younger and has played center and been prepping for this moment

TE =  Improved. Kincaid now has a year of experience and will hit the weight room

OC =  improved. I cant wait to see his own system implemented

 

So the offense is slightly improved.

 

Defense:

DL = Same to slightly improved. We are all praying Von improves, and so far I feel we have improved our depth. We need to increase pass rush through the draft.

LB =  Improved. We will get Milano back and our other LB's greatly stepped up

CB: = Slightly Improved. Douglas now has time in our system and a full offseason to get it down. Benford has another year and hopefully the new DB coach can help Elam

Safety: = Slightly improved. This is the one position I expect hysterical wailing and gnashing of teeth on, but Hyde and Poyer were showing their age badly last year. I say the two new starters just have to be smart (keep your damn head and eyes up Rapp!) and be in the right position at the right time and tackle. 

 

Defense = Same to slightly improved

 

Do we still need WR, esp. Diggs replacement and an upgrade, yes. Do we still need to use draft picks on the Defense, Absolutely.  We are always looking to improve, but we are no where near as bad off as some fans, and media, want to make it out to be. 

Improved relative to the league? No.

[90sBills]

At best it’s even, roster wise, compared to last year. But it’s not a step back. Bills will still win the division and be #2 or #3 in the playoffs again. That’s where it will end. This roster hasn’t taken any significant steps forward in terms of talent so it’s difficult to envision getting past the divisional. That’s our ceiling the last few years and it won’t change. 

[TBBills Fan]

 

Edit: I felt this was relevant 

Edited March 24 by TBBills Fan

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, davefan66 said:

Morse is a bigger than loss people think. Great repport with Josh and smart guy to call the line.

 

As said above, are we treading water or making a step forward?

I don’t see us as better with the moves so far as much as stayed the same.

 

You and @hondo in seattle made the appropriate points.  

 

The other thing that cannot be overstated is the loss of chemistry on D with Poyer & Hyde both gone.  That's some serious experience and on-field leadership that's now gone.  

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

After reading this I am convinced that if JA retired and KA was starting the Bills would be "slightly improved" at QB.

[MJS]

Well, I disagree. I think the team is a little worse. Nothing too drastic, but the offensive line is clearly worse. Worse depth and a backup from last year is now penciled in as a starter. Bates is gone and he was quality depth.

 

Hyde and Poyer are gone. They weren't the best last year, so maybe it's a push. We're worse at edge rusher without Floyd. No depth at defensive tackle.

 

The only position that appears to be stronger is wide receiver, which is good.

 

However, we're still in the middle of things. The draft hasn't even happened. Beane will sign more players before camp. I have no reason to believe the Bills won't field a very competitive team that is as good or better than last year's.

[gordong]

I'd say we are a little worse on both sides of the ball (as we sit here today) . go draft a stud WR and find another Pass rusher either in FA or a draft and we could take a leap forward finally.  I still think if we would have signed Hopkin last year we would be champs.. I hope they learned a lesson and get another WR high this year.  

Edited March 24 by gordong

[Buddy Hix]

I don’t see it. Diggs is getting old and Brady doesn’t know how to use him. The OL is a big question mark, same with the DL and safeties.

 

 

[Big Blitz]

Everywhere else is at least - on par.  Oline we absolutely have.  I’m not going to say this means draft the C in round 1 bc we definitely aren’t.  Not that I’d hate it but whatever..

 

Of every change happening nothing is even close to what we’re tinkering with in the IOL.  Everything about this organization’s “analytics” regarding salary and Guard play says they don’t value the positions.  
 

Yet they recognized they needed Morse in 2019.  They realized they needed a Guard (2!) in 2023 and drafted Torrence.  That fixed our interior after years of negligence and trading Teller.  Now we’re creating 2 new holes to fill.

 

Best Oline of Allen’s career and made Cook a 1000 plus yard back.  James Cook who I’m not really sure what he is yet.  Felt too inconsistent last year I feel like the Oline was just dominant and physical when it needed to be.  

 

So this isn’t just about protecting Allen.  The run game is at risk for taking a step back.  Edwards and McGovern are not good run blockers.  The game has shifted more to you need to be able to run and I’m not confident in this plan.  Feels like we’re doing the cheap version of what the Eagles are doing.  

Edited March 24 by Big Blitz

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Well, I disagree. I think the team is a little worse. Nothing too drastic, but the offensive line is clearly worse. Worse depth and a backup from last year is now penciled in as a starter. Bates is gone and he was quality depth.

 

Hyde and Poyer are gone. They weren't the best last year, so maybe it's a push. We're worse at edge rusher without Floyd. No depth at defensive tackle.

 

The only position that appears to be stronger is wide receiver, which is good.

 

However, we're still in the middle of things. The draft hasn't even happened. Beane will sign more players before camp. I have no reason to believe the Bills won't field a very competitive team that is as good or better than last year's.

I am not really sure why folks care so much about trying to pretend the Bills are a better football. We still have Josh. It doesn't really matter.

 

How Bills fans, that suffered through the drought and Brady kicking our teeth in every year, have somehow forgotten that a great QB matters infinitely more than the talent level of the other 52 spots is one of life's biggest mysteries.

[HOUSE]

I think the problem is you read to many posts

[90sBills]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I am not really sure why folks care so much about trying to pretend the Bills are a better football. We still have Josh. It doesn't really matter.

It matters because these playoffs exits have proven that just having Allen is not enough. He needs help. 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

It matters because these playoffs exits have proven that just having Allen is not enough. He needs help. 

Then we should compare ourselves to the playoff teams that keep showing us the door.

 

Have we closed the gap between us and KC by cutting Mitch Morse and moving McGovern to center and making Rapp a starting safety?

 

No. Obviously not.

[finn]

This board was pretty bullish last year at this time, as I recall. People were optimistic with things returning to normal after the truly weird 2022 season. Gabe Davis would finally shine, his injury behind him, Von and Tre would be back, a healthy Poyer and Hyde had another good year in them, Dorsey's offense and Kromer's O-line would improve with a year under its belt, and so on. But so many things went south, especially injuries. 

 

So, yes, I'm optimistic, but cautiously so. Actually, I'm most worried about Bass. You need a reliable kicker to win in this league, and Bass was not reliable last year.

[90sBills]

33 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Then we should compare ourselves to the playoff teams that keep showing us the door.

 

Have we closed the gap between us and KC by cutting Mitch Morse and moving McGovern to center and making Rapp a starting safety?

 

No. Obviously not.

I don’t think it has and it’s hard to envision advancing further than divisional. But they still have to play the games so who knows. Let’s be optimistic. 

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

I don’t think it has and it’s hard to envision advancing further than divisional. But they still have to play the games so who knows. Let’s be optimistic. 

The fun thing about football is you can have a worse team and still win the Superbowl.

 

The greatest Pats team of the dynasty lost in the Superbowl. One of their worst teams of the dynasty won it in 2019. No one would ever argue that the 2019 team was better than the 2007 team. There's no reason to try to blind ourselves.

[buffblue]

3 hours ago, davefan66 said:

Morse is a bigger than loss people think. Great repport with Josh and smart guy to call the line.

 

As said above, are we treading water or making a step forward?

I don’t see us as better with the moves so far as much as stayed the same.

As the old saying goes, if you're not getting better you're getting worse. Still plenty of offseason remaining however

[BarleyNY]

Making a comparison to the previous year’s team is always tricky. The team at the beginning of the season or end? Are you comparing what we thought we had or what we ended up having? There’s a lot of TBD on this team. How much do Von and Milano get back to form? Do aging players - like Diggs - fall off? And if so, how much? How much improvement do we get from young players - like Kincaid and Shakir? What’s the impact of the new coordinators? Lots of questions we can’t answer. Overall it looks to me like the offense will be in good shape, but I have concerns about every level of the defense. 

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

You and @hondo in seattle made the appropriate points.  

 

The other thing that cannot be overstated is the loss of chemistry on D with Poyer & Hyde both gone.  That's some serious experience and on-field leadership that's now gone.  

 

 

True but don't underestimate McDermott's ability to coach up safeties.  The o-line is my main concern as we won't have as much injury luck as we did last year and our depth inside will be a lot weaker.