Dalton Kincaid - Khalil Shakir - Elite Hands - YAC

[BuffaloBill]

Dalton Kincaid and Khalil Shakir are quietly earning more snaps through elite hands.  Neither yet show up on YAC leadership boards but they have not been targeted enough to get there.  

 

Shakir is showing the potential to finally be the “Beasley” role for the Bills where  he finds holes in the D and catches nearly everything thrown his way.

 

Forget about the Kelce / Kincaid comparisons in that they are very different players. Kincaid is showing an unreal ability to display hand and body control. He catches and transitions upfield more smoothly than any player I can recall.  Josh will never be a 100% ball on the numbers QB. He needs a Dalton Kincaid who has hands of glue.  I think this is the reason why Knox has never quite been the absolute Josh target that we want to see. Kincaid just has better hands and adjustment, period.

 

Kincaid and Josh will be a long time pair in the NFL.  Shakir will be a good role player against certain defenses and looks. I hope the Bills coaching staff plays them more as a result.

[DCofNC]

Shakir’s hands are far from elite.  If he can just catch the ball routinely, he can be a good player.   Kincaid looks like an athletic Jason Whitten, not Travis Kelce, but he’s also got some serious room to add muscle.  With time in the weight room and some technical refinement on blocking, he could become a similar player to Kelce.

[John from Riverside]

I’m just glad they’re starting to use shakur I was worried that they were not going to be able to find a way to use him and he was going to get away

 

We need these later round picks to pan out now that we’re paying a franchise quarterback

[Chaos]

KIncaid made a couple of catches against the Bucs that were not great throws.  But he made the catches in stride and without drama.  This is something no one on the Bills in the Josh Allen era has really done, with the possible exception of Diggs. 

[Low Positive]

7 minutes ago, Chaos said:

KIncaid made a couple of catches against the Bucs that were not great throws.  But he made the catches in stride and without drama.  This is something no one on the Bills in the Josh Allen era has really done, with the possible exception of Diggs. 

Exactly. Sometimes pass catchers need to make a play.

[thenorthremembers]

I think last game showed 11 personnel is the way to go.  Sadly, I think it also showed our 17 million dollar a year tight end isn't the best tight end on our roster.

[Beck Water]

24 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

Dalton Kincaid and Khalil Shakir are quietly earning more snaps through elite hands.  Neither yet show up on YAC leadership boards but they have not been targeted enough to get there.  

 

Shakir is showing the potential to finally be the “Beasley” role for the Bills where  he finds holes in the D and catches nearly everything thrown his way.

 

Forget about the Kelce / Kincaid comparisons in that they are very different players. Kincaid is showing an unreal ability to display hand and body control. He catches and transitions upfield more smoothly than any player I can recall.  Josh will never be a 100% ball on the numbers QB. He needs a Dalton Kincaid who has hands of glue.  I think this is the reason why Knox has never quite been the absolute Josh target that we want to see. Kincaid just has better hands and adjustment, period.

 

Kincaid and Josh will be a long time pair in the NFL.  Shakir will be a good role player against certain defenses and looks. I hope the Bills coaching staff plays them more as a result.

 

Kincaid, I believe, genuinely has elite hands and if he doesn't already, will shortly have elite route running.  All the stuff I've seen from him - he's Soooooooo smooth.  He's like a 6'4" ball Hoover, just vacuuming in any football that comes his way and rolling on down the rug.

 

Shakir is in the " great game but I want to see more from you before I get too excited" category for me.  (we have had players who had 1 or 2 great games, then vanished, remember?)  Shakir had 50% catch last season, 10% drops.  There's a reason he wasn't on the field for more snaps last season.  Maybe he got thrown into the fire too fast after injuries and was overwhelmed, but his elite hands were not apparent.

 

But, so far this season he's been steadily gaining snaps and his last two games have been great.  Keep it up, Khalil!

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Are elite hands comparable / compatible to 'jazz hands'? 🤔

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

I think last game showed 11 personnel is the way to go.  Sadly, I think it also showed our 17 million dollar a year tight end isn't the best tight end on our roster.

 

Where are you getting this $17M a year?

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/dawson-knox-29132/

His AAV is $13M, and like most contracts it's back-loaded into the last couple years.  Cap hit $6.43M this season.

 

Which isn't chump change - it made him the 11th highest paid player on the team before the injuries, and #9 TE in AAV - but it's not ridiculous   TE seem to get overpaid, and it's not far off where he was for receptions in 2021.  He did everything the team asked of him in the 2020 off-season, including taking a huge step in improving his catch % and eliminating drops.  I thought last year, he didn't take a further step in receiving yards primarily because of how Dorsey was using him - to chip and release in pass pro, then be a short option - but it may have been because he wasn't learning to out-maneuver his defender at the catch point and find the open spot in zone.

 

Anyway, Knox took a big step back this season in catch % and drops - back toward his rookie or 2nd year, and I don't know if that's because he decided his hands were "cured" and he didn't need to keep up the hard work, or because he's out knocking the "B" out of "Buffalo" as many nights as he can and partying with the ladies.  Maybe it's his wrist and surgery will fix it.

[Bookie Man]

I said this after watching all the video I could find on Kincaid. He starts his football move/makes his way upfield a split second before he catches the ball. It's actually insane how naturally he can do it. That's the main cause of most drops, that the player starts to make his move or take his eyes off the ball a split second before they should. This just is naturally how he catches it. It's ridiculous. He could be a special player. 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I'll say Kincaid has absolutely shown reason to be funneled to. He has an 88% catch rate and always seems to pick up a few YAC. Right now he's a younger Beasley.

 

I'm less enthusiastic about Shakir, but I think he can be what Gabe Davis was at his best: a hypercompetant #4

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

...or because he's out knocking the "B" out of "Buffalo" as many nights as he can and partying with the ladies.  Maybe it's his wrist and surgery will fix it.

You'll need an 'X' account if you want to gain traction from such a scurrilous rumour...😁

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

2 minutes ago, Alpo Chino said:

I said this after watching all the video I could find on Kincaid. He starts his football move/makes his way upfield a split second before he catches the ball. It's actually insane how naturally he can do it. That's the main cause of most drops, that the player starts to make his move or take his eyes off the ball a split second before they should. This just is naturally how he catches it. It's ridiculous. He could be a special player. 

I think it's just instinct. That's what the off-season and training camp scouts noticed but he remains sure handed.  

 

It translates into consistent YAC

[SirAndrew]

Kincaid looks as advertised. This is exactly the type of player with great hands he was in college. I realize things don’t always work out in the pros, but this is why he needed a bigger role, and we’re fortunate it’s going to happen. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBill said:

Dalton Kincaid and Khalil Shakir are quietly earning more snaps through elite hands.  Neither yet show up on YAC leadership boards but they have not been targeted enough to get there.  

 

Shakir is showing the potential to finally be the “Beasley” role for the Bills where  he finds holes in the D and catches nearly everything thrown his way.

 

Forget about the Kelce / Kincaid comparisons in that they are very different players. Kincaid is showing an unreal ability to display hand and body control. He catches and transitions upfield more smoothly than any player I can recall.  Josh will never be a 100% ball on the numbers QB. He needs a Dalton Kincaid who has hands of glue.  I think this is the reason why Knox has never quite been the absolute Josh target that we want to see. Kincaid just has better hands and adjustment, period.

 

Kincaid and Josh will be a long time pair in the NFL.  Shakir will be a good role player against certain defenses and looks. I hope the Bills coaching staff plays them more as a result.

 

 

I haven't re-watched the game yet but one of the aspects of the very quick pass game seemed to be that guys like Davis and Shakir were able to body-catch the ball without the coverage tight to them yet.    Gabe has BAD hands........we know this.   Shakir seems to struggle to track deeper throws and has to leave his feet to collect himself on those so, yeah, he's a short area receiver.    He shows quick, soft hands in practice/warmups on short throws.......his problem in the short area seems to just be concentration drops(really struggled with them in preseason).    Being able to cradle the ball into the arms without a defender there to knock the ball out(like with Knox 4th down drop last week) can make shaky handed receivers of all varieties look much better.

[34-78-83]

All but one, maybe two of Gabe's catches the other night were hands catches, plucks out of the air, previous history not withstanding. Give credit where credit is due, even if its just for one game. Everyone has already heard umpteen million times about his poor hands.

 

 All of both Gabe and Kalil’s catches are displayed here- 

 

Hard working players actually can improve on occasion too ( I know some don’t seem to agree with this), so there is hope, atleast while we have them and can afford them.

Edited October 28, 2023 by 34-78-83

[wettlaufer]

1 hour ago, DCofNC said:

Shakir’s hands are far from elite.  If he can just catch the ball routinely, he can be a good player.   Kincaid looks like an athletic Jason Whitten, not Travis Kelce, but he’s also got some serious room to add muscle.  With time in the weight room and some technical refinement on blocking, he could become a similar player to Kelce.

Shakir is second in the NFL in catch rate, at 93.3%. Huge step up from last year's near-50%. Routes this year feel shorter / quicker. The quick passing game was really humming this game. 11 formation is way better suited to the skill set of this team.

[17islongenough]

Kincaid is what we hoped Knox would be.  Kincaid can make those great catches like the sideline play.   Knox can make those catches too.  But the difference is Kincaid isn't dropping those easy catches Knox does all the time. 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, thenorthremembers said:

I think last game showed 11 personnel is the way to go.  Sadly, I think it also showed our 17 million dollar a year tight end isn't the best tight end on our roster.

I agree....as much as I love Knox, acquiring Kincaid has opened up so many more 11P options for the offense. We unfortunately can't even talk about getting out of Dawson's contract until 2025.

[DCofNC]

19 minutes ago, wettlaufer said:

Shakir is second in the NFL in catch rate, at 93.3%. Huge step up from last year's near-50%. Routes this year feel shorter / quicker. The quick passing game was really humming this game. 11 formation is way better suited to the skill set of this team.

He’s dramatically improved, don’t get me wrong, he’s obviously put in work.  I do think he can be a contributor.  His catch rate is largely due to the “type” of catches he’s asked to make.  He’s sitting in zones and catching simple crossers, they are “high percentage throws” by definition.    He kind of looks like Diggs did early in Minn, he’s shifty, looks to have greatly improved his routes, where he fits is the question.   I’m certainly not expecting him to make the jump Diggs did, that’s not a reasonable expectation, but anything close would be amazing.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Shakir’s hands are far from elite.  If he can just catch the ball routinely, he can be a good player.   Kincaid looks like an athletic Jason Whitten, not Travis Kelce, but he’s also got some serious room to add muscle.  With time in the weight room and some technical refinement on blocking, he could become a similar player to Kelce.

No disrespect at all here, but this is the stuff that makes no sense to me.  On what grounds can you definitively say Shakir is “far” from having great hands?  The thing I hear the most is the catch over turned in the playoffs last year that was more difficult than multiple drops Diggs has had this year.
 

The sample size is too small to decide anything about Shakir’s hands but people still keep selling this narrative.  I mean Shakir and Kincaid have been the most reliable pass catchers on the team in 2023 so far.
 

To be clear and fair, it’s also equally too early to say he has great hands because again the sample size is too small.  But the kid has been great when called upon this year in his second season and has also been a good blocker too.  
 

I’ve been beating the drum for this kid since he was drafted, all offseason and throughout the season to be more involved.  And he’s done nothing but produce when given those chances here in year 2 but still see so many people with this narrative that so far is not accurate about his hands being unreliable.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, 34-78-83 said:

All but one, maybe two of Gabe's catches the other night were hands catches, plucks out of the air, previous history not withstanding. Give credit where credit is due, even if its just for one game. Everyone has already heard umpteen million times about his poor hands.

 

 All of both Gabe and Kalil’s catches are displayed here- 

 

Hard working players actually can improve on occasion too ( I know some don’t seem to agree with this), so there is hope, atleast while we have them and can afford them.

Turners breakdowns are the best 

[juno999]

Shakir 10 targets 10 catches the last 2 games.  Allen was getting rid of the ball quickly and spreading it around.  The Bills offense was clicking in the first half and it didn't look as difficult to move the ball as it has in other games.  Kincaid looks really good already.  Hopefully Shakir can be a solid WR3. Having 4 guys that Allen trusts would be huge for this offense.  Diggs is awesome but need to get steady production from other guys.

Edited October 28, 2023 by juno999

[thenorthremembers]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Where are you getting this $17M a year?

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/dawson-knox-29132/

His AAV is $13M, and like most contracts it's back-loaded into the last couple years.  Cap hit $6.43M this season.

 

Which isn't chump change - it made him the 11th highest paid player on the team before the injuries, and #9 TE in AAV - but it's not ridiculous   TE seem to get overpaid, and it's not far off where he was for receptions in 2021.  He did everything the team asked of him in the 2020 off-season, including taking a huge step in improving his catch % and eliminating drops.  I thought last year, he didn't take a further step in receiving yards primarily because of how Dorsey was using him - to chip and release in pass pro, then be a short option - but it may have been because he wasn't learning to out-maneuver his defender at the catch point and find the open spot in zone.

 

Anyway, Knox took a big step back this season in catch % and drops - back toward his rookie or 2nd year, and I don't know if that's because he decided his hands were "cured" and he didn't need to keep up the hard work, or because he's out knocking the "B" out of "Buffalo" as many nights as he can and partying with the ladies.  Maybe it's his wrist and surgery will fix it.

Honestly the 17 million was just an off the cuff comment while I was stinker tinkering this morning.  I didnt look at spotrac or overthecap like I usually do.  Even at the correct amount my statement stands.

[DapperCam]

2 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

All but one, maybe two of Gabe's catches the other night were hands catches, plucks out of the air, previous history not withstanding. Give credit where credit is due, even if its just for one game. Everyone has already heard umpteen million times about his poor hands.

 

 All of both Gabe and Kalil’s catches are displayed here- 

 

Hard working players actually can improve on occasion too ( I know some don’t seem to agree with this), so there is hope, atleast while we have them and can afford them.

 

Gabe Davis has always made impressive hand catches away from his body. Especially impressive because they are frequently rockets from Allen.

 

Davis’ drops are contested catches (stealing the ball from Minkah Fitzpatrick last year not withstanding), and issues coming in/out of breaks in his route.

 

I’m not sure Davis’ issue is actually his hands when it’s a clean toss and catch.

[Beck Water]

9 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

 

Gabe Davis has always made impressive hand catches away from his body. Especially impressive because they are frequently rockets from Allen.

 

Davis’ drops are contested catches (stealing the ball from Minkah Fitzpatrick last year not withstanding), and issues coming in/out of breaks in his route.

 

I’m not sure Davis’ issue is actually his hands when it’s a clean toss and catch.

 

Towards your point, I read somewhere that Davis had something like an 80% completion rate for on-target balls.  (He's also been unable to haul in a couple of frustrating throws that hit him right in the hands in the end zone)

 

The thing is, in real life when QBs are under pressure and WR are jammed and stuff, where WR differentiate themselves is, as you say, the ability to make contested catches when the DB gets his hand in there, the ability to adjust and haul in an off target ball, the ability to cut sharply and gain separation. 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Beck Water

[BillsVet]

3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I’m just glad they’re starting to use shakur I was worried that they were not going to be able to find a way to use him and he was going to get away

 

We need these later round picks to pan out now that we’re paying a franchise quarterback

 

2pac did get away, is alive, and gone full Machiavelli now.  

[SoMAn]

I like Shakir.
Last year he showed flashes as a rookie. I can’t understand why he’s kept under wraps instead of giving him game experience to develop chemistry with Josh to make the most of his skills. Instead, they bring in Beasley and Brown, then Harty and Sherfield while effectively ignoring the diamond in the rough waiting to be polished. 
This may sound premature, but I believe if used properly and given the opportunity, he could be a player who might remind us of Andre Reed.  
Diggs, Davis, Shakir, Kincaid, and Cook coming out of the backfield would create tough matchups for most defenses.
 Especially if they fully incorporate the faster tempo they employed Thursday night.  The added bonus of a more frequent 11 formation with that personnel would be opening lanes for Josh to run through if the play design cleared out the middle of the secondary. Go ahead, keep a spy in there. Good luck covering the that group of sure-handed skill players.  
The 2 TE setup didn’t result in the dynamic offense they’re capable of fielding.
  With the Bills injury-depleted defense, they’ll need to rely more on scoring and creating separation with big leads. The offense has the players to make it happen. 

[DCofNC]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

No disrespect at all here, but this is the stuff that makes no sense to me.  On what grounds can you definitively say Shakir is “far” from having great hands?  The thing I hear the most is the catch over turned in the playoffs last year that was more difficult than multiple drops Diggs has had this year.
 

The sample size is too small to decide anything about Shakir’s hands but people still keep selling this narrative.  I mean Shakir and Kincaid have been the most reliable pass catchers on the team in 2023 so far.
 

To be clear and fair, it’s also equally too early to say he has great hands because again the sample size is too small.  But the kid has been great when called upon this year in his second season and has also been a good blocker too.  
 

I’ve been beating the drum for this kid since he was drafted, all offseason and throughout the season to be more involved.  And he’s done nothing but produce when given those chances here in year 2 but still see so many people with this narrative that so far is not accurate about his hands being unreliable.

There’s a lot of college experience to look at.  He’s no where near as bad as Davis, but you also need to realize a large part of why you don’t have a bigger sample size was the drop/ reception rate last year.  In 20 targets he had 2 drops, 10% rate, and a 50% reception rate.  His college experience shows similar track record.  He’s got a lot of skills in the open field, but a great WR, he was not.

[Prospector]

8 hours ago, Chaos said:

KIncaid made a couple of catches against the Bucs that were not great throws.  But he made the catches in stride and without drama.  This is something no one on the Bills in the Josh Allen era has really done, with the possible exception of Diggs. 

This... in the first couple comments, you nailed it. Thanks

[boyst]

This is the type of play we need right now. Also wish we could have got sam prejine. 

[Mikie2times]

These stats might have a loose correlation with hands but not much more.  What they do show is both players doing a good job at converting targets into receptions. Which is impressive because running backs dominate this list. So to even show up as a TE or WR is very positive. 

[Beast]

Shakir has elite hands?

 

And I’m the Queen of England!

[Augie]

5 minutes ago, Beast said:

Shakir has elite hands?

 

And I’m the Queen of England!

 

Do those with bad knees get out of the old curtesy thing? ADA strikes again! 

 

 

 

[Dr. Who]

12 minutes ago, Beast said:

Shakir has elite hands?

 

And I’m the Queen of England!

How you doing Camilla? Give Charles my regards.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

On what grounds can you definitively say Shakir is “far” from having great hands?  

 

 

"Great" hands is dropping around 2%.   Hopkins had several season under 2% on like 150+ targets.   That was great.

 

Shakir would have to catch his next 63 straight to get to 2% for his career(not counting the playoff drop).

 

Shakir had a higher drop % than Gabe Davis last regular season/playoffs........which is to say VERY far from great.  

 

Shakir also had a bunch of egregious drops in preseason which is why some media speculated he might get cut.    

 

So it's fair to say he is "far" from having "great" hands.

 

The eye test should also tell you that he's not a confident hands catcher.    He tried to body catch the best pass of this season from Josh Allen and it bounced off his pads.......wasn't considered a drop but you want your receivers to catch those passes.    He body caught half his catches Thursday night.    Still fair to say that his "hands" are questionable.     

[Mr. WEO]

all of this may be true, but it's worth mentioning that Kincaid's first 5 games he caught a mostly very short passes and Shakir has 15 targets all year. 

[MasterStrategist]

I wouldn't say Shakir has elite hands, given he's shown to drop some easy ones (college, LY, and this year).  BUT, he does make the occasional elite contested catch.  

 

He also has the "slippery" YAC ability, and should absolutely be getting more reps. He also has ability to get open against man, similar to Harty.

 

Been saying, we needed more Shakir/Harty opportunities.  Offense really gets into a rhythm when spreading the targets.

 

Not much to say about Dalton, other than Stud.  He's smooth as it comes getting upfield after catch, and he does have elite/best hands on the team.  

 

I'll start to feel really confident, if the offense can repeat/show up similar next week against Cinci.  We need this type of performance against elite teams.

[billsherd]

Dalton was at the raptors game.

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, billsherd said:

Dalton was at the raptors game.

That’s cool. He was a basketball player before he played football so it makes a lot of sense. Did they announce him? How did the crowd react? And before anyone freaks out, the Bills are off until Monday.