Fitzpatrick's veiled criticism of Dorsey?

[sunshynman]

Fritz is a fan. He is echoing what we are saying. I don't see much difference in Dorsey from Daboll. Other than the weird routes where receivers are ending up next to each other. The biggest flaw is the both try to make the wrong play work and the wrong time. They out smart themselves. And honestly If I was Josh, I would check out of those plays. 

[Mister Defense]

Lol

 

That was part of his analysis that was clearly not "veiled critcism"! No gray area there!

 

That would almost be like saying Mike Robinson's pre-game words were that, when he ripped into Dorsey's schemes as the primary cause of the Bills' offense's problems, and ended by clearly indicating his belief that the Dorsey/Allen combo should be revisited (ended) in the 'off-season" (or tomorrow).

 

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, MarkKelso'sHelmet said:

Forgive me if this has already been discussed elsewhere. . .

 

but in the Amazon halftime show, it seems like Fitzmagic gave a muted criticism of Dorsey, both the goal line call and running the bootleg (he had banged up his shoulder and it's the wrong call). "Let's take those nakeds out of the game" is the direct quote.

 

This should be brought up to McDermott. 

 

Fitzmagic for coordinator??

 

 

Don't think that was criticism of Dorsey, particularly. Just a suggestion, particularly after seeing him showing pain during this game.

 

We saw the camera close-ups of Josh's reaction. The coaches were likely looking elsewhere, without closeups, and have direct access to Josh himself and to the doctors.

 

It was and is a reasonable opinion. I don't necessarily see criticism, though.

[Not at the table Karlos]

2 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

The play that bugged me was the 2nd and short at end of 3rd quarter.  They’re up two scores, should be milking clock, and they rush to get a play in and Allen takes a 10 yard loss.  Did you get any sense whether that was a coach’s call versus Allen called that on his own?

We do that a lot. The entire bucs DL jumped Offside. There should have been a bunch of flags but the refs were incompetent as usual. 

[SectionC3]

5 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

I have been patient with the offense and the play calls but I’ve finally had it with Dorsey.  4th down near the goal line and there’s Josh in shotgun with an empty backfield.  The following pass was actually close to being a pick six.  Ugh!
 

I don’t understand why you don’t have a RB in the backfield to at least show the threat of a run.  In that small space of the end zone, how many receivers can you really have out in that situation?

The third down call there is more the one that I have an issue with.  Although, on fourth down Diggs broke the huddle pretty quickly and it looked as if he was unhappy with the play call - 

[Dopey]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

 He probably thought he was coaching smart. McDermott use to be one of the top coaches going for 4th and a few yards. Now he’s turned into Mike Tomlin.

each game is its own. he's gone for it plenty on 4th this year. and has been successful at it. 

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

The first punt was 4th & 4 before the delay of game with 3:00 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter. That one was definitely the correct call by McDermott.

 

The problem was the following punt. That one was initially a 4th & 2 with 10:00 minutes to go in the 4th. The problem there was by that time Tampa was clearly in "no punt" mode and it is really hard to stop an NFL offense when they get 4 plays per set of downs instead of 3. McDermott should have trusted the offense to get 2 yards and essentially end the game right there.

 

The 4th & 2 was certainly a closer call, but I still think punting was the correct one in this case. But the risk-reward was not there IMO. With 10 min left the upside if we would make it is gaining another set of downs and running down the clock another couple minutes. The downside of not making it is giving the Bucs great field position and a morale boost. They’d have a real opportunity to score quickly and have plenty of time to get the ball back and make a longer drive. With TB unable (to that point) to sustain a long drive, punting was the way to go. The best outcome for TB was what they got - a long TD drive that burned a ton of clock. It wasn’t the sexy call, but it was the prudent one. 

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

 

I think the conservative approach on those drives is fair game for criticism, but ahead 24-10,  I agree, I think the punts were absolutely the correct call.  That's especially true when you have no idea what kind of shotgun BS play Ken Dorsey is going to dial up in short yardage.

I agree. Plus with Allen’s shoulder dinged up I don’t like running him so that would take another option off of the table. 

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

59 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

We do that a lot. The entire bucs DL jumped Offside. There should have been a bunch of flags but the refs were incompetent as usual. 

 

Not just the refs. Sleepy Al and Dopey Kirk didn't say anything about it either. The broadcast team was abysmal.

[4merper4mer]

3 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

The play that bugged me was the 2nd and short at end of 3rd quarter.  They’re up two scores, should be milking clock, and they rush to get a play in and Allen takes a 10 yard loss.  Did you get any sense whether that was a coach’s call versus Allen called that on his own?

I think the Bills only snapped it because Tampa jumped so it should have been a free play.  The refs missed it.  Hard to blame Dorsey or Allen for that

[DuckyBoys]

red zone play calls were once again mystifying  That bubble screen almost was a pick 6  Why not qb sneak from under center or handoff on third and a foot?  I wot blame Dorsey for 4th quarter  Those calls has McDermott written all over them  Play not to lose as always  Some positives  Nice to see answer to the blitz and bubble screens fast passing game got multiple guys involved  Feel like they left at least 10 points off the board with some dumb nonsense

[4merper4mer]

4 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

that Josh was making a read is a fail there 

Huh?  Defenses aren’t allowed to disguise things?  Josh too incapable?  Why is it that you expect an NFL QB to be a robot?  We shouldn’t have ever been in 4th and 2.  That’s on Dorsey.  Given we were, the play call was fine and recognition/pump fake = easy TD.

[AlfaBill]

5 hours ago, Xwnyer said:

The punts baffled me.  Coaching  scared

No it’s coaching smart. The Bucs O was horrid last night. Why give them any opportunities? In todays NFL everyone goes on 4th down and it’s exhausting. In last nights game, the game inside the game, they were the right calls. Perhaps over the next few games with the Bungles and Chefs you go for it if the situation calls for it

[Einstein's Dog]

3 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

 

In more cases than not I’d agree with you that going for it would be the correct call, but not in this game in the situation they were in. TB had not been able to move the ball on us and pinning them deep had worked well. I called for the punt both times before we did it. IMO it was good situational coaching.  

I agree with you.  And while I usually like the aggressive mode, sometimes I think you need to back off.   Our short yardage offense is no gimme.

 

I am hoping McD learned from the Giants game.  i didn't like the long field goal attempt vs the punt in that situation.  This time he was going to make them go the whole field, and while it was still scary, it wasn't as scary as when the Giants got down to the one.

[strive_for_five_guy]

26 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

I think the Bills only snapped it because Tampa jumped so it should have been a free play.  The refs missed it.  Hard to blame Dorsey or Allen for that

Anyone got video of the play?  I’d like to confirm if Tampa actually jumped offside or not, and what actually happened on the play altogether.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Dopey said:

each game is its own. he's gone for it plenty on 4th this year. and has been successful at it. 

Less than recent year though. It kept the game closer than it should’ve. But that’s what happens when you punt 4 times in a row.

[PauleeeWalnuts]

2 hours ago, Araiza Curse said:

I would seriously hire Fitz as an OC to replace Dorsey. Dude is smart. 

It would be awesome but not mid - season. Can’t expect these guys to learn a new playbook now so it would just be Fitz running from the same plays. The guy knows the game, he loves it in Buffalo, he should have a job somewhere in the organization. 

[BarleyNY]

5 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I agree with you.  And while I usually like the aggressive mode, sometimes I think you need to back off.   Our short yardage offense is no gimme.

 

I am hoping McD learned from the Giants game.  i didn't like the long field goal attempt vs the punt in that situation.  This time he was going to make them go the whole field, and while it was still scary, it wasn't as scary as when the Giants got down to the one.

 

Agreed. I’m a firm believer that analytics and statistics should inform decisions, not dictate them. Details and nuances often are not accounted for in them and I think we saw a good situational coaching job last night that considered those nuances. 

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

Huh?  Defenses aren’t allowed to disguise things?  Josh too incapable?  Why is it that you expect an NFL QB to be a robot?  We shouldn’t have ever been in 4th and 2.  That’s on Dorsey.  Given we were, the play call was fine and recognition/pump fake = easy TD.

I expect us to run Josh (possibly twice) and kick an extra point 

 

that we had a shotgun run followed by a pass was the issue. Sure the play wasn’t well executed, but no execution should’ve really been asked. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by NoSaint

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Anyone got video of the play?  I’d like to confirm if Tampa actually jumped offside or not, and what actually happened on the play altogether.

I don’t,  They definitely jumped.  Whether they got to the neutral zone or not I couldn’t say.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

The 4th & 2 was certainly a closer call, but I still think punting was the correct one in this case. But the risk-reward was not there IMO. With 10 min left the upside if we would make it is gaining another set of downs and running down the clock another couple minutes. The downside of not making it is giving the Bucs great field position and a morale boost. They’d have a real opportunity to score quickly and have plenty of time to get the ball back and make a longer drive. With TB unable (to that point) to sustain a long drive, punting was the way to go. The best outcome for TB was what they got - a long TD drive that burned a ton of clock. It wasn’t the sexy call, but it was the prudent one. 

 

I think the criticism is a bit warranted since we were plus 14 for a lot of the 2nd half and we stalled out just outside FG range 4 straight times.  10 more yards on any of those first 3 drives and were looking at a 3 score game.  

[Warcodered]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

That's ultimately on the coaches though. Morse snapped the ball so clearly the plan was to snap it if a defensive player jumped Offside. Allen and Morse didn't go rogue, that was the call. The problem with that plan is that you're asking players on the field to identify an Offside, and if they're wrong you get a really stupid looking outcome. Honestly a smart coach would tell his defense to intentionally fake jump Offside in obvious situations like that. On 2nd and 1 there's just no need for that trickery. Get to the 4th quarter and run James Cook on the next play.

 

It did look like they were Offside we just didn't get the call that time, either way it doesn't matter, because whether you get the call or not you still have to ***** block!

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

10 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

I have been patient with the offense and the play calls but I’ve finally had it with Dorsey.  4th down near the goal line and there’s Josh in shotgun with an empty backfield.  The following pass was actually close to being a pick six.  Ugh!
 

I don’t understand why you don’t have a RB in the backfield to at least show the threat of a run.  In that small space of the end zone, how many receivers can you really have out in that situation?

 

10 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It’s nothing new as Daboll did this all the time but Dorsey needs to end it. I get spreading out the defense but you can do that under center.

 

This has been a problem for a long time with the Bills at the goal line.

 

While I agree being in shotgun seems really dumb and not defending it, I too was not happy seeing that.  But does make me wonder if:

 

Last week prior to NE game, G Davis was quoted as saying something along the lines of "We need to run more plays were most comfortable with"  So does make me wonder if Allen keeps telling Dorsey, I want to be in shotgun as I recall reading more than once Allen prefers shotgun.??

[TheFunPolice]

I don't think it was really veiled at all

[DuckyBoys]

did Dorsey go super conservative those last 4 drives all on his own or is he doing what McDermott instructed?

[Mango]

9 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

I’m with you on the third down play 100%, but the 4th down play was not on Dorsey.  It was on Josh.  You’re really blaming the IC for the QB missing a read?

 

Josh had a good night.  I counted three bad plays.  That was one of them.

 

I have been pretty critical of Josh's decision making and the fact that just because he can complete some passes, doesn't mean he should. I think Dorsey overall called a pretty good game last night, but it is fair to criticize that not getting behind center on 3rd or 4th down, and trying to punch it in was just a bad concept. 

 

[Draconator]

1 minute ago, DuckyBoys said:

did Dorsey go super conservative those last 4 drives all on his own or is he doing what McDermott instructed?

veery good point

[CincyBillsFan]

17 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said:

did Dorsey go super conservative those last 4 drives all on his own or is he doing what McDermott instructed?

I'm guessing McD instructed him to do it.

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

11 hours ago, Xwnyer said:

The punts baffled me.  Coaching  scared

Agree....I guess unless we're playing KC, Cincy, Mia or Philly, you can expect a high level of conservative play (as usual) from McD once we get a double digit lead.

[Sherlock Holmes]

14 hours ago, MarkKelso'sHelmet said:

Forgive me if this has already been discussed elsewhere. . .

 

but in the Amazon halftime show, it seems like Fitzmagic gave a muted criticism of Dorsey, both the goal line call and running the bootleg (he had banged up his shoulder and it's the wrong call). "Let's take those nakeds out of the game" is the direct quote.

 

This should be brought up to McDermott. 

 

Fitzmagic for coordinator??

As long as he goes pantsless as well as shirtless on the sideline

[4merper4mer]

3 hours ago, Mango said:

 

I have been pretty critical of Josh's decision making and the fact that just because he can complete some passes, doesn't mean he should. I think Dorsey overall called a pretty good game last night, but it is fair to criticize that not getting behind center on 3rd or 4th down, and trying to punch it in was just a bad concept. 

 

3rd down I agree, but on 4th down it was two yards, not one foot.  I’m ok in shotgun there.  Not saying it should be 100% of the time, just that it is in the mix.

[BobbyC81]

20 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Is Mike Shula and Joe Brady still on the staff? If so, what's their purpose? 

I was recently thinking the same thing.  If they’re all not on the same page, that could be causing problems.  I did notice on the broadcast they showed Josh talking on the bench with Brady, who was showing him something on the tablet.

[BarleyNY]

22 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I think the criticism is a bit warranted since we were plus 14 for a lot of the 2nd half and we stalled out just outside FG range 4 straight times.  10 more yards on any of those first 3 drives and were looking at a 3 score game.  

 

I think you have to consider the possibility that TB was finally adjusting to the Bills offensive game plan and was defending it better. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Bootleg plays are pretty safe it’s basically just you vs one edge rusher and the vast majority of the time you can easily get rid of the ball.  Fitz knows this I don’t really understand the criticism on that play on particular.   Looked like josh came out of the play action too shallow…should’ve just thrown the ball away 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[WideNine]

On 10/27/2023 at 4:55 AM, FireChans said:

Daboll let Josh run when spread out, which was basically back-breaking for defenses. If they spied, it was single coverage and bbq chicken. If they didn’t, Josh could look and pull it down if nothing was there.

 

Leave it to Kenny to call the same plays with a fundamental misunderstanding of why it worked lmao

 

A bit of an oversimplification.

 

The spread worked till it didn't and then the sky was falling, Josh is getting blown up, the OL can't hold blocks for 5 seconds, or they are making Allen run for his life, or they don't run the ball enough with our RBs to take some of the pressure off Josh.

 

This year they wanted Kincaid in the lineup (for obvious reasons), but felt Knox was too important to keep off the field.

 

That is likely the most plausible reason they went to more 12 personnel which most good offensive teams traditionally use more than the Bills any ways and there is a lot you can run out of that set.

 

With Knox out they went to 11 personnel or empty on occasion. That is familiar ground for this offense and a good move on a short week and considering we are short on TE's.

 

One could argue that we could stick with more 11 with Shakir for Knox, hard to ignore what he brings to a game. Maybe Knox subbing in for Davis if and when Knox is healthy for 12 personnel plays.

 

The tempo and execution was good and Allen knew where to go with the ball to beat the blitzes and when to take off when their LBs and S's were manned up leaving open field for Allen to gallop through.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by WideNine

[Low Positive]

3 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Bootleg plays are pretty safe it’s basically just you vs one edge rusher and the vast majority of the time you can easily get rid of the ball.  Fitz knows this I don’t really understand the criticism on that play on particular.   Looked like josh came out of the play action too shallow…should’ve just thrown the ball away 

Because he drew the “be critical of the Bills card” in the pregame production meeting?

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 10/27/2023 at 9:05 AM, colin said:

 

I didn't agree w this at first, and frankly not certain i do now, but this is a good point.  

 

to me the real failing of dorsey tonight was showing a lack of feel for the game.  2nd and long runs out of shot gun for no gain/loss, shot gun run on 3rd and inches at the goal line, and this goofy quick screen to the te on 4th and 1 on the goal line is just all a bit goofy.

 

if allen sneaks 2 times in a row, i'd say we have about a 90% chance of getting over a yard.

 

I didn't agree w this at first, and frankly not certain i do now, but this is a good point.  

 

to me the real failing of dorsey tonight was showing a lack of feel for the game.  2nd and long runs out of shot gun for no gain/loss, shot gun run on 3rd and inches at the goal line, and this goofy quick screen to the te on 4th and 1 on the goal line is just all a bit goofy.

 

if allen sneaks 2 times in a row, i'd say we have about a 90% chance of getting over a yard.

For Dorsey's standards, he called a pretty good game. All we can hope is he can build on it and continue incorporating the run heavily into his game plan.

[NoSaint]

On 10/27/2023 at 1:40 PM, Mango said:

 

I have been pretty critical of Josh's decision making and the fact that just because he can complete some passes, doesn't mean he should. I think Dorsey overall called a pretty good game last night, but it is fair to criticize that not getting behind center on 3rd or 4th down, and trying to punch it in was just a bad concept. 

 

I’ll keep referring to thursdays playcalling as a good husband that got caught cheating. Dorsey took out the trash, kept up the house, was kind…. And had catastrophic possibly unforgivable lapses.

 

are you willing to go into the Super Bowl with a guy that is unable to handle such a basic situation if it’s a 1 score game in the 4th and the trophy is on the line? Say its overtime on the first drive of the big game? Ok with shotgun run with Murray followed by a pass?

[without a drought]

On 10/27/2023 at 2:40 PM, DuckyBoys said:

did Dorsey go super conservative those last 4 drives all on his own or is he doing what McDermott instructed?

I think we know the answer to that.

[T master]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:09 AM, BobbyC81 said:

I have been patient with the offense and the play calls but I’ve finally had it with Dorsey.  4th down near the goal line and there’s Josh in shotgun with an empty backfield.  The following pass was actually close to being a pick six.  Ugh!
 

I don’t understand why you don’t have a RB in the backfield to at least show the threat of a run.  In that small space of the end zone, how many receivers can you really have out in that situation?

 

Not to mention wasn't that why they brought in the bigger RB's that they did to take some of the running & short yardage away from Josh ? I only makes perfect sense to have a RB in at the goal line even fans know that much ...